Vonset???

[Fernando]

Well, If I ever begin to become younger, I will wait to be a 5-year-old child and I will ask my mammy to purchase it. But she is dead, I have no parents at hand......

Fern

[samson]

Dear Tibono2,

Very very thank you for your support for our Vonset L6. As you described, our intention for the L6 is to cater more to younger chess players, accompanying them in playing and practicing chess and encouraging them to have more confidence to challenge AI opponents of higher levels. In the future, we will continue to develop more products in both the amateur and professional fields, making playing and practicing chess more fun. Thank you for your support.

If we have new products coming out in the future, we welcome you to come to me at any time for a cost-price experience. Thank you.

Best Regards
Samson

All,
I am still in the process of tournaments for Computer Elo evaluation for the L6, set to level 19.

On another hand, the adverts for this product obviously target parents keen on offering a chess opponent and coach to their children, and the design itself complies with such a use. As Samson wrote in this thread, I quote: 'Our brand concept is to apply the power of technology, especially artificial intelligence, in the field of family companionship, to accompany children and the elderly.' And indeed, I plan to leverage the L6 to raise some interest about chess for my own grandchildren.

That's why I wanted to also test the lowest levels in some way. Sparring the L6 with my Lexibook Chesslight has been a nobrainer to me!
I started from the lowest available beginner level from both devices, level 1 for the Vonset L6, level A1 for the Lexibook Chesslight (they range from A1 to A5).

My plan was to increase the Vonset L6 level after each game, whilst increasing the Lexibook Chesslight level only after a win by the Vonset. The Vonset always played first (white color, so).

Vonset L6 levels 1 to 5 were dominated by Lexibook Chesslight level A1 (5 losses for the L6).
From lv. 6 to 10, Vonset L6 mostly dominated the Chesslight A1, but did not win a single game (4 draws, 1 loss). It just avoided any win, either reaching stalemate or three-fold repetition. Only level 11 for the Vonset enabled achieving a win after its large domination over the Chesslight A1.

This gave no clue about the respective levels, I could just notice the Vonset play was indeed, step by step and level after level, getting slightly "stronger" (ok, rather "less weak"). So I decided to change the process, and raise the level for the Lexibook not only if it lost a game, but also in the advent of a draw. This means a draw would be considered a success for the Vonset, and trigger an increased challenge for next game.

I thus resumed the games after the first draw, achieved by level 6 vs A1, with the game Vonset lv.7 vs Chesslight lv. A2.

The Vonset was dominated, and lost. Next two games were losses as well, Vonset L6 lv. 8 and 9 dominated the Chesslight A2, but standing by the ostensible commitment not to win, finally ended as losers. L6 level 10 dominated as well, up to three Queens circling around the opponent King alone, carefully avoiding the mate, up to 3-rep draw.

The above draw let me increase both levels, L6 to lv.11, and Chesslight to lv.A3. The L6 dominated, but blundered and lost to a corridor mate. Lv.12 struggled to balance the game, then dominated, and again lost to a corridor mate.

Level 13 won convincingly (still against level beginner A3), so level 14 had to play Chesslight A4: the game was balanced until middle game, then dominated by the Vonset, and won again. Therefore I kept the level 14 unchanged for the L6, and raised the Chesslight to level A5, but no way: the Vonset easily won again.

As a conclusion: levels 1 to 10 can be named "play and win", they are just sparring partners that won't hurt you, as a golden rule. Maybe an interesting starting point for children, assuming you want to take care of their motivation.
Level 11 is the milestone for a first bit of a challenge: the computer will be kind, will sometimes blunder, but will achieve a win if you let it excessively dominate. To my humble opinion, a must for learning purpose, and for real fun. The playing level then raises noticeably with each increase in the level setting, despite instant response until level 15. I would therefore consider levels 11 to 15 as the truly interesting training levels.

(Of course, I can make the games available as a pgn file, should anyone want them. Just PM me.)

Enjoy a nice Easter weekend,
Eric

[samson]

Dear Fernando,

We have received your message and will keep exploring. We are actively exploring products in the professional field. We are considering developing an app to present more professional data. I will keep in touch with you when the time comes to discuss any areas for improvement in our products. Thank you.

Best Regards
Samson

Well, If I ever begin to become younger, I will wait to be a 5-year-old child and I will ask my mammy to purchase it. But she is dead, I have no parents at hand......

Fern

[Fernando]

Samsom, you are polite and nice even if facing not very amiable words. I suppose that has to do with Chinese education and commercial acumen, both at the same time.
Yes, when you have a really challenging product, I will be prepared to purchase it.
Please try to include at least one or two of the features I described. When there are so many options in the market, better to add extra frills.

my best regards
Fern

[samson]

Dear Fernando,

No problem. Your suggestions are very important to us. We really attach great importance to it and integrate it into our products step by step. I will keep in touch with you in the future. Discuss more professional product issues with you at any time. My email is liaojunqu@vonsetchess.com. Is it convenient for you to leave your email?

Best Regards
Samson

Samsom, you are polite and nice even if facing not very amiable words. I suppose that has to do with Chinese education and commercial acumen, both at the same time.
Yes, when you have a really challenging product, I will be prepared to purchase it.
Please try to include at least one or two of the features I described. When there are so many options in the market, better to add extra frills.

my best regards
Fern

[Fernando]

No problem:
ferdinanvd@gmail.com

[Tibono2]

Hello dear all,
I think I collected enough data for a first rough estimate of a CElo (Computer Elo) for the L6 smart board device.

I started with 6 gauntlets games, 1645 average opponents, chosen to reach 50% win for the L6. I did not keep this score for granted (too few games) but used it to select the opponents the L6 would face in a first 16 chess programs tournament, 4 swiss rounds, 8 games per competitor. The average strength over the tournament was 1645.5 (intentionnaly balanced around the 1st evaluation of the L6, with a spread ~100 Elo points, from 1595 to 1695).

As announced I used level 19 for the L6, and 15s/move for the other competitors.

The L6 could not stand the strength level of this tournament, landing with 25% wins facing 1632 CElo (averaged) opponents. This led to a first registered value = 1441 CElo.

I then started a second tournament, same conditions (16 competitors, swiss system, 4 rounds of two games, alternatively playing black & white).
1440 was the average CElo of this second tournament (again balanced +/- 50 points with the L6 previous score as the middle value).

The L6 has been more successful in this one, achieving 50% wins facing opponents ranked 1461 on average. The performance of the L6 over this second tournament was therefore 1461.

As both tournaments provided very consistent values, I can report the average 1451 CElo as my first estimate for level 19.

This competition score can be thought somewhat low with regards to the good KT score previously shared. The main reason is the lack of any time management; rather a search depth scaled according to the chosen level. As a visible consequence, the thinking pace is unbalanced, with much longer search time in middlegame positions, and very short search in the endgame. Of course this is far from optimal use of the allowed thinking time by any tournament rules. As a consequence, the average thinking time over 22 games & 1,240 moves was 7.2 seconds (7.8s for computed moves, excluding the ones played instantly from the opening library). This was of course a handicap facing opponents making better use of the granted 15s/move.
The L6 fastest game used 2.4s/move on average, the slowest 19.8s/move (23.8s/computed move).

On average, 4.2 moves were played from the L6 opening library; min 1 and max 7.

I also replayed the 8 x L6 games from the first tournament (the one ranked with 1645.5 average) testing the level 20 of the L6, to get a better clue of the average thinking time for this level, and strength. It expectedly fared better with 50% wins facing the same average opponent = 1632, thus a tournament performance of 1632. The average thinking time was 17.4s/move (19.3s/computed move) over 8 games and 433 moves. The fastest game used 6.6s/move on average, the slowest 31.9s/move (37.4s/computed move). This might comply with a 30s/move tournament rule, but anyway is too slow to fit 15s/move.

In addition to figures, my subjective opinion: despite being a handicap in timed games, the fast play from late middlegame to endgame is pleasant from a human player standpoint. The L6 style is rather dynamic, daring to attack without complete assessment this would have a positive outcome; I suspect a significantly selective search. On another hand, even on level 19 or 20, it can blunder and lose a piece, short of not so deep a calculation. Therefore the overall strength is not so high, but it is to my opinion a pleasant opponent for casual games, with a human-like style.

Well, the board is pleasant to use, the chess AI is pleasant to play (starting from level 11), the build quality is fine: the device deserves consideration for casual players (as I am). In addition, it is attractive and simple to use for children, with very soft playing levels to enable playing with a kind opponent (up to level 10). Worth its price to my opinion, congrats to the design team who dared to uplift this product way above the devices we were used to (the "old Levy chess computers that have been around for many years", as Bryan wrote). Well done!

Tibono

[Tibono2]

And it is now displayed as part of my collection, here.
(also available in my native language, French, here.)

Cheers,
Tibono

[keckteh]

Hello

A very exhaustive and detailed analysis. Thank you so much.

[Tibono2]

Thanks for this kind feedback, keckteh. Appreciated!

[keckteh]

To you for your effort

[ScouseScally]

I'm a newbie, so I apologise if i'm posting this in the wrong place. First off, Id like to thank everyone who has previously commented on the DGT Centaur, thank you, especially "Scally" very informative, even if half of it went over my head. I was hoping to just post a question but couldn't see where I needed to post the question about this set. So, my question is; In the 2nd hand market (that's all I can afford) who are the main competitors that are worthy of checking out? FTR, I'm not rated but I'm probably around 1600 and would just like to play on a proper board. Thanks regardless.

[Fernando]

No need to purchase an old computer. Internet is plenty of engines with every level of strength. I recommend the program "Lucas Chess" which is free. There you will get everything, including many engines that you can set at the level you prefer.
Now, if you still insist on getting a dedicated unit, take a look at eBay. Machines orf around the middle of the 80s are already strong enough for a 16o0 player.

Fern

[fourthirty]

No need to purchase an old computer. Internet is plenty of engines with every level of strength. I recommend the program "Lucas Chess" which is free. There you will get everything, including many engines that you can set at the level you prefer.
Now, if you still insist on getting a dedicated unit, take a look at eBay. Machines orf around the middle of the 80s are already strong enough for a 16o0 player.

Fern

This is great advice by Fern. Now that some new chess computers are being released, I've seen some great deals on eBay on some classic computers, such as the Novag Obsidian or Fidelity Excellence.

If interested in a new computer at low cost, you can start with the Millennium Chess Genius:
https://computerchess.com/en/ChessGenius/M810

Good luck,
Greg

[Steve B]

Hi Greg

thats a very solid choice
actually its one of my favorite smaller chess computers

During Christmas 2017 Millennium raffled off a limited edition piece set to 50 registered owners which could be used with the Chess Genius
the pieces are a bit thicker and have felt bottoms covering the magnets



https://www.flickr.com/photos/10261668@ ... ateposted/

No. 7/50 Regards
Steve