Collector's Corner..On Dedicated Chess Computers...

[spacious_mind]

I have a suspicion that 375-1 plays a little stronger from what I saw in my tournament (won it's group) I played 375 earlier for a couple of games in my tournament but it didnt give me the sense of being as good. I might have to play them head to head.

hi Nick
you were right about the 375-1!

i just now received this from a very reliable source

The 375-1 was a software upgrade of the 375.
In addition the program was designed to be a universal chip that was used in
multiple products like Touch Chess, King Arthur and Chess Station.

The software improvement was the addition of adding killer moves to the
beginning of the list of moves under consideration.
Principle Variation move, Killer moves (2), captures, and finally
non-captures.
This change gave a significant speed up and probably raised its chess rating
by 100 points.

as to the Karpov 2294 ....
I dont own the ECP but i asked this same source at the time of the 2294's Release and it was confirmed they use the same program

however independent confirmation is always of course welcome




Best Regards
Steve

Hi Steve

Excellent ! Thanks a lot for the new tidbits of information.

Perhaps your friend can help me find answers to this question.

Does he know the differences between Igor, Ivan, Alexandra and Ivan II?

I know that Igor and Ivan PONDER and Alexandra and Ivan II do not. I played recently a little mini tournament between these 4 and the order of ranking was:
1) Igor
2) Ivan
3) Alexandra
4) Ivan II

As expected the two that Ponder came 1 and 2. However since the opening book was 100% identical for all 4 and the level settings for Igor and Ivan or Alexandra and Ivan II are the same there is a quick tendency to say that Igor and Ivan are the same and Alexandra and Ivan II are the same. However without doing positional tests my game experience told me that.
1) Igor is the strongest and stronger then Ivan
2) Alexandra is stronger then Ivan II
3) Igor and Alexandra play the nicest chess
4) Ivan and Ivan II play a weaker chess

So taking Ponder away and any other differences my first impression is to say that Igor and Alexandra have similar software configurations and and Ivan and Ivan II have similar software configurations, but all 4 have the same base program but somehow set up differently.

I am having some discussions about this with a friend and I will be doing some positional tests shortly to see if this helps to clarify the differences.

So anyway it would be nice to know what you or your friend know about these 4 programs as well as perhaps also Grandmaster, Mirage, DTTC and Touch Chess II which are all likely closely related with regards to the chess software.

ps. It looks like I now have to find space for # 375 in my tournament since it is different

All the best

[Steve B]

Does he know the differences between Igor, Ivan, Alexandra and Ivan II?

sorry Nick but i do not own any of these computers and it is not a good idea for me to burden my source with too many questions all at one time


Best Regards
Steve

[spacious_mind]

Does he know the differences between Igor, Ivan, Alexandra and Ivan II?

sorry Nick but i do not own any of these computers and it is not a good idea for me to burden my source with too many questions all at one time


Best Regards
Steve

Ah well....sighing.. worth a try. The quest for logic continues...

In search of Spock regards

[Steve B]

Does he know the differences between Igor, Ivan, Alexandra and Ivan II?

sorry Nick but i do not own any of these computers and it is not a good idea for me to burden my source with too many questions all at one time


Best Regards
Steve

Ah well....sighing.. worth a try. The quest for logic continues...

sorry Nick i hope you understand

however all is not lost..

you should contact Hein Veldhuis who i am sure you know has amassed the worlds largest database on almost all chess computers ever released for sale as well as prototypes
he will most certainly have good information on every computer you mentioned
if you do not already have his email address then PM me and i will give it to you
he is very friendly and always helps out a fellow collector
whenever i have a question about a specific chess computer..
He is THE MAN
you can tell him i sent you


The Master Archivist..




Thirst For Knowledge Regards
Steve

[spacious_mind]

sorry Nick i hope you understand

however all is not lost..

you should contact Hein Veldhuis who i am sure you know has amassed the worlds largest database on almost all chess computers ever released for sale as well as prototypes
he will most certainly have good information on every computer you mentioned
if you do not already have his email address then PM me and i will give it to you
he is very friendly and always helps out a fellow collector
whenever i have a question about a specific chess computer..
He is THE MAN
you can tell him i sent you


The Master Archivist..




Thirst For Knowledge Regards
Steve

Steve:

I was not really sulking ! Just acting for the audience

But still I appreciate all your help as I always do. Thanks for the info on Hein and if I need it sometime then I will of course contact him and use you shamelessly as a reference !

But as you know often the quest for truth is more satisfying if you can first find the answers yourself and I am still at the finding the answer myself stage

All the best

[Steve B]

As there is currently a Saitek Brute Force module being offered on Ebay i thought i would test the one i have
programmed by Morsch it is rated 2027(SS) and runs at 10Mhz with 256k Ram
the Brute Force module is somewhat different then the other Saitek OSA modules in that the levels are divided between a normal Selective search algorithm and the Brute Force search algorithm
the BF search will enable the computer to see almost all tactical threats but not search very deeply while the SS routine will see far deeper and possibly uncover Combinations that the BF would miss




itching for a good fight i set the level to ...Brute Force Searching..30 seconds per move and i took the White pieces...

In the game ..I was out of book by move 7..
the BF Searched typically 6-7 ply

[White "Steve B"]
[Black "Saitek Brute Force"]
[Time Control "30 Sec/Move Avg."]


1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 Bb4 4.Nf3 c5 5.e3 O-O 6.Bd3 d5 7.a3
cxd4 8.Nxd4 Bxc3+ 9.bxc3 e5 10.Nb3 dxc4 11.Bxc4 Qxd1+
12.Kxd1 Rd8+ 13.Ke2 b6 14.Bb2 Bb7 15.f3 Nbd7 16.e4 Rac8 17.Bd3 Nf8
18.Rad1 Ne6 19.Bc2 Nf4+ 20.Kf2 Ba6 21.g3 Nd3+ 22.Bxd3 Rxd3 23.Rxd3 Bxd3 24.Nc1 Bc4 25.Rd1Kf8 26.Ne2 Ke7 27.Ke3 Ke6 28.h3 Nh5
29.Rg1 Rd8 30.Nc1 g6 31.f4 f5 32.fxe5 Kxe5 33.exf5
gxf5 34.g4 Nf6 35.gxf5 Nd5+ 36.Kf3 Rf8 37.Re1+ Kxf5 38.Ne2 Kg5+ 39.Kg3
Re8 40.Bc1+ Kf6 41.Kf2 Rxe2+ 42.Rxe2 Bxe2 43.Kxe2 Nxc3+

[fen]8/p6p/1p3k2/8/8/P1n4P/4K3/2B5 w - - 0 44[/fen]
ok so i just blundered away a pawn for nothing
but i felt confident that my well known endgame technique could salvage the draw for me
(well know by whom ...i dont know)

44.Kd3 Nd5 45.Ke4 Ke6 46.h4 a5 47.Bg5 b5 48.Bd2 b4 49.axb4
axb4 50.Kd4 b3 51.Bc1 Ne7 52.Kc3 Nf5 53.Kxb3 Nxh4


[fen]8/7p/4k3/8/7n/1K6/8/2B5 w - - 0 54[/fen]
this is a dead draw
as long as my Bishop can cover the black square h2.. i also need to get the King back so that black cannot place his Knight on G3 to block my bishop from covering h2

54.Bf4 Kd5 55.Kc3 h5 56.Kd3 Nf5 57.Ke2 Ke4 58.Bh2 h4 59.Kf2 Ne3 60.Kg1 Kf3 61.Bc7
Ng4 62.Bb8 h3 63.Kh1 Ne3 64.Bc7 Kg4 65.Kh2 Nf1+ 66.Kg1 Nd2
67.Kh1 Nf3 68.Bb8 Kf5

69.Bf4 !

FINAL POSITION

[fen]8/8/8/5k2/5B2/5n1p/8/7K w - - 0 69[/fen]

i thought it a nice way to show that its useless to play on by dropping my bishop smack dab into the nest of Black Pieces
of course taking the B is Stalemate
the BF wants to play 69..Nd4 but i was not in the mood to go on like this until the 50 move rule was invoked..
so i adjudicated the game as Drawn

Bring On That little Brat that beat Paul Regards
Steve

[m0nkee1]

Hi All

This is a great forum -like the games listed so far
am a bit of a chess computer fan myself.. currently have

Videomaster Chess Champion (with box instructions and charger)
c 1979 6 Levels - level 4 plays c 10 min per move and is not terrible.
Takes about 5 seconds to see its in checkmate!

Siatek Turbo Advanced Trainer - OK attacking swap off style of play.
find it draws quite quickly not very strong.

Novag Star Ruby - Nice red hand held - good range of levels.
does have a more human playing style - in mid - end game it defend well and make reasonable decisons (might be why there rating is high)
... but... The opening book is dull ( better if you play black) only has one response to e4 - And its really vulnerable to 'romantic' attacks like the leipzig gambit, I think its rating of BCF 170 is more like 150 and 50 on the wrong opening line. however its the only strong handheld on the market which is a shame.

Saiteck Chess Challenger - Quite strong good opening book, although modest it has a lot of variety . quite bias towards material. seems to get by on its tactics not a great posistonal player... not as good as...

Kasparov Executive (saitek / mephisto?) I've lost this somewhere in my uni days but it was an ace computer. It had the active / passive book options that were put on high end machines. played very well except in endgame... I think it migh be the same as the Mephisto Mystery or the barracuda - Looks identical.

I want to but a BCF 190 + machine and am tempted by the current Mephisto Master- but any idea if this has hash tables?

I've seen the Mephisto Atlanta & Berlin (plastic version) both had hash tables - any idea if these can still be bought. or there are any slightly
chepaer machine that do - were ther ever travel veriosn of these?

Cheers


Simon

[Steve B]

Hi All

I want to but a BCF 190 + machine and am tempted by the current Mephisto Master- but any idea if this has hash tables?

I've seen the Mephisto Atlanta & Berlin (plastic version) both had hash tables - any idea if these can still be bought. or there are any slightly
chepaer machine that do - were ther ever travel veriosn of these?

Simon

Hi Simon and Welcome to the Hiarcs Chess Forums
nice collection you have there!


the Master is the same program as seen in the Mephisto Senator modules and Milano Pro standalone unit
the manual for the Senator/Master/Milano Pro makes no mention of hash tables but it does have a very small amount of Ram (4k)

while the Atlanta program was also released as a set of Modules called the Magellan neither the Atlanta or Berlin were released as portables
both of these computers can no longer be bought as new today but they do appear quite often on Ebay as used computers

it should be noted that Larry in his game against Paul is using an upgraded computer to the Berlin both in term of hardware and software..called the Berlin Pro London

Best Regards
Steve

[cornetmike]

A fascinating thread! Long may it continue. I'm positive I'm not the only lurker out there following this thread but not posting anything!

didicated regards
Mikey

p.s. "Chess, like love, like music, has the power to make us happy." - Dr. S. Tarrasch

[m0nkee1]

just seen 2 barracudas on ebay - quite tempted , these are quite recent machines i think. it quote 1985 elo which sounds good but i've seen much lower elsewhere. i think it is quite strong..

Unlike the chess challenger they have a vareity of book options and selevtive search, which can be combined with the ply / time settings. a

Perfect for improving.... anyone know if there a stonger machine than the barracuda in a simialr travel foramt...? does seem like a bargain..

[Steve B]

A fascinating thread! Long may it continue. I'm positive I'm not the only lurker out there following this thread but not posting anything!

didicated regards
Mikey

p.s. "Chess, like love, like music, has the power to make us happy." - Dr. S. Tarrasch

Thanks for the kind words Mikey
always nice to know that it is not only me and my family(who are under forced duress) viewing this thread


coming soon to a thread near you..another in a looooong line of Hiarcs Chess Forum exclusives
the battle for the tiniest chess computer that ever was...

dont change that Forum Regards
Steve

[m0nkee1]

Thanks for the tips Steve

seems like Novag, Saitek don't sell there stongest machines anymore

Simon

[Steve B]

Thanks for the tips Steve

seems like Novag, Saitek don't sell there stongest machines anymore

Simon

very sad but true Simon
none of the chess computer manufacturers seem to be interested in playing strength any longer

the trend now appears to be to sell computers that will be bought by the masses where playing strength is not a huge concern

so we see the 2006 Citrine which is a beautiful wooden computer ..sold with a program that is not Novag's top of the line program
or we see the Excalibur Phantom Force Robot sold with a program that is weaker then their own Mirage Robot released 10 years ago

Still ..i am glad to see a new wooden computer released after almost ten years and i am also happy to see another Robot after ten years as well
Waxing philosophic Regards
Steve

[Steve B]

In honor of the release of the Excalibur Phantom Force..the first chess playing Robot to be released in 10 years,, i show two games i played with the Excalibur Mirage Robots which were programmed by Fidelity's Ron Nelson..released 1n 1997 and containing the same exact program as the Grandmaster
they were rated 1794 Elo .the Mirage was released in two flavors..the commonly seen Black Mirage and the far rarer Marble Mirage
only 10% of all Mirages released for sale were Marble


accompanying the two Mirages was the Fidelity Excellence 4.0
the Excellence normally was released running at 3 Mhz but Fidelity did release a faster 4 Mhz as well
programmed by the still happily married programming team of Dan and Kate Spracklen the 4.0 was rated 1784 with its slower version at 1755

the Excellence 4.0:



i always thought that Nelson secretly harboured animosity at being replaced by the Spracklens as the lead chess programmer for Fidelity so i decided to let his Mirage's have a go at the 4.0 to perhaps exact some level of long awaited ..Revenge

i played two games with the First pitting the Black Mirage with the Black Pieces(naturally) against the 4.0 and in the second the Marble Mirage took on the Excellence with the White pieces
both games were at 30 Seconds per move avg..

Excalibur Black Mirage:



one quirk about the Mirage is that the player cannot see any pondering information(Eval,PV ,anticipated lines ,etc) while the computer is ON the move..but only after its move with the player to move..somewhat strange i think

in the game the BM is first out of book at move 4
the Excellence typically reached search depths of 5 and in the endgame 6

Game One

[Round "1"]
[White "Fidelity Excellence 4.0"]
[Black "Excalibur Black Mirage"]
[Time Control "30 sec/Avg."]
[Result "1-0"]

1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 c5 4.e3 cxd4 5.exd4 dxc4 6.Bxc4 Bd6
7.Qg4 g6 8.Bf4 e5 9.Qe2 Bg4 10.f3 Be6 11.Bxe6 exf4 12.Bd5+ Ne7 13.Bxb7
Nd7 14.Bxa8 Qxa8 15.Nh3 Qd8 16.O-O O-O 17.Ne4 Qb6 18.Rad1 Nf5 19.Rf2 Ne3

[fen]5rk1/p2n1p1p/1q1b2p1/8/3PNp2/4nP1N/PP2QRPP/3R2K1 w - - 0 20[/fen]
the Mirage is down the exchange and a pawn and showing an Eval of
-2.84 here ..
but it is not without compensation
its N at E3 is a bone in throat of the Excellence and White has a N wayward and out of play on H3

the next few moves will show the Fidelity strangled by the Black Night to the point where it will return the Exchange to get rid of it
20.Rd3 Rc8 21.Qe1 Bc7 22.Qc3 Qa6 23.Qb3 Bd6 24.Kh1 Rb8

[fen]1r4k1/p2n1p1p/q2b2p1/8/3PNp2/1Q1RnP1N/PP3RPP/7K w - - 0 25[/fen]
25.Rxe3 !!?

the Excellence gives up its Queen for a rook and the suffocating Knight!
normally two Rooks against a Queen is more then equal but thats if the Rooks can work in tandem supporting each other on the same rank/file
here the rooks are disjointed and not easily brought together

the Mirage's assessment of the position improves to -1.8 here

25..Rxb3
26.Rxb3 Bf8 27.Nc3 Bg7 28.d5 Bd4 29.Ra3 Qd6 30.Rd2 Be3 31.Rd1 a6 32.Ne4
Qb4 33.Rxa6 Qxb2 34.Ra8+ Kg7 35.Nhg5 h6 36.Nh3 Nb6 37.Ra5 Qc2 38.Re1 Qc4
39.Rb1 Nxd5 40.a4 Nb6 41.Ra7 Nxa4 42.Nd6 Qd5 43.Rxf7+ Qxf7 44.Nxf7 Kxf7
45.Rb4 Nb6 46.Nxf4 g5 47.Nd3 Nd5 48.Ne5+ Kf8 49.Rb7 h5
50.Rh7 h4 51.Rd7 Nf4 52.Rb7 Ke8 53.Nc6 Bc5 54.Rg7 Ne6 55.Rh7 Nf4 56.Ne5
Bd6 57.Nc4 Bc5 58.Rb7 Nd3 59.Rb5 Kd7 60.Ne5+ Nxe5 61.Rxc5

[fen]8/3k4/8/2R1n1p1/7p/5P2/6PP/7K w - - 0 61[/fen]
the Spracklens typically superior endgame play proves too strong for Nelson's Mirage

the rest was a matter of mere technique

Kd6 62.Rb5 Ke663.h3 Kf6 64.Kg1 Nd3 65.Rb3 Nf4 66.Kf2 Ke5 67.Rb5+ Nd5
68.Ra5 Ke6 69.g3 Ke5 70.gxh4 gxh4 71.Ke1 Kd4 72.Kd2 Ne3 73.Ke2 Nd5
74.Ra4+ Ke5 75.Rxh4 Nf4+ 76.Kd2 Kf5 77.Rh8 Ng6 78.Re8 Nh4 79.Rf8+ Ke5
80.Ke3 Ng2+ 81.Kf2 Nh4 82.Kg3 Nf5+ 83.Kg4 Ne3+ 84.Kg5 Nc2 85.f4+ Kd6
86.Ra8 Kd5 87.Rd8+ Kc4 88.Rc8+ Kd3 89.Rxc2 Ke4 *

FINAL POSITION
[fen]8/8/8/6K1/4kP2/7P/2R5/8 w - - 0 90[/fen]
I stopped the game here and resigned for the Black Mirage

In the Second game the Excalibur Mirage Marble has the White pieces and his Excellency 4.0 the dark pieces

A Video of the Marble Mirage can be seen here:

http://alain.zanchetta.free.fr/videos/M ... pening.wmv


in the Game this time it was the 4.0 out of book first at move 6
the Mirage typically reached search depths of 5 with the occasionally foray into 6 ply

GAME TWO..


[[Round "2"]
[White "Excalibur Marble Mirage"]
[Black "Fidelity Excellence 4.0"]
[Time Control "30 Sec.Avg"]
[Result "0-1"]

1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 Bb4 4.e3 O-O 5.Bd3 d5 6.Nf3 Ne4 7.Bd2 Nxd2 8.Nxd2
dxc4 9.Nxc4 Nc6 10.a3 Bxc3+ 11.bxc3 b5 12.Nd2 Qd5 13.Be4 Qd6 14.a4 f5
15.axb5 fxe4 16.bxc6 Qxc6 17.Qc2 Bb7 18.Rb1 a5 19.f3 exf3 20.Nxf3 Qe4
21.Qc1 Ba6 22.Ra1 Bc4 23.Ra4 Bb5 24.Ra2 Qd5 25.Qc2

[fen]r4rk1/2p3pp/4p3/pb1q4/3P4/2P1PN2/R1Q3PP/4K2R w K - 0 25[/fen]
25.. Rxf3!!
Tal Himself would be proud of the Rook Sac
The Mirage delayed Castling for too long and now must pay the consequences..his position is now busted!

it was at this point that the Mirage flashed the dreaded "STALLED" message on the display screen
this message normally is the kiss of death as it means the system has malfunctioned and cannot continue moving the pieces
the only solution at that point is to press the reset switch and begin anew

however i found it just a tad too coincidental that the Mirage should conveniently STALL right after a brilliant sac by the Excellence(and once again having to admit to the superiority of the Spracklen program over the Nelson program) so i slapped the Mirage against the side of its casing ..and as i suspected... play(with a somewhat embarrassed ..red faced..Marble Mirage) was able to continue...
26.gxf3 Qxf3 27.Qg2 Qxe3+ 28.Kd1 Qd3+ 29.Kc1 Qxc3+ 30.Qc2 Qxd4 31.Qxc7 Qe3+ 32.Rd2
Ba6 33.Qg3 Rc8+ 34.Kb1 Qxd2 35.Rg1 Bd3+ 36.Ka1

[fen]2r3k1/6pp/4p3/p7/8/2qb2Q1/7P/K5R1 w - - 0 37[/fen]
36..Qc3+
His Excellency 4.0 announces(or rather flashes) a mate in 5 here

37.Ka2 Qc4+ 38.Ka3 Qb4+ 39.Ka2 Rc2+ 40.Ka1 Qb2# 0-1

FINAL POSITION

[fen]6k1/6pp/4p3/p7/8/3b2Q1/1qr4P/K5R1 w - - 0 41[/fen]

more on all chess playing robots released for sale here:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/10261668@N ... 922174592/


I Robot Regards
Steve

[ricard60]

Hi Steve,

Rook sac, and mate in 5 , sometimes this machines make you think that they have a bigger elo than they really have.

Best
Ricardo