Collector's Corner..On Dedicated Chess Computers...

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Steve B
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Re: Collector's Corner..On Testing The Old Chess Computers..

Post by Steve B »

Jose wrote:Hi Steve, hi all,
Steve B wrote:while the Corona is an auto-sensory with 81 leds(one on each square)
I think you mean 64 leds, or :wink: ?

Stratos/Corona/Simultano
Also the different program versions are interesting and like one them recognize, but for sure it is not easy.

I find the woodenborads and figures of Saitek very beautiful, more beautifully than many other woodenboards from some Top-Seller-Companies in the past...

More testing computers Regards José
Welcome Jose to the Future of all things Computer Chess

and of course you are correct(as usual) there are only 64 leds
in the Corona

Proof Reading Regards
Steve
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Post by spacious_mind »

Steve B wrote:The Novag Opal has the honorable distinction of being the smallest Pressure sensory chess computer ever released for sale
( the Fidelity Travel master is also quite small but it is somewhat bigger in width and in overall dimensions)

The Opal series consisted of four computers :
Opal(1992)
Opal II(1996)
Opal Plus(2000)
Star Opal(2005)

all four computers look exactly the same (except for color variations) and have the same exact keys and functions
the Opal had a 630 ply book and 16 levels of play while the other three all had 8500 ply books and 64 levels for the Opal II and 128 levels for the Plus and Star
in fact the manuals are all exactly the same(except for the level sections)

the Opal only had 4k-Rom and 256k Ram and the other three each had 16k and 768k
Steve:
Thanks for the informations on the Novag Opals. Do you have a guestimate or gut feeling about playing strength of the Novag Opal? I am currently playing a 108 machine U1400 30 sec/move tournament and I am struggling with the Novag Opal wondering if I should add the Novag Opal (a recent aquisition) to one of the last Groups or keep it for a later U1600 Tournament. Some chess friends suggest it should play but since I based my starting point for entry into the tournament on the Wiki ELO 1400 or less, I have this gut feeling that the Opal is too strong.

If you have some thoughts on this I would love to hear them.

Best regards

Nick
Nick
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Post by Steve B »

hi Nick

well Novag estimated the playing strength of the Opal in adverts of the time at 1575 USCF

a good rule of thumb with Novag ratings estimates is to subtract 250 points to get from USCF to ELO and also to get past their marketing hype

for example they currently estimate the Citrine at 2330 USCF and subtracting 250 Would bring us to a reasonable Elo for the Citrine of 2080

having said that i think a good guesstimate for the Opal is in the mid 1300 range so i guess it would qualify for your tournament..

even if it were a bit stronger i dont think it would be even close to 1450 so you would not be sandbagging the field i think

as for the 1600 tournament as i mentioned in my post SS shows a rating of 1580 elo for the Opal Plus so i think any of the later Opals would be better matched in the higher group with the Opal in the lower group

Good Luck With The Tournament Regards
Steve
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Post by Mark Uniacke »

Steve B wrote:
drbob wrote:I have a Fidelity Chess Challenger (3MHz!) that I still enjoying playing. That buzzie voice still announces, "I am Fidelity's Chess Challenger, your computer opponent."
Every once in a while, I can force it to say, "...And mate, I lose."
But, and I know it's impossible, sometimes I think I can hear it snickering at my moves. Really annoying. :-)
Robert
hi Robert

yes the world famous computer voice
the very first use of the voice chip in a chess computer
invented by the legendary Father of ALL commercial chess computer programmer's..Ron Nelson
and now there is a chart topping hit with the voice singing:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t_H6uIQPjvQ


Best
Steve
Amazing video, I never knew VCC was quite so famous!

I remember playing in the 1980 Guernsey international chess tournament where Voice Challenger competed. I think that was one of the first times a dedicated chess computer competed with humans in an event in Europe containing GM/IMs. Maybe the first?

Unfortunately I did not meet VCC in the tourny although spent some time watching it since I had a CC10 model A at the time!

A question for you dedicated nuts is how did it score in the tournament?
Best wishes,
Mark

https://www.hiarcs.com
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Post by spacious_mind »

Steve B wrote:hi Nick

well Novag estimated the playing strength of the Opal in adverts of the time at 1575 USCF

a good rule of thumb with Novag ratings estimates is to subtract 250 points to get from USCF to ELO and also to get past their marketing hype

for example they currently estimate the Citrine at 2330 USCF and subtracting 250 Would bring us to a reasonable Elo for the Citrine of 2080

having said that i think a good guesstimate for the Opal is in the mid 1300 range so i guess it would qualify for your tournament..

even if it were a bit stronger i dont think it would be even close to 1450 so you would not be sandbagging the field i think

as for the 1600 tournament as i mentioned in my post SS shows a rating of 1580 elo for the Opal Plus so i think any of the later Opals would be better matched in the higher group with the Opal in the lower group

Good Luck With The Tournament Regards
Steve
Thanks a lot !

Perhaps you can enlighten me on another machine I just bought a Novag Alto. Do you have any info on this machine. Again I am mostly interested in its playing strength.

Best regards
Nick
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Post by Steve B »

spacious_mind wrote:
Steve B wrote:hi Nick

well Novag estimated the playing strength of the Opal in adverts of the time at 1575 USCF

a good rule of thumb with Novag ratings estimates is to subtract 250 points to get from USCF to ELO and also to get past their marketing hype

for example they currently estimate the Citrine at 2330 USCF and subtracting 250 Would bring us to a reasonable Elo for the Citrine of 2080

having said that i think a good guesstimate for the Opal is in the mid 1300 range so i guess it would qualify for your tournament..

even if it were a bit stronger i dont think it would be even close to 1450 so you would not be sandbagging the field i think

as for the 1600 tournament as i mentioned in my post SS shows a rating of 1580 elo for the Opal Plus so i think any of the later Opals would be better matched in the higher group with the Opal in the lower group

Good Luck With The Tournament Regards
Steve
Thanks a lot !

Perhaps you can enlighten me on another machine I just bought a Novag Alto. Do you have any info on this machine. Again I am mostly interested in its playing strength.

Best regards
while i do not own the Alto Nick,i do have a Novag Brochure from 1988 which lists it

the brochure does not mention an elo but it shows the following:
Single chip 8 Mhz processor
4 KB ROM,192 Byte Ram
opening book 100 plies

these are almost exactly the same specs for the Novag Solo also from 1988
the Solo is rated 1280 Elo (SS) with the only difference being it has 2KB Rom (all other specs the same)

my guess then is that the Alto is perhaps 25 elo better at most
so i would place it at 1300 Elo

Alto Sax Regards
Steve
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Post by Steve B »

Mark Uniacke wrote:
Steve B wrote:
drbob wrote:I have a Fidelity Chess Challenger (3MHz!) that I still enjoying playing. That buzzie voice still announces, "I am Fidelity's Chess Challenger, your computer opponent."
Every once in a while, I can force it to say, "...And mate, I lose."
But, and I know it's impossible, sometimes I think I can hear it snickering at my moves. Really annoying. :-)
Robert
hi Robert

yes the world famous computer voice
the very first use of the voice chip in a chess computer
invented by the legendary Father of ALL commercial chess computer programmer's..Ron Nelson
and now there is a chart topping hit with the voice singing:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t_H6uIQPjvQ


Best
Steve
Amazing video, I never knew VCC was quite so famous!

I remember playing in the 1980 Guernsey international chess tournament where Voice Challenger competed. I think that was one of the first times a dedicated chess computer competed with humans in an event in Europe containing GM/IMs. Maybe the first?

Unfortunately I did not meet VCC in the tourny although spent some time watching it since I had a CC10 model A at the time!

A question for you dedicated nuts is how did it score in the tournament?
thats a tough one Mark

that tournament predates all of my literature on chess computers

i will pass the question along to Ron Nelson to see if perhaps he can recollect anything

in the mean time you will have to make due with this..

http://www.guernseychessclub.org.gg/rep ... 5-1989.htm

Select Your Level Regards
Steve
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Post by spacious_mind »

Steve B wrote:
while i do not own the Alto Nick,i do have a Novag Brochure from 1988 which lists it

the brochure does not mention an elo but it shows the following:
Single chip 8 Mhz processor
4 KB ROM,192 Byte Ram
opening book 100 plies

these are almost exactly the same specs for the Novag Solo also from 1988
the Solo is rated 1280 Elo (SS) with the only difference being it has 2KB Rom (all other specs the same)

my guess then is that the Alto is perhaps 25 elo better at most
so i would place it at 1300 Elo

Alto Sax Regards
Steve
What can I say, you make the membership fee worthwile !

Thanks again Steve :)
Nick
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Post by Steve B »

spacious_mind wrote:
What can I say, you make the membership fee worthwile !

Thanks again Steve :)

you aint seen nuttin yet Nick


MEGA post coming to a thread near you ..on the Legendary.. Mysterious .. Ultra Rare ..and not to mention ..Shrouded in Mystery..

Image

Dont Change That Dial Regards
Steve
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Post by spacious_mind »

Steve B wrote:
spacious_mind wrote:
What can I say, you make the membership fee worthwile !

Thanks again Steve :)

you aint seen nuttin yet Nick


MEGA post coming to a thread near you ..on the Legendary.. Mysterious .. Ultra Rare ..and not to mention ..Shrouded in Mystery..

Image

Dont Change That Dial Regards
Steve
Hi Steve

That board looks absolutely beatiful !! do youy have two of them ?? :D

I am looking forward to your next post !!

Best regards
Nick
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Post by Steve B »

The Legendary Mephisto Excalibur needs no introduction

as the very first dedicated chess computer to utilize the Motorola 68000 processor its place in history is forever insured
legend has it that only 50 units were made but some say not more then 25 were sold

released in 1983 the computer contains the same program as the Mephisto III which was rated 1479 (SS)
compiling the program to run on the 68000 at 8 MHz increased the rating over 100 elo to about 1600

housed in a full sized auto sensory board the computer did use the Mephisto III Brikett but only as the display screen with no module inside it
the program is housed in a separate module and inserted above the Brikett as can be clearly seen here:

Image


having the 68000 processor behind it resulted in several new features being brought to the Mephisto III Program such as automatic rotating display of PV,anticipated move,depth search and clock times and a slightly larger opening book
another nice feature is the auto-take back function(by simply reversing the moves on the board)

the board itself looks exactly like the Mephisto ESB II board or ESB 6000 boards except for the gold metal plate attached to the front of the unit with the name EXCALIBUR engraved on it

Image


i played two games(30 Sec/Move) with this living legend to see if was still fit as a fiddle

the first .. was against another somewhat rare computer...the Mephisto ESB II(1470 elo- SS) , not in the commonly seen ESB board but rather in its own special Brikett..the ESB II module normally was made to run in the ESB II board but some special Briketts were released for the module
so no other modules will work in the ESB II Brikett and the ESB II module will not work in any of the other Mephisto Briketts

the ESBII Brikett:
Image

In the game the Excalibur had white and was out of book first at move 3
it searched typically 2 ply full width and 11 ply selective jumping to 3/19 in the end game
while the ESB II searched 3 ply typically

[White "Excalibur"]
[Black "ESB II Module"]
[Time Control "30 seconds /avg."]


1.Nf3 Nf6 2.c4 d5 3.cxd5 Qxd5 4.d4 Nc6 5.Nc3 Qf5 6.d5 Ne5 7.Nxe5 Qxe5
8.f4 Qh5 9.e3 c6 10.dxc6 bxc6 11.Qxh5 Nxh5 12.Bd3 Be6 13.O-O Rd8 14.Rd1
Bg4 15.Rd2 e6

[fen]3rkb1r/p4ppp/2p1p3/7n/5Pb1/2NBP3/PP1R2PP/R1B3K1 w k - 0 16[/fen]

blacks last move blocks off the only escape route for its B
here the ESB II fails to see a simple 8 ply double attack on its B and N
the Excalibur had no trouble capitalizing on the blunder


16.Bc4 Rxd2 17.Bxd2 Bb4 18.h3 Bxc3 19.Bxc3 Bf5 20.g4

[fen]4k2r/p4ppp/2p1p3/5b1n/2B2PP1/2B1P2P/PP6/R5K1 w k g3 0 20[/fen]
winning a piece for a pawn.. and with it the game

20..Ng3 21.gxf5 Nxf5 22.Kf2 Rf8 23.Rd1 g6 24.Bf6 Ne7 25.e4 Rg8 26.b4 h5 27.Ke3
Rf8 28.Kd4 Kd7 29.Ke5+ Ke8 30.Kd6 Ng8 31.Bg7 Ne7 32.Bxf8 Kxf8 33.Kc7 Kg7
34.Rd7 Kf6 35.e5+ Kf5 36.Rxe7 Kxf4 37.Kxc6 Kxe5 38.Rxa7 f5 39.Ra5+ Ke4
40.b5 Kd4 41.Bf1 Ke3 42.b6 Kf2 43.Bc4 Ke3 44.b7 e5 45.b8=Q e4 46.Ra3+
Kd4 47.Qb4 Ke5 48.Qd6# 1-0

FINAL POSITION

[fen]8/8/2KQ2p1/4kp1p/2B1p3/R6P/P7/8 w - - 0 48[/fen]


a rather easy win for Excalibur

in the second game i gave Excalibur the black pieces and pitted it against the Mephisto III
the same program but running on the slower 1802 processor


i expected another easy win but i was in for a rude awakening

in the game the MIII was out of book first at move 6
it typically searched 2 ply full width and 9 ply selectively .. jumping to 13 ply on occasion


[White "Mephisto III"]
[Black "Excalibur"]
[Time Control "30 sec/avg."]


1.e4 e5 2.Bc4 Nf6 3.d3 Nc6 4.Nf3 Bc5 5.c3 d6 6.Bg5 O-O 7.b4 Bb6 8.Nbd2
Be6 9.O-O Bxc4 10.Nxc4 h6 11.Nxb6 axb6 12.Bd2 Ra3 13.Bc1 Ra7 14.b5 Ne7
15.Qb3 Ng6 16.Ba3 Nf4 17.Rfd1 Re8 18.g3 Qa8 19.Bxd6 cxd6 20.gxf4 exf4
21.Rdc1 Ra3 22.Qc2

[fen]q3r1k1/1p3pp1/1p1p1n1p/1P6/4Pp2/r1PP1N2/P1Q2P1P/R1R3K1 w - - 0 22[/fen]

as one would expect the evaluations of the position should be the same due to the fact that
both computers have the same program
here both pv's are +/-.6 in blacks favor


22..Qa5 23.Nd4 d5 24.f3 Re5 25.Qb2 Rg5+
26.Kh1 dxe4 27.dxe4

[fen]6k1/1p3pp1/1p3n1p/qP4r1/3NPp2/r1P2P2/PQ5P/R1R4K w - - 0 27[/fen]

again we see the same exact evaluations ...+/- .77 for the Excalibur


27..Rg6 28.Ne2 Nh5 29.Rg1 Rxg1+ 30.Kxg1 Qa4 31.Nd4 Qa7
32.Nf5 Qa5 33.Nd6 Qxc3 34.Qxc3 Rxc3 35.Kg2 Rc2+ 36.Kg1 Kf8 37.Nxb7 Rd2
38.Rc1 Rd7 39.Rc8+ Ke7 40.Rb8 Rd1+ 41.Kg2 Rd2+ 42.Kh3 g6 43.Ra8 Rf2
44.Ra3 Rb2 45.Ra7 Rxb5 46.a4 Rb2 47.a5 bxa5 48.Nxa5+

[fen]8/R3kp2/6pp/N6n/4Pp2/5P1K/1r5P/8 w - - 0 48[/fen]
Excalibur is up a pawn with both computers showing a PV of +/- 1.41
however the little MIII is able to hold on for dear life against its faster and deeper thinking
brother

48..Kf6 49.Ra6+ Kg5 50.Nc6 Rc2 51.Ne5 Rc7 52.Kg2 Rb7 53.Kh3 f6 54.Nc4 Rb3 55.Kg2 Rc3 56.Ra5+
Kh4 57.Na3 Re3 58.Ra7 Re2+ 59.Kg1 Kh3 60.Rh7 Re1+ 61.Kf2 Ra1 62.Nc4 Ra2+
63.Ke1 Kxh2 64.Rxh6 Kg2 65.Nd2 Ng3 66.Kd1 Kf2 67.Rh2+ Kg1
68.Rh6 Ra1+ 69.Kc2 Ra2+ 70.Kd3 Ra3+ 71.Kc2 Ra2+ 72.Kd3 Ra3+ 73.Kc2

although up a pawn and unable to make any progress the Excalibur contemplates whether or not to repeat the position for a third time
it took a full 2 minutes and 43 seconds deciding on its 73rd move.. easily the longest think it had for the entire game


FINAL POSITION
[fen]8/8/5ppR/8/4Pp2/5Pn1/r1KN4/6k1 w - - 0 74[/fen]

73.Ra2+ 1/2-1/2 DRAW BY 3 FOLD REPETITION

a surprise for the MIII considering that this little computer can be bought for less then 30 Euro today while the Excalibur cannot be bought for 100 times that price

Mega Post Regards
Steve
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Post by Robert Weck »

Steve B wrote:FINAL POSITION
[fen]8/8/5ppR/8/4Pp2/5Pn1/r1KN4/6k1 w - - 0 74[/fen]

73.Ra2+ 1/2-1/2 DRAW BY 3 FOLD REPETITION

a surprise for the MIII considering that this little computer can be bought for less then 30 Euro today while the Excalibur cannot be bought for 100 times that price

Mega Post Regards
Steve
and it shows again, that tuning is much overestimated! :twisted:


against tuning regards,
Robert
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Post by Steve B »

Over estimated and perhaps even over priced Robert...

As i still had the Excalibur spreadeagled and exposed on the examination tables , i wanted to allow it a chance to redeem itself from the disappointing draw against its slower and near sighted brother the MIII

i gave it the black pieces against the Fidelity Super 9 which was next up.. for its check up .. from the neck up

astute readers of these pages will remember that at the very start of this years testing i examined the Super 9 Deluxe
http://www.talkchess.com/forum/viewtopi ... 58&t=13220

the Super 9 is not surrounded in exotic ,life sustaining wood as is its wealthier brother the Super 9 Deluxe, but it is still considered a highly desirable addition to any collection:

Image

in the Game the S9 searched 5 ply and was first out of book at move 3

[White "Super 9"]
[Black "Excalibur"]
[Time Control "30 Sec/Move avg"]


1.c4 e6 2.Nf3 c5 3.Nc3 Nc6 4.e4 Nf6 5.d4 cxd4 6.Nxd4 Bb4 7.Nxc6 Bxc3+
8.bxc3 bxc6 9.Bd3 Qa5 10.Bd2 d6 11.O-O Ba6 12.Qf3 Qe5 13.Rab1 O-O 14.Bf4
Qc5 15.Qg3 e5 16.Bh6 Ne8 17.Bg5 f6 18.Bd2 Qa3 19.Ra1 Qa4 20.c5 Bxd3
21.Qxd3 dxc5 22.Be3 c4 23.Qd1 Qa3 24.Qd7 Qxc3 25.Qxc6 Rd8 26.Rac1 Qd3
27.Qe6+ Rf7 28.Rxc4 Nd6 29.Ra4 a6 30.Rc1 Nxe4 31.Qxa6 Qxa6 32.Rxa6

[fen]3r2k1/5rpp/R4p2/4p3/4n3/4B3/P4PPP/2R3K1 w - - 0 32[/fen]

the material is equal with white having an isolated Rook pawn
play should revolve around the capture or blocking of this pawn but Excalibur simply allows it to march up the A
file and totally ignores it

32.. Rfd7 33.Kf1 Nd2+ 34.Ke1 Ne4 35.a4 f5 36.a5 f4 37.Bb6 Rb8 38.f3 Ng5 39.Bc7 Re8
40.Rd6 Rxd6 41.Bxd6 Kh8 42.a6 Nf7 43.Bc5 e4

[fen]4r2k/5npp/P7/2B5/4pp2/5P2/6PP/2R1K3 w - - 0 44[/fen]
totally oblivious to the presence of the A pawn ..the game is already lost

44.fxe4 Rxe4+ 45.Kf1 Ra4 46.a7 Ra2
FINAL POSITION
47.Ba3 1-0
[fen]7k/P4npp/8/8/5p2/B7/r5PP/2R2K2 w - - 0 47[/fen]

a nice finesse by the Super 9..threatening both a bank rank mate or the promotion of the pawn
Excalibur shows -9.99 here which is a resignation

a win ,draw and a loss against an avg.of low 1500 Elo competition

Willing To Trade Excalibur For A Nice Flat Panel HDTV Regards
Steve
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Post by Steve B »

Steve B wrote:
the Super 9 is not surrounded in exotic ,life sustaining wood as is its wealthier brother the Super 9 Deluxe
Of Course the beautiful surrounding wood is not the only difference between the Super 9 Deluxe and the Super 9
the SU9D runs at 2.5 MHz while the S9 at 2 MHz ...a 25% increase in clock speed as can be seen here:

in this position
(Standard Clock Speed Test-Left Handed Collectors)

[fen]rnbqkbnr/pppppppp/8/8/P7/8/1PPPPPPP/RNBQKBNR w KQkq a3 0 1[/fen]
As Black the..
SU9D reaches 6 ply in 58 seconds
S9 reaches 6 ply in 73 seconds

while in this position
(Standard Clock Speed Test-Right Handed Collectors)
[fen]rnbqkbnr/pppppppp/8/8/7P/8/PPPPPPP1/RNBQKBNR w KQkq - 0 1[/fen]
SU9D reaches 6 ply in 66 seconds
S9 reaches 6 ply in 83 seconds

Image

Ambidextrous Regards
Steve
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Post by Steve B »

Testing of course is not reserved for actual chess computers only
there comes a time when even Auxiliary items such as add-on modules and clocks must also be subjected to the rigors of the examination tables

two such modules due up for checking are the hard to find Fidelity CGG and CG64 Greatest games modules
the CGG contained 33 Great Games for the Mini Sensory

Image

while the CGG4 contained 64 Great Games and could be used in several Fidelity models including the SC9,Prestige,EAS, Elegance and EAG :

Image

Both modules contain the "Game of the Century" where a 13 year old Bobby Fischer playing with the Black pieces against Donald Byrne in 1956 reached this world famous position:

[fen]r3r1k1/pp3pbp/1qp3p1/2B5/2BP2b1/Q1n2N2/P4PPP/3R1K1R b - - 0 17[/fen]

with Blacks Queen En Prise Bobby unleashed the world famous Be6!!

i loaded up the CG64 module into the EAG V9.. which is rare in its own right(68030 processor running at 32 Mhz with 1 Meg of Ram) and rated 2122(SS)

Image

after playing through the moves i reached the world famous position and let the EAG V9 have a go at it
the EAGV9 finds Bobby's move instantly and sticks with it for a full 5 minutes reaching a depth of 8 ply and scoring the position as +1.23

Modular Madness Regards
Steve
Last edited by Steve B on Mon Sep 03, 2007 11:00 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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