Sad day for Computer Chess

[Richard Pijl]

The board had a real struggle to have enough programs for the tournament last may. If programmers don't want to participate anymore, then the magazine is also losing one of its pillars.

In november they will try once more to organize it. If the respons is again as bad as, or lower than in may, the board will just have a meeting in which we decide that we stop.

You mean, a meeting in which it is announced the board will stop. And then it's up to the members what they want, right?
When the programmer's tournaments are important pillars of the CSVN, then perhaps some effort should be made in bridging the gap with the programmers who are still willing to attend events (They are still there! ). But the current board has proven not to be able to do that. As the board mentioned on their announcement on the CSVN site the times have changed. So maybe it is time to say thanks to long-time members of the board (fully acknowledging their accomplishments and contributions they made in the past) and welcome a fresh new board that will take the CSVN into the 21st century.

[Hans van der Zijden]

The board had a real struggle to have enough programs for the tournament last may. If programmers don't want to participate anymore, then the magazine is also losing one of its pillars.

In november they will try once more to organize it. If the respons is again as bad as, or lower than in may, the board will just have a meeting in which we decide that we stop.

You mean, a meeting in which it is announced the board will stop. And then it's up to the members what they want, right?
When the programmer's tournaments are important pillars of the CSVN, then perhaps some effort should be made in bridging the gap with the programmers who are still willing to attend events (They are still there! ). But the current board has proven not to be able to do that. As the board mentioned on their announcement on the CSVN site the times have changed. So maybe it is time to say thanks to long-time members of the board (fully acknowledging their accomplishments and contributions they made in the past) and welcome a fresh new board that will take the CSVN into the 21st century.

No, a meeting where the CSVN as we know it now will stop. Unless of course enough programmers will enter next tournament.

If "by bridging the gap" you mean the board should comply with ICGA's ban of Rybka and maybe step down for a whole new board, then forget about it. That will never happen. The board made enough effort I think to draw programmers to their tournament. But everywhere organisers of tournaments struggle to go on. A new board is not going to change much.

It has been a nice 4 decades. Time to do something else.

Hans.

[Richard Pijl]

No, a meeting where the CSVN as we know it now will stop. Unless of course enough programmers will enter next tournament.

I suggest you read article 14 of the CSVN statutes. It is the members that decide to liquidate, not the board (and if the board consists of 4 elected members, as the agenda of the past annual meeting suggested, taking a look at article 8.1 would not hurt either).

If "by bridging the gap" you mean the board should comply with ICGA's ban of Rybka and maybe step down for a whole new board, then forget about it. That will never happen.

The open letter of the programmers to the CSVN members should have made clear that there's a conflict between the CSVN board and a large group of programmers. It would have been much easier to just stop participating and be quiet about it (as many already did in the years before). But by writing that letter the programmers showed that they cared about the tournament and that a change in the current course was required. Unfortunately this letter was not understood as such but there wasn't much else the programmers could do. The next step needed to be taken by the CSVN board.
So:
Bridging the gap means that the board actually listens to the programmers that attend their tournaments.
Bridging the gap means that if suggestions from well-meaning programmers are put to the attention to the board that these are taken seriously and not dismissed with a simple: This will not work.
Bridging the gap means that the board listens to complaints of their participants and act accordingly
Bridging the gap means that the board recognizes the changed times. Participating in a CSVN tournament is no longer a privilege. It is the CSVN who should be happy with the participation of the programmers as the internet, the abundance of available programs, online tests and the limited commercial interest in tournaments like those in Leiden has really changed the need for programmers to participate.

The board made enough effort I think to draw programmers to their tournament. But everywhere organisers of tournaments struggle to go on. A new board is not going to change much.

I'm afraid the current board is not going to change much. So far they failed to adapt to the changed circumstances. Let's try our luck with a new board that does want change in how the CSVN operates. I still think the CSVN could fulfil a significant role in computer chess by hosting events for both users and programmers. But things need to change. This should be obvious to everybody.

It has been a nice 4 decades. Time to do something else.

We can use the same words, but we probably mean something else by them ...

[Hans van der Zijden]

No, a meeting where the CSVN as we know it now will stop. Unless of course enough programmers will enter next tournament.

I suggest you read article 14 of the CSVN statutes. It is the members that decide to liquidate, not the board (and if the board consists of 4 elected members, as the agenda of the past annual meeting suggested, taking a look at article 8.1 would not hurt either).

If "by bridging the gap" you mean the board should comply with ICGA's ban of Rybka and maybe step down for a whole new board, then forget about it. That will never happen.

The open letter of the programmers to the CSVN members should have made clear that there's a conflict between the CSVN board and a large group of programmers. It would have been much easier to just stop participating and be quiet about it (as many already did in the years before). But by writing that letter the programmers showed that they cared about the tournament and that a change in the current course was required. Unfortunately this letter was not understood as such but there wasn't much else the programmers could do. The next step needed to be taken by the CSVN board.
So:
Bridging the gap means that the board actually listens to the programmers that attend their tournaments.
Bridging the gap means that if suggestions from well-meaning programmers are put to the attention to the board that these are taken seriously and not dismissed with a simple: This will not work.
Bridging the gap means that the board listens to complaints of their participants and act accordingly
Bridging the gap means that the board recognizes the changed times. Participating in a CSVN tournament is no longer a privilege. It is the CSVN who should be happy with the participation of the programmers as the internet, the abundance of available programs, online tests and the limited commercial interest in tournaments like those in Leiden has really changed the need for programmers to participate.

The board made enough effort I think to draw programmers to their tournament. But everywhere organisers of tournaments struggle to go on. A new board is not going to change much.

I'm afraid the current board is not going to change much. So far they failed to adapt to the changed circumstances. Let's try our luck with a new board that does want change in how the CSVN operates. I still think the CSVN could fulfil a significant role in computer chess by hosting events for both users and programmers. But things need to change. This should be obvious to everybody.

It has been a nice 4 decades. Time to do something else.

We can use the same words, but we probably mean something else by them ...

Of course it is not the board that decides about stopping. What I meant is that they are going to suggest this. And I see no reason why the members would think otherwise. Most members are enjoying a well deserved pension and they are not very active. I don't see them forming a new board. Unless you and some others become members of the CSVN and take over.

About the the other points; I am not going to discuss this in detail. There are two groups now since the Rybka case, both groups are probably a little bit right and a little bit wrong. Too much bad things have been said and I don't see them ever get any closer too each other. We will never see eye to eye, which in our case is also impossible because you are so much taller (sorry, couldn't resist).

The CSVN made it pretty clear what they think about the situation. If programmers can't live with that and stay away, then so be it. There are plenty of other fun things to do.

Hans.

[SirDave]

Hardcore Collectors have a different take on the evolution of the hobby...its sort of like collecting art work
while an artist is alive grinding out one painting after another his works
wont be as valuable as when he dies once he croaks the prices soar because there will be no more output we see this happening with the old wooden chess computers..large or small
with all of the Manufacturers now in the history books the prices steadily go up for these boards because you cant run out and buy a new one
the same is happening for the modules used in the boards

the portables are a bit different
today's hand held devices are very similar to having a dedicated portable
so these dont go up all that much over the years..as they are somewhat easily replaceable
although i appreciate them every bit as much as the larger boards

of course collecting is about much more then just the value or worth of a particular computer.. but that is for another day

XXX Hardcore Collecting Regards
Steve

Steve, there's no doubt that the collecting of the classic wooden chess boards and, particularly, the perspective of a hard-core collector is a different realm all itself.

But I have a somewhat different slant on: 'today's hand held devices are very similar to having a dedicated portable so these dont go up all that much over the years..as they are somewhat easily replaceable'

I am a collector of portables more for the purpose of having them to play indefinitely into the future, rather than for the purpose of investment or as a collecting hobby, although I sometimes find myself straying into the latter. A few years ago when I returned to chess after many years away from it, I acquired a number of larger computer boards in the category of the Chess Champion 2150 and RS 2250XL etc.

But I wanted a portable solution as well, so I got all of the latest top apps for the iTouch/iPhone and iPad. But they weren't the same as having moveable pieces, at least not for someone brought up with 'traditional chess'. So I started acquiring the top dedicated portables (ELO >1500). I don't find my dedicated portables to be similar to my handhelds at all. My pattern chess solving works much better with actual vs virtual pieces. Plus, the gadget-loving part of me is more drawn to the top portables than a large wooden board.

With the above in mind and making the assumption that there are others out there like me, there has been a new development in just the last few months: Three portables that can give one a good club-level game have disappeared from the inventories of virtually all of the chess stores. This has happened surprisingly quickly & quietly. It remains to be seen whether these portables become collectible, but at the very least, it is going to be harder for those who have my same portable perspective to acquire a good portable. Heck, I even just bought a 2nd backup Star Opal though it barely makes my lower ELO 1500 limit.

[Richard Pijl]

Of course it is not the board that decides about stopping. What I meant is that they are going to suggest this. And I see no reason why the members would think otherwise. Most members are enjoying a well deserved pension and they are not very active. I don't see them forming a new board. Unless you and some others become members of the CSVN and take over.

I have no interest in 'taking over' the CSVN. But if there are still members that care about the club, step up in a new board to change things for the good and ask me to contribute: I'll will consider this.

About the the other points; I am not going to discuss this in detail. There are two groups now since the Rybka case, both groups are probably a little bit right and a little bit wrong. Too much bad things have been said and I don't see them ever get any closer too each other. We will never see eye to eye, which in our case is also impossible because you are so much taller (sorry, couldn't resist).

The Rybka case was a bad incident, handled badly by the board. But it was not the only one. My statements were made in a generic way and I intended it that way.

The CSVN made it pretty clear what they think about the situation. If programmers can't live with that and stay away, then so be it. There are plenty of other fun things to do.

Then the members should decide if they need a programmer's tournament.
If not: There is no reason to liquidate.
If they do: Install a new board that will attempt to glue the pieces together as the current board has failed to do so.
I'm sure an interim board can be found. Things can be simple.

[red_potatoes]

there has been a new development in just the last few months: Three portables that can give one a good club-level game have disappeared from the inventories of virtually all of the chess stores. This has happened surprisingly quickly & quietly.

I'm curious - what three portables are you referring to?

Like you, I also "collect" primarily for the purpose of having opponents to play against for years to come, although my preference is for tabletop units.

On a different note: I recently discovered that several of Richard Lang's older programs (Amsterdam, Dallas, Roma) are available as UCI engines at Ed Schroeder's site. Since I own a DGT board - this is a very simple way for me to be able to enjoy these classics "with real pieces". I don't stand a chance against (non-handicapped) modern engines. But against these three, there is always a glimmer of hope...

[Cubeman]

I also think that one major reason why the dedicated machine manufactures of the past have found the modern times so challenging is the auction sites like Ebay. A dedicated can have many lives being bought and sold on Ebay many times over.Where as before in the 80's or 90's the only chance a dedicated got a new home was thru a newspaper classified or garage sale so if you were new to chess and wanted a physical chess opponent challenge then you had little choice but to head along to a retail store. But now days it is too easy to get bargain on Ebay.

[SirDave]

there has been a new development in just the last few months: Three portables that can give one a good club-level game have disappeared from the inventories of virtually all of the chess stores. This has happened surprisingly quickly & quietly.

I'm curious - what three portables are you referring to?

Like you, I also "collect" primarily for the purpose of having opponents to play against for years to come, although my preference is for tabletop units.

On a different note: I recently discovered that several of Richard Lang's older programs (Amsterdam, Dallas, Roma) are available as UCI engines at Ed Schroeder's site. Since I own a DGT board - this is a very simple way for me to be able to enjoy these classics "with real pieces". I don't stand a chance against (non-handicapped) modern engines. But against these three, there is always a glimmer of hope...

Sorry for the delay in replying- didn't see your post. Two of the portables are the Saitek Mephisto Advanced Travel (ELO circa 1973) and the Saitek Mephisto Expert Travel (ELO circa 2018). The third I had in mind was the Novag Star Opal, which is not in the league of the above two, but I believe that at the longer fixed time levels it plays at least at an early club level.

Not more than a few months ago, several USA sites had these 3 units in stock with the first two mentioned available consistently while the Novag Star Opal would go in and out of availability. Now the first two are not available anywhere while there are a (very) few sites that still have the Star Opal.

What is misleading about this is that if you Google these units, it will appear that more than one site has them available and even at 'sale' prices, but when you check, these are actually old webpages still found by Google, but do not reflect the actual inventory of the online stores. When you call the stores, not only are they out of stock, but do have any way of ordering more. Production has simply ceased! The latter probably occurred some time ago and stores have been selling off what's left of their inventory.

It appears that just as what happened with the wooden boards (with a very few remaining exceptions and dwindling by the day) has now occurred with portable plastic.

[red_potatoes]

Two of the portables are the Saitek Mephisto Advanced Travel (ELO circa 1973) and the Saitek Mephisto Expert Travel (ELO circa 2018). The third I had in mind was the Novag Star Opal, which is not in the league of the above two, but I believe that at the longer fixed time levels it plays at least at an early club level.

Not more than a few months ago, several USA sites had these 3 units in stock with the first two mentioned available consistently while the Novag Star Opal would go in and out of availability. Now the first two are not available anywhere while there are a (very) few sites that still have the Star Opal.

It appears that just as what happened with the wooden boards (with a very few remaining exceptions and dwindling by the day) has now occurred with portable plastic.

I guess I'll count myself lucky to own one of these three -- the Saitek Mephisto Advanced Travel -- which I picked up cheap on Ebay last year. At the time it was the least expensive way for me to buy a GK2000 clone.

Back in 1994, when I happened to live in Norwich, England, the British Chess Championship came to town. Eric Hallsworth sold chess computers at the event. I had a hard time deciding between the Mephisto Nigel Short and the Saitek GK2000, which were priced similarly. I played the Evans Gambit against both, had more fun with Nigel, and purchased it over the GK2000. The Advanced Travel I bought last year was to honor my memory of the GK2000 as runner up.

Since you mentioned it, I just took a look at my favorite online US chess vendors, and am also amazed at how few dedicated units one can buy nowadays.

Which leads me to wonder: are there any rated >1800 that I should pick up soon before they are gone forever. I already own a Novag Obsidian and Saitek Mephisto Master. Which leaves the Mephisto Chess Challenger and Novag Citrine. The latter has always appealed to me. But when I read recent reviews I get the impression that Citrine pieces feel cheap, and the board is not actually wood. Can anybody comment on how the Citrine compares, aesthetically, to a Mephisto Exclusive? I own (and very much enjoy) my Exclusive. The MM VI module checkmated me in the middlegame, without using its queen, in beautiful fashion last night...

[Cubeman]

there has been a new development in just the last few months: Three portables that can give one a good club-level game have disappeared from the inventories of virtually all of the chess stores. This has happened surprisingly quickly & quietly.

I'm curious - what three portables are you referring to?

Like you, I also "collect" primarily for the purpose of having opponents to play against for years to come, although my preference is for tabletop units.

On a different note: I recently discovered that several of Richard Lang's older programs (Amsterdam, Dallas, Roma) are available as UCI engines at Ed Schroeder's site. Since I own a DGT board - this is a very simple way for me to be able to enjoy these classics "with real pieces". I don't stand a chance against (non-handicapped) modern engines. But against these three, there is always a glimmer of hope...

Sorry for the delay in replying- didn't see your post. Two of the portables are the Saitek Mephisto Advanced Travel (ELO circa 1973) and the Saitek Mephisto Expert Travel (ELO circa 2018). The third I had in mind was the Novag Star Opal, which is not in the league of the above two, but I believe that at the longer fixed time levels it plays at least at an early club level.

Not more than a few months ago, several USA sites had these 3 units in stock with the first two mentioned available consistently while the Novag Star Opal would go in and out of availability. Now the first two are not available anywhere while there are a (very) few sites that still have the Star Opal.

What is misleading about this is that if you Google these units, it will appear that more than one site has them available and even at 'sale' prices, but when you check, these are actually old webpages still found by Google, but do not reflect the actual inventory of the online stores. When you call the stores, not only are they out of stock, but do have any way of ordering more. Production has simply ceased! The latter probably occurred some time ago and stores have been selling off what's left of their inventory.

It appears that just as what happened with the wooden boards (with a very few remaining exceptions and dwindling by the day) has now occurred with portable plastic.

I recently bought the Mephisto Expert Travel hoping that the bug which caused the computer to play weak after exiting an easy level and then set to a harder level would be fixed by now 2012.But alas the bug is still present.A chess computer dealer in NZ seems to have many of these 2 models (Advanced Travel and Expert Travel) still for sale.

[Bryan Whitby]

Although probably not classed as a 'true' portable, I have a Novag Aquamarine RISC II 26.6 MHz (Siglo XXI) that measures only 234 x 284 x 27 mm so it is quite compact.
If you like to play against your chess computer at a really fast response rate, this Novag beauty is as strong as it's stable mate the Citrine!!
It seems to use the same opening book as the Citrine (I'm talking about the updated version downloaded directly from the Novag server when they had all the problems with the original Citrine opening book).
I've played a 20 game, 5 sec per move mini match between the two and the Aquamarine RISC II won by the score of 12-8
As far as I am aware, the Aquamarine RISC II was only sold in Spain and it's one of of my all time favourites that doesn't get much of a mension.
Here's a bit of detail about it found on the Meca forum.
http://translate.google.co.uk/translate ... md%3Dimvns

[SirDave]

Just some random comments concerning a couple of posts above:
There are still some Citrines out there, but I notice that they are priced at top dollar compared to a year ago. I think the sites that have them are going to be out of inventory before too long.

The bug that is in the Mephisto Expert Travel after playing the Fun levels is a bad one, but once known, it has such an easy fix (simply reset). Besides, it is basically a club level unit so I couldn't really see why someone would buy it to play the Fun levels to begin with, especially since there were so many Beginner/Casual player portables out there.

[red_potatoes]

Just some random comments concerning a couple of posts above:

There are still some Citrines out there, but I notice that they are priced at top dollar compared to a year ago. I think the sites that have them are going to be out of inventory before too long.

Talked me into it. I just ordered a Citrine

After I did, it occurred to me that in one of my hobbies (chess), the equipment that interests me most (dedicated chess computers) is almost all from the past. In my other hobby (photography) the quality and utility of the equipment that interests me most (interchangeable lens cameras) continues to improve. Odd how things work out sometimes.