3 reasons why RS 2250XL is Kaplan and NOT MORCSH

[chessguru]

Hello,

sorry for my newbie question. I´m new on the chess computer scene.

Who wrote the chess program for the Saitek President?

Unfortunately i have only 2 chess computers. Saitek President and RadioShack Champion 2250XL.

And I always play with the settings:

SEL off, random off, easy off and book off.

And what can I say? The computer play identical games, same scores, same moves, same move time.

How can that be? I do not understand it.


Oh yes. One more question. A wise man wrote (unfortunately I do not remember where): the size of the opening book is 20.000. Wow, it´s a really great book. But, the tournament opening book, the active opening book and the passive opening book are not working.

Hmm, is this important to the book size? I don't know.

Sorry for my stupid questions and thank you very much for your efforts

Kind Regards.

[spacious_mind]

You have in fact hijacked this thread into meaningless conversations and your love of a book by barden which has nothing to do with computer chess......................

I am really sorry for high jacking your thread. That was not my intent. The intent was to show you through facts that Barnes has nothing to do with RS2250XL and that it is a Morsch.

Showing you these results was intended to show you that the relationship is to Morsch and not Barnes. Besides Barnes has never written a strong program himself. He may have modified one here and there and that is it. That is all that he confirmed in his past posts.

Unfortunately I have not seen a single piece of evidence from you at all that indicates otherwise.

Your statements are off the wall and quite personal I notice when people don't agree with your point of view.

The rest of your posts today are not even worth commenting on.

Best regards,

[RadioSmall]

You have in fact hijacked this thread into meaningless conversations and your love of a book by barden which has nothing to do with computer chess......................

I am really sorry for high jacking your thread. That was not my intent. The intent was to show you through facts that Barnes has nothing to do with RS2250XL and that it is a Morsch.

Showing you these results was intended to show you that the relationship is to Morsch and not Barnes. Besides Barnes has never written a strong program himself. He may have modified one here and there and that is it. That is all that he confirmed in his past posts.

Unfortunately I have not seen a single piece of evidence from you at all that indicates otherwise.

Your statements are off the wall and quite personal I notice when people don't agree with your point of view.

The rest of your posts today are not even worth commenting on.

Best regards,

We know as a fact that you have never written a single piece of code concerning computer chess .You are just an enthusiast like most people here ...... Of course I should know better than getting myself involved in conversations with nontechnical people....that being said ..... I never involved Barnes here it was someone else idea ... I believe that RS 2250 XL is a pure Kaplan Program .Why have you not seen a single peice of evidence?? I already have hundreds of positions from the Match RS 2250 XL vs Designer 2265 that no Morsch program can duplicate .The short Tactical games in Barden's book were not meant for clone detection , it is dumb to even go through these games with any chesscomputer since due to the short tactical nature of these games no information about computers can be gained......You have not even addressed the 3 original reasons mentioned in the very beginning of this thread.... You lack not only knowledge in computer chess but also intuition....................

[spacious_mind]

We know as a fact that you have never written a single piece of code concerning computer chess .You are just an enthusiast like most people here ...... Of course I should know better than getting myself involved in conversations with nontechnical people....that being said ..... I never involved Barnes here it was someone else idea ... I believe that RS 2250 XL is a pure Kaplan Program .Why have you not seen a single peice of evidence?? I already have hundreds of positions from the Match RS 2250 XL vs Designer 2265 that no Morsch program can duplicate .The short Tactical games in Barden's book were not meant for clone detection , it is dumb to even go through these games with any chesscomputer since due to the short tactical nature of these games no information about computers can be gained......You have not even addressed the 3 original reasons mentioned in the very beginning of this thread.... You lack not only knowledge in computer chess but also intuition....................

Can you inform me who we is? Are you my mother? Because unless you are, you know absolutely nothing about me. This is the second time that I am asking you to stop being personal and keep your focus on the topic and not the person.

What three things are you talking about?

If you are talking about the opening book. Micha (a couple of posts ago) already gave you the answer to the opening book size, which is why I also choose to continue to use 6000 instead 20,000 on my website.

What else is missing? The evaluation nps? Mike Watters in a very early post told you to ignore the nps as they are unlikely to be accurate. My Rating tests show the familiarity between Morsch and RS2250 besides there also being a game out of 6 where there was a 100% under selective settings. Micha in his post also showed you how you can repeatedly get a 100% match between his President and his RX2250. Using your games at this moment in time would be extremely time consuming for me because based on your determination to prove otherwise I would not only have to verify the RS2250 moves but also your Mach III before I would even be able to start comparing the game to a Morsch.

Mike Watters has been in this hobby business as long as Steve if not longer. Micha has forgotten more about the technical insides of computers than most people will learn in their lifetime.

Not only are you insulting to me with your comments you are more than likely insulting other people who surpass your knowledge by about a million miles.

Best regards,

[Harvey Williamson]

Hi Guys,

Can we try to get back to the normal debate without the personal remarks?

Cheers,
Harvey

[RadioSmall]

We know as a fact that you have never written a single piece of code concerning computer chess .You are just an enthusiast like most people here ...... Of course I should know better than getting myself involved in conversations with nontechnical people....that being said ..... I never involved Barnes here it was someone else idea ... I believe that RS 2250 XL is a pure Kaplan Program .Why have you not seen a single peice of evidence?? I already have hundreds of positions from the Match RS 2250 XL vs Designer 2265 that no Morsch program can duplicate .The short Tactical games in Barden's book were not meant for clone detection , it is dumb to even go through these games with any chesscomputer since due to the short tactical nature of these games no information about computers can be gained......You have not even addressed the 3 original reasons mentioned in the very beginning of this thread.... You lack not only knowledge in computer chess but also intuition....................

Can you inform me who we is? Are you my mother? Because unless you are, you know absolutely nothing about me. This is the second time that I am asking you to stop being personal and keep your focus on the topic and not the person.

What three things are you talking about?

If you are talking about the opening book. Micha (a couple of posts ago) already gave you the answer to the opening book size, which is why I also choose to continue to use 6000 instead 20,000 on my website.

What else is missing? The evaluation nps? Mike Watters in a very early post told you to ignore the nps as they are unlikely to be accurate. My Rating tests show the familiarity between Morsch and RS2250 besides there also being a game out of 6 where there was a 100% under selective settings. Micha in his post also showed you how you can repeatedly get a 100% match between his President and his RX2250. Using your games at this moment in time would be extremely time consuming for me because based on your determination to prove otherwise I would not only have to verify the RS2250 moves but also your Mach III before I would even be able to start comparing the game to a Morsch.

Mike Watters has been in this hobby business as long as Steve if not longer. Micha has forgotten more about the technical insides of computers than most people will learn in their lifetime.

Not only are you insulting to me with your comments you are more than likely insulting other people who surpass your knowledge by about a million miles.

Best regards,

The 20,000 ply is on the box !! Does Micha want to change the fact that the world is round ?? I also have many computers with truly 6000 ply books and I know that for a fact the RS 2250 XL gets out of the opening much later .Furthermore there is no reason to state this incorrectly on the box .If you cannot understand at least this much then we have nothing to talk about ..As for people who surpass my knowledge well please name 5 or 6 who post regularily here..... It is a known fact that most people that post on chess forums not programmers .... But I have actualy written a chess program for the PC in C language so I don't think "other people surpass my knowlegde by about a million miles " In fact I think it is safe to assume that most people here do not know much about the technical side of computer chess , through no fault of their own of course...... And please do not worry about the move by move comparison in my 6 game match it is on the top of my ever growing to do list .I will prove that the RS 2250 XL is not MORSCH

[SirDave]

The 20,000 ply is on the box !! Does Micha want to change the fact that the world is round ?? I also have many computers with truly 6000 ply books and I know that for a fact the RS 2250 XL gets out of the opening much later .Furthermore there is no reason to state this incorrectly on the box .

I'm not qualified to comment on who might have programmed the 2250XL, but I don't think what's on the box can be trusted any more than what's in the manual which says that you can choose an Active, Passive or Tournament Book.

[Steve B]

But I have actualy written a chess program for the PC in C language so I don't think "other people surpass my knowlegde by about a million miles "

That's interesting RS
Is it a program we might have heard of
commercial or freeware ?
nice to see we have a wide variety of members here
A USCF Master(who still remains in hiding under cover of darkness)
Chess Engine programmers..always tipping the hat to World Champion Programmer Mark Uniacke who without this site we would all be arguing with our loved ones over chess computers
Enthusiasts
New members first learning about our hobby
and even members like me...complete imbiciles who can barely work the clock on a DVD Recorder

Diversified Regards
Steve

[Steve B]

The 20,000 ply is on the box !! Does Micha want to change the fact that the world is round ?? I also have many computers with truly 6000 ply books and I know that for a fact the RS 2250 XL gets out of the opening much later .Furthermore there is no reason to state this incorrectly on the box .

I'm not qualified to comment on who might have programmed the 2250XL, but I don't think what's on the box can be trusted any more than what's in the manual which says that you can choose an Active, Passive or Tournament Book.

not so sure about this
the RS2250xl does have its FULL book operational
my guess is that the other books would not be totally different books but sub-set's of the full book..merely limiting the available book moves the computer will play
the manual even states that it would choose an occasional bad move from its FULL book
basically one book with filters for the other book styles
there must be some other proof that the number of total book moves is the exact number of 6K as quoted here
I guess someone must have actually played through every possible book move and came up with this number?
or perhaps they were able to read the program to see the full book?
OR does this figure come from the book size of other Morsch programs that someone suspects the RS2250XL is a clone of?
its true manufacturers often grossly exaggerated ratings estimates but I don't recall them simply lying about straight forward features and facts all that often

another thought is that the 2250xl does have a user selectable book feature which can be used for the owner to play certain book lines for practice
I never used this feature and assuming it is operational perhaps the number of book moves included in this feature somehow was added into the number of moves in the Full book to arrive at a 20k book line number quoted on the box?

the Wiki entry for the 2250XL does mention that the box states there is a 20k book

http://www.schach-computer.info/wiki/in ... ion_2250XL

the Wiki also mentions the other book styles not being functional but I don't see anything in the entry mentioning a 6k Number

Wondering Regards
Steve

[IvenGO]

RS2250's book came from GK2100's and that's for sure - even several opening lines (mostly minor) are shorter, so if it's a Kaplan's software inside why the hell the book is from Morsh's computer?! Kaplan's opening books themselves were always interesting and original, so what was the reason for such "replacement"?!

[Steve B]

RS2250's book came from GK2100's and that's for sure - even several opening lines (mostly minor) are shorter, so if it's a Kaplan's software inside why the hell the book is from Morsh's computer?! Kaplan's opening books themselves were always interesting and original, so what was the reason for such "replacement"?!

assuming you are replying to my post..
Firstly..there is no need to get overly emotional about this or about anything relating to the hobby
we all do this for relaxation and amusement
now..my question has nothing to do with the Kaplan/Morsch issue
it is only about the book size and where the number 6k comes from
I take it from your reply that this number comes from the book size of the GK2100 but with some smaller lines?
So the reduction is from 30k to 6k?


Always Quote A prior Post if replying to a prior post Regards
Steve

[spacious_mind]

RS2250's book came from GK2100's and that's for sure - even several opening lines (mostly minor) are shorter, so if it's a Kaplan's software inside why the hell the book is from Morsh's computer?! Kaplan's opening books themselves were always interesting and original, so what was the reason for such "replacement"?!

assuming you are replying to my post..
Firstly..there is no need to get overly emotional about this or about anything relating to the hobby
we all do this for relaxation and amusement
now..my question has nothing to do with the Kaplan/Morsch issue
it is only about the book size and where the number 6k comes from
I take it from your reply that this number comes from the book size of the GK2100 but with some smaller lines?
So the reduction is from 30k to 6k?


Always Quote A prior Post if replying to a prior post Regards
Steve

Hi Steve,
I think I may have to check back on all the games I have played with RS2250XL against equal or larger opening book opponents. From memory I tend to think that RS2250XL mostly leaves it's book first which I think would also be an indication that the book is not as big as it should be.

Regards

[Steve B]

RS2250's book came from GK2100's and that's for sure - even several opening lines (mostly minor) are shorter, so if it's a Kaplan's software inside why the hell the book is from Morsh's computer?! Kaplan's opening books themselves were always interesting and original, so what was the reason for such "replacement"?!

assuming you are replying to my post..
Firstly..there is no need to get overly emotional about this or about anything relating to the hobby
we all do this for relaxation and amusement
now..my question has nothing to do with the Kaplan/Morsch issue
it is only about the book size and where the number 6k comes from
I take it from your reply that this number comes from the book size of the GK2100 but with some smaller lines?
So the reduction is from 30k to 6k?


Always Quote A prior Post if replying to a prior post Regards
Steve

Hi Steve,
I think I may have to check back on all the games I have played with RS2250XL against equal or larger opening book opponents. From memory I tend to think that RS2250XL mostly leaves it's book first which I think would also be an indication that the book is not as big as it should be.

Regards

Thanks Nick
no need to do any extra work regarding this
I am just trying to get a handle on where the 6K number quoted here comes from
that's all

Regards
Steve

[spacious_mind]

I am currently on vacation therefore I do not have access to my manuals and computers therefore please correct me if I am wrong but for example if 20,000 moves book openings is quoted, wouldn't this be split as follows:

Big Book 6,000
Tournament book: 4500
Active Book: 4500
Passive Book: 4500

total = 19500

You cannot not even in modern engines tell a program that if you press button B play Tournament book and then pick these tournament book moves out of the Big Book.

Instead what you have is 4 books.

Entry A = Book 1
Entry B = Book 2
Entry C = Book 3
Entry D = Book 4

As I said please correct me if I am wrong.

Best regards,

[Steve B]

You cannot not even in modern engines tell a program that if you press button B play Tournament book and then pick these tournament book moves out of the Big Book.


Best regards,

this is the issue
this might be true but I don't know if it is true
I have asked a chess programmer who has programmed chess engines to opine on whether or not a chess programmer would reasonably program an engine to have 4-5 different books or one massive book which is then filtered when the book style is chosen by the owner
perhaps it would not be programmed that way ..perhaps it would and perhaps it could reasonably be programmed both ways


Fact Finding Regards
Steve