3 reasons why RS 2250XL is Kaplan and NOT MORCSH

[IvenGO]

There's an education function in RS2250 that allows to start a game from manually selected opening line but I would like to say that computer itself recognizes and plays more than described in its manual.
For example: there's written in manual that 1. e4, g6 is Pirc defence and you can force RS to play only g6 - not d6, but itself can reply d6 for your e4 and when you reply d6 for black he also recognize the line and plays with white from book!

[Steve B]

There's an education function in RS2250 that allows to start a game from manually selected opening line but I would like to say that computer itself recognizes and plays more than described in its manual.
For example: there's written in manual that 1. e4, g6 is Pirc defence and you can force RS to play only g6 - not d6, but itself can reply d6 for your e4 and when you reply d6 for black he also recognize the line and plays with white from book!

Yes I mentioned this as a possibility in my earlier post
perhaps this function has book lines which are added to the FULL book to achieve the 20k Number?

Making Progress Regards
Steve

[RadioSmall]

Wow, keep cool, Radio..., who are you? Name? I hate to discuss with Anonymous. It’s funny how people feel that they can say anything about anyone when they hide behind a pseudonym.

These are NOT identical times.... Look at BT's 3,11,18, 30 ....Why are you saying identical times??? People can read.......

You too?

Only for you, once again.

Saitek President and RS 2250XL

Play with the settings:

SEL off (-), random off (-), easy off (-) and book off (-).

- President AND RS 2250XL play identical games, same scores (!!!), same moves, same move time
- the library of the President is a little bit longer in a few cases, but the moves are identical

The outdated BT 2450 Test is only used to rate Computers .......It is not a clone test...........

"Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye?"

And now your facts. Only facts, not assumptions. Your three points are not facts.

Best regards,
Micha

Who Am I?? A Chess programmer, Who are you??.... I ask you again can you read??? BT's 3,11,18 ,30 RS2250 XL time is not identical to President The BT 2630 Test is Only a rating Test MOVE ON..................

[SirDave]

The 20,000 ply is on the box !! Does Micha want to change the fact that the world is round ?? I also have many computers with truly 6000 ply books and I know that for a fact the RS 2250 XL gets out of the opening much later .Furthermore there is no reason to state this incorrectly on the box .

I'm not qualified to comment on who might have programmed the 2250XL, but I don't think what's on the box can be trusted any more than what's in the manual which says that you can choose an Active, Passive or Tournament Book.

not so sure about this
the RS2250xl does have its FULL book operational
my guess is that the other books would not be totally different books but sub-set's of the full book..merely limiting the available book moves the computer will play
the manual even states that it would choose an occasional bad move from its FULL book
basically one book with filters for the other book styles
there must be some other proof that the number of total book moves is the exact number of 6K as quoted here
I guess someone must have actually played through every possible book move and came up with this number?
or perhaps they were able to read the program to see the full book?
OR does this figure come from the book size of other Morsch programs that someone suspects the RS2250XL is a clone of?
its true manufacturers often grossly exaggerated ratings estimates but I don't recall them simply lying about straight forward features and facts all that often

another thought is that the 2250xl does have a user selectable book feature which can be used for the owner to play certain book lines for practice
I never used this feature and assuming it is operational perhaps the number of book moves included in this feature somehow was added into the number of moves in the Full book to arrive at a 20k book line number quoted on the box?

the Wiki entry for the 2250XL does mention that the box states there is a 20k book

http://www.schach-computer.info/wiki/in ... ion_2250XL

the Wiki also mentions the other book styles not being functional but I don't see anything in the entry mentioning a 6k Number

Wondering Regards
Steve

It's interesting that this is how the wiki puts it (Google translated):

The libraries tournament, active and passive, although selected, will not work. When selecting [these] the Champion 2250XL plays without a library. Therefore, the information can not be considered reliable for the size of the library.

[Harvey Williamson]

You cannot not even in modern engines tell a program that if you press button B play Tournament book and then pick these tournament book moves out of the Big Book.

Best regards,

If you take Hiarcs there is 1 book supplied with it. You then select a mode. Tournament, Normal, Surprise etc. If you select tournament only the best moves are played and it will be quite narrow. If you select surprise it is basically anything goes and it will play almost random moves from the book. This is quite easy to do my assigning weights to each move.

[chessguru]

Who Am I?? A Chess programmer, Who are you??.... I ask you again can you read??? BT's 3,11,18 ,30 RS2250 XL time is not identical to President The BT 2630 Test is Only a rating Test MOVE ON..................

This answer I expected...

I'm putting my facts on the table. If you can present facts in a logical unemotional way then I am only too happy to read and evaluate them in my mind.

On my websites you will find a lot information about my person.

Bye, bye.

[spacious_mind]

You cannot not even in modern engines tell a program that if you press button B play Tournament book and then pick these tournament book moves out of the Big Book.

Best regards,

If you take Hiarcs there is 1 book supplied with it. You then select a mode. Tournament, Normal, Surprise etc. If you select tournament only the best moves are played and it will be quite narrow. If you select surprise it is basically anything goes and it will play almost random moves from the book. This is quite easy to do my assigning weights to each move.

Hi Harvey,
The question is would Hiarcs have done the same 20 years ago and would Hiarcs be doing the same with 32 KB ROM that includes the program and other features.

I am suspecting that the other features took up too much space and therefore Tournament Book, Active Book and Passive Book are not working.

Let's hear from Mark if this was possible 20 years ago under conditions where the same books just like the same programs were repeatedly used where the only difference between the computers were a set of features and all this was kept within 32K of programming.

As for the books size of 20,000, 6,000 was assumed based on GK2100's estimated Big Book size, that's where the number comes from (and not from me). It may not be 100% accurate but it is a lot closer to the size of RS2250's Big book considering the rest of the books are not working due probably to lack of space after adding the other features, mostly at the expense of features such as opening book omissions. RS2250XL also is the only one that has LCD Figurine Display, the programming for that also probably has to take up a little more space even if it is only 1K.

Best regards.

[Steve B]

You cannot not even in modern engines tell a program that if you press button B play Tournament book and then pick these tournament book moves out of the Big Book.

Best regards,

If you take Hiarcs there is 1 book supplied with it. You then select a mode. Tournament, Normal, Surprise etc. If you select tournament only the best moves are played and it will be quite narrow. If you select surprise it is basically anything goes and it will play almost random moves from the book. This is quite easy to do my assigning weights to each move.

Hi Harvey,
The question is would Hiarcs have done the same 20 years ago and would Hiarcs be doing the same with 32 KB ROM that includes the program and other features.

I am suspecting that the other features took up too much space and therefore Tournament Book, Active Book and Passive Book are not working.

Let's hear from Mark if this was possible 20 years ago under conditions where the same books just like the same programs were repeatedly used where the only difference between the computers were a set of features and all this was kept within 32K of programming.

As for the books size of 20,000, 6,000 was assumed based on GK2100's estimated Big Book size, that's where the number comes from (and not from me). It may not be 100% accurate but it is a lot closer to the size of RS2250's Big book considering the rest of the books are not working due probably to lack of space after adding the other features, mostly at the expense of features such as opening book omissions. RS2250XL also is the only one that has LCD Figurine Display, the programming for that also probably has to take up a little more space even if it is only 1K.

Best regards.

Well we see that modern day engines do use one book
that issue now put to rest ..it seems to me that the RS2250xl can reasonably have been programmed with a 20K full book alone and the other books were sub-sets of that book
thereby making their non-functionality a moot point
Mark will hopefully shed some more light

so now we finally see that the 6k figure comes from the assumption that the RS2250XL is a clone of the GK2100 and that the 6k is the size of the GK2100's FULL book..give or take a few hundred ply here or there

can i ask where the size of the GK2100's different books are shown?
is there some exact information regarding this some where or was that an estimate as well?

Narrowing the Discussion Regards
Steve

[spacious_mind]

You cannot not even in modern engines tell a program that if you press button B play Tournament book and then pick these tournament book moves out of the Big Book.

Best regards,

If you take Hiarcs there is 1 book supplied with it. You then select a mode. Tournament, Normal, Surprise etc. If you select tournament only the best moves are played and it will be quite narrow. If you select surprise it is basically anything goes and it will play almost random moves from the book. This is quite easy to do my assigning weights to each move.

Hi Harvey,
The question is would Hiarcs have done the same 20 years ago and would Hiarcs be doing the same with 32 KB ROM that includes the program and other features.

I am suspecting that the other features took up too much space and therefore Tournament Book, Active Book and Passive Book are not working.

Let's hear from Mark if this was possible 20 years ago under conditions where the same books just like the same programs were repeatedly used where the only difference between the computers were a set of features and all this was kept within 32K of programming.

As for the books size of 20,000, 6,000 was assumed based on GK2100's estimated Big Book size, that's where the number comes from (and not from me). It may not be 100% accurate but it is a lot closer to the size of RS2250's Big book considering the rest of the books are not working due probably to lack of space after adding the other features, mostly at the expense of features such as opening book omissions. RS2250XL also is the only one that has LCD Figurine Display, the programming for that also probably has to take up a little more space even if it is only 1K.

Best regards.

Well we see that modern day engines do use one book
that issue now put to rest ..it seems to me that the RS2250xl can reasonably have been programmed with a 20K full book alone and the other books were sub-sets of that book
thereby making their non-functionality a moot point
Mark will hopefully shed some more light

so now we finally see that the 6k figure comes from the assumption that the RS2250XL is a clone of the GK2100 and that the 6k is the size of the GK2100's FULL book..give or take a few hundred ply here or there

can i ask where the size of the GK2100's different books are shown?
is there some exact information regarding this some where or was that an estimate as well?

Narrowing the Discussion Regards
Steve

Hi Steve,
Well it depends from which side of the fence you look at it. Lets assume you are correct that the other books are a subset. If that was the case then they should be working but they are not.

So I think it is not a mute point.

Best regards,

[Mark Uniacke]

I would imagine there is essentially one book but within it it has moves assigned to various book styles. Some moves may be exclusive to a book style while others may occur in different styles.

That seems the most likely implementation to me.

[Steve B]

I would imagine there is essentially one book but within it it has moves assigned to various book styles. Some moves may be exclusive to a book style while others may occur in different styles.

That seems the most likely implementation to me.

Well there ya go
one book...with the other books as sub-sets rendering their non-functionality ..moot

Thanks Mark

Best Regards
Steve

[spacious_mind]

I would imagine there is essentially one book but within it it has moves assigned to various book styles. Some moves may be exclusive to a book style while others may occur in different styles.

That seems the most likely implementation to me.

Hi Mark,
Thanks, if that is the case 20,000 would possibly be correct and the other book options where then not programmed correctly, and as such if this is really the case I would concede this point to RadioSmall.

ps. Steve, you change your post too quickly lol!! I was trying to respond to you first but you disappeared!

Best regards

[Steve B]

I would imagine there is essentially one book but within it it has moves assigned to various book styles. Some moves may be exclusive to a book style while others may occur in different styles.

That seems the most likely implementation to me.

Hi Mark,
Thanks, if that is the case 20,000 would possibly be correct and the other book options where then not programmed correctly, and as such if this is really the case I would concede this point to RadioSmall.

ps. Steve, you change your post too quickly lol!! I was trying to respond to you first but you disappeared!

Best regards

yeah i was going on and on about Marks possible replies
any way...good of you to concede the issue
Highest Regards
Steve

[spacious_mind]

I would imagine there is essentially one book but within it it has moves assigned to various book styles. Some moves may be exclusive to a book style while others may occur in different styles.

That seems the most likely implementation to me.

Well there ya go
one book...with the other books as sub-sets rendering their non-functionality ..moot

Thanks Mark

Best Regards
Steve

Yes Mark confirmed that this was a logical approach.

Thanks
Nick

[spacious_mind]

I would imagine there is essentially one book but within it it has moves assigned to various book styles. Some moves may be exclusive to a book style while others may occur in different styles.

That seems the most likely implementation to me.

Hi Mark,
Sorry one question I should have asked. Did Hiarcs Master 1.0 use this approach? I am asking as this would fit the timeline.

ps. Also is it possible or likely in 1992 write the chess program and the programming of other features and to separate the books within the program all within 12K?

Thanks and best regards,