Final Rating Test attempt.

[Queegmeister]

Howdy

I don't know about this test game - any player - including a computer - must play a position they understand to be successful - I will analyze this game a bit after Sapphire 2 and Tasc's idea of an early 16th and 17th move F4. I'll bet it's a win. I think you might want to consider THROWING out the results of this game ---- considering it SKEWS the results way too much. As a teacher will throw out the hi and low to get a more accurate grade. Look at the Sapphire 2 and Tasc's (almost every computer too) apparently horrible results.

Another thing to consider - how long were these GM's taking to make their moves ? I'll bet it was way more than 30 sec. More like 2 or 3 minutes plus their opponents time so maybe 5 minutes a move. Just food for thought.......

Anyways - here it is

Sapphire 2

Game 2 Mangini vs Kotov

6...Qb6
7...Be6
8...Qxd5 ( I believe your chart lists Qxe5 which is impossible )
9...Qh4
10..Qf6
11..Qf6
12..Qd7
13..f5
14..Qd7
15..Qxe6
16..f4 ---- this idea is likely winning
17..f4 --- again might be winning
18..Kh8
19..Rac8
20..Ne7
21..Ne5
22..Bxc3
23..Bxc3
24..fxg3
25..Rxf8
26..fxg3
27..gxh2
28..h1=Q+ --- announced mate in 8

I have had people ask me after I won a game - why didn't you play such and so , isn't that a quicker or better win ? I nearly always answered, " maybe so , but I have to win the way I understand (or see) how to win and I am on a clock. In most cases , once you've found a sure win - you should play it and not concern yourself with anything else. " All these things "ceteris paribus" as Lasker said.

Queeg

[Queegmeister]

hello Again My friends


It appears that after extensive analysis - the game in question is legit and hence the results are legit - I correct myself - I think the game is a good choice and exemplifies what it is supposed to - I would retract my statement that this game should be thrown out, it is clear that neither I nor the tabletop computers understood the position. I would have to lose my "bet" that f4 was good. e4 was clearly better by far and GM Kotov played like the genious he was.

I have learned much from this game. maybe someday I will beat Rybka (analysis engine) I actually won a g/30 off it not too long ago on a quad-core processor. Thought I must have erred in the settings so i did not keep the moves. Oh well....

Still , I wonder what kept the computers from playing e4.....I am going to try giving the Sapphire 3 minutes a move and see the results and will report.


Over and out

Queeg

[spacious_mind]

hello Again My friends


It appears that after extensive analysis - the game in question is legit and hence the results are legit - I correct myself - I think the game is a good choice and exemplifies what it is supposed to - I would retract my statement that this game should be thrown out, it is clear that neither I nor the tabletop computers understood the position. I would have to lose my "bet" that f4 was good. e4 was clearly better by far and GM Kotov played like the genious he was.

I have learned much from this game. maybe someday I will beat Rybka (analysis engine) I actually won a g/30 off it not too long ago on a quad-core processor. Thought I must have erred in the settings so i did not keep the moves. Oh well....

Still , I wonder what kept the computers from playing e4.....I am going to try giving the Sapphire 3 minutes a move and see the results and will report.


Over and out

Queeg

You are right, Game 2 Mangini - Kotov has some extremely hard choices for dedicated computers to make.

Don't feel bad, Barden himself gave 2 points for 22. ... Bxc3 and 1 point for 23. ... Bxc3 and both moves are clearly bad. Therefore even for him this game was extremely hard to analyze over a chess board without computer assistance.

I am hoping that as I work my way through the other test games that I find a few more hard ones like this one, as this will separate the men from the boys.

I will update the Rankings later this evening.

Regards
Nick

[Steve B]

I have had people ask me after I won a game - why didn't you play such and so , isn't that a quicker or better win ? I nearly always answered, " maybe so , but I have to win the way I understand (or see) how to win and I am on a clock. In most cases , once you've found a sure win - you should play it and not concern yourself with anything else. " All these things "ceteris paribus" as Lasker said.

Queeg

Hi Q
I think I recall you mentioning in a different thread that you were a Rated USCF Master
did I get that right?
if so..are you currently active ?

USCF Woodpusher Regards
Steve

[LWSteve]

Igor used 1 min as allowed - I will give results for the Sapphire 2

Novag Sapphire 2

Botvinnik - Grob

7. Bf4
8. Bg5
9. Qe2
10. Qd2
11. dxe6
12. dxe6
13. Rfd1
14. Qc2
15. Rfd1
16. Rfd1
17. Nxe5
18. h3 -- ( considered Kh1 )
19. Na4
20. Rxa4 -- (looked at Qxa4 and passed)
21. Rc4 -- (ahh)
22. b4
23. Rxc5
24. dxe6
25. Rxd6
26. Rc8+
27. Qc7+ -- (announced mate in 7)
28. Bg4+
29. Bxf5+
30. Qc5+

2 in a row for my computers on move 11. dxe6 - why so bad - no points.

Queeg

Queeg, so you are the proud owner of a Sapphire II huh?

Sweet!

The Sapphire II & David Essex will Rock On forever!

Sapphire II - - Regards,

LWSteve

[Queegmeister]

Thanks for asking - I retired from tournament play in 2002 due to failing eyesight and lack of sufficient energy.

Groucho Marx said " getting old can happen to anybody ... you just have live LONG enough !! "

Yes the Sapphire 2 was a gift of my dear late mother back in my late tournament days.

I MET BOBBY FISCHER ( BEFORE he was world champion ) - he stayed at my friends house when he was in town - Bobby was not what you would call , " the sociable type " - But it was fantastic just to meet the GREAT ONE who toppled the RUSSIANS - who did cheat against him in many tournaments - throwing games to the Russian who was in the lead and playing like hell against Bobby.. Thank God for Pal Benko or Fischer may never have won the World Championship. ( maybe you know he gave his spot in the interzonal tournament up so Fischer could play !! I have Pal's autograph (who was kind enough to analyze with me on a couple of occasions ) and many other deceased and living GM's ) Alas , no autograph from Bobby though he did teach me a lesson or two for free !! What a great thing to have as a memory. I have a picture of Bobby and myself taking the lessons from him !!

I played and finished fairly well in the World Open (3 times ) and a great finish in one of my (5) US Open appearances - I won the second place Master Prize MANY years ago !! I also gave simultaneous exhibitions and once played 3 masters (all on clock at once with different time controls making 2 wins and one draw - all rated games !! One of them was pretty PO'd that he got beat and complained to the TD that I should not be able to do that (LOL) - which I LOVED to hear ! One game was for a Swiss , the other a match game, and I threw in one more rated game for good measure !! THOSE WERE THE DAYS MY FRIEND !!

My final rating was lower than my peak as that happens to everyone who plays past 50 years old. My peak rating , I think was 2355 but I ended with about 2240. So I could not recapture the strength of my youth - it was better to quit than to fade away. I think if I played now , I may have trouble maintaining 2200 which would be too much for my ego to bear.

" Last night I shot an elephant in my pajamas ..

..... how he got in my pajamas, I'll never know !! " (another Groucho )

Ahh - humor has changed too but us old guys still remember and laugh ...

Other stories later... many stories.. I weep a little now and then remembering the glory days. My late father told me to "never get old " , I guess I disobeyed him yet again.

Queegmeister

[Steve B]

Thanks for that walk down memory lane
really enjoyed it
so you peaked at close to 2400..USCF Senior Master Status

Now I Have to try to guess your name

Hmmm Regards
Steve

[LWSteve]

Thanks for that walk down memory lane
really enjoyed it
so you peaked at close to 2400..USCF Senior Master Status

Now I Have to try to guess your name

Hmmm Regards
Steve

I was just at a tournament in Reno last year where I talked briefly with Walter Browne in the rest room, so I know Queeg is not him.

I will say Carl Pilnick

LWS

[Steve B]

Thanks for that walk down memory lane
really enjoyed it
so you peaked at close to 2400..USCF Senior Master Status

Now I Have to try to guess your name

Hmmm Regards
Steve

I was just at a tournament in Reno last year where I talked briefly with Walter Browne in the rest room, so I know Queeg is not him.

I will say Carl Pilnick

LWS

Good Guess
I of course can respect Q's desire to remain anonymous
but it is fun guessing who he is
if you are right.. Pilnick had a very long distinguished playing career
I guess that means Nick will be slotting him above Fischer's name as well


Geller,Pilnick, Fischer Regards
Steve

[Queegmeister]

LOL enjoy fellows - I think Carl kept playing many years after my retirement and he was a great guy to play . He didn't seem to mind the decline in playing strength as much as I did. I will give you more clues later.............

Viktors Pupols ( from Latvia I believe )hung out with me and we always had a great time - He classified my style as "wild" - maybe compared to his. he played some amazing chess over the years. Loved to analyze with him !! (That's pronounced "POOPOLS" )

can't stand the way folks said " Tighgrin Petrozhin" for Petrosian - it's Tee GRON Petros YON - - played him in a simul. Got beat too.

Walter Browne - Boy was he wound up when he played - he talked a mile minute in-between games - don't know if it was nervousness or...

If you noticed - Carl's style does not match mine but good try. I was a universal style player but preferred the attacking game and lines off the beaten track..Sometimes obscure and novelties I invented and never got credit for - oh well... LOVED THE GAMBIT STYLE !! Awesome before modern computers spoiled many of them - they really tear up Tal's lines. But chess was meant for human's , not machines. Loved Bronstein and was crushed when he did not win the World Championship.

Should a man have to run a race against a car ? Millions of moves a second, INDEED !!

If you guess right - I may have to confess !! I have been off the radar for years. Guess I can't escape the past forever or maybe I can.. ......only play against computers now.

I recently Crushed the Citrine in a mating attack - after "duking it out" toe to toe in the center of the board. Will post later.

Have a great day !!

Queeg -

[LWSteve]

LOL enjoy fellows - I think Carl kept playing many years after my retirement and he was a great guy to play . He didn't seem to mind the decline in playing strength as much as I did. I will give you more clues later.............

Viktors Pupols ( from Latvia I believe )hung out with me and we always had a great time - He classified my style as "wild" - maybe compared to his. he played some amazing chess over the years. Loved to analyze with him !! (That's pronounced "POOPOLS" )

can't stand the way folks said " Tighgrin Petrozhin" for Petrosian - it's Tee GRON Petros YON - - played him in a simul. Got beat too.

Walter Browne - Boy was he wound up when he played - he talked a mile minute - don't know if it was nervousness or...

If you noticed - Carl's style does not match mine but good try. I was a universal style player but preferred the attacking game and lines off the beaten track..Sometimes obscure and novelties I invented and never got credit for - oh well... LOVED THE GAMBIT STYLE !! Awesome before modern computers spoiled many of them - they really tear up Tal's lines. But chess was meant for human's , not machines. Loved Bronstein and was crushed when he did not win the World Championship.

Should a man have to run a race against a car ? Millions of moves a second, INDEED !!

If you guess right - I may have to confess !! I have been off the radar for years. Guess I can't escape the past forever or maybe I can.. ......only play against computers now.

I recently Crushed the Citrine in a mating attack - after "duking it out" toe to toe in the center of the board. Will post later.

Have a great day !!

Queeg -

Viktors Pupols is still playing up here in the Seattle area.

I have seen him a lot since 1997.

His rating is always 2200 as that is his floor, and he will never go lower than that.

Yasser Seirawan lives up here in Seattle, but I've never met him in person.
He never plays in the WA Open either which is strange.

John Donaldson I've talked with him a few times over the years.
He use to live up here in Seattle.
My 1st tournament with him was at the Grants Pass Open in 1988.
I won a trophy at that tournament for 1st place Class 'D'

And to think about it...
I'm not that much of a better player today. LOL

Luv USCF tournaments Regards,

LWSteve

[Queegmeister]

Well

Good to hear ol' Viktors is alive and well - still playing !? Last time I talked to him he figured he'd retire in ten years (1998 I believe) because he felt he only had 10 years of good chess left in him. So much for 10 years - it's been 15 and counting. He's at his floor - hmmm - would have been there too if I had not quit.

The world is small and the master chess world is very tiny compared to that - you are closing in on me. I may have to resign soon. But probably won't -

I remember some fellows advising me to resign to an expert (during a rated game ) , they said you are down a knight and I replied , "Yes, that is true, I AM down a knight... but I still have ME !!" LOL - I held on and drew the game against a very experienced player.

Crow was being served soon after the game much to the Kibitzers chagrin. ( old saying "eating crow" ) Of course, no credit was given only silence afterwards. It was always that way. I suppose silencing the vultures is reward enough.

Always motivated me when someone implied I was not capable of doing something.

Queeg

[LWSteve]

OK Queeg,

Since you and I have both been playing in USCF tournaments for a long time... (me off and on)

You and I are both going to post our very best Masterpiece!

We only get one game to show off! Only one!

OK here is mine...

BTW - The editor of NW Chess magazine liked this game so much he published
it in NW Chess magazine in 2001

and since Pillsbury is one of my favorite players of all time, I like to be able to play like him once in awhile. (I try to)

Here is a game I played at the 2001 Portland Oregon Spring Open

[White "LWSteve"]
[Black "Stubbs, David"]
[Result "1-0"]
[T/C 40/90 SD/30]
[ECO "A03"]
[WhiteElo "1521"]
[BlackElo "1560"]


1. d4 Nf6 2. e3 g6 3. Bd3 Bg7 4. f4 d5 5. Nf3 O-O 6. O-O c5 7. c3 c4 8. Bc2 Nc6 9. Nbd2 b5 10. Ne5 Qc7 11. h3 h5 12. Kh1 e6 13. Rg1 a5 14. Qe1 Ne7

14 full moves completed below
I played The Stonewall Attack here...
I always play d4 as White and I usually play The London System
or the Zukertort System.

[fen]r1b2rk1/2q1npb1/4pnp1/pp1pN2p/2pP1P2/2P1P2P/PPBN2P1/R1B1Q1RK w - - 0 15[/fen]




15. g4 hxg4 16. hxg4 Nc6 17. Qh4 Re8 18. Ndf3 Bb7

18 full moves completed below
Fritz 13 doesn't like my 19th move of f5, but I still like it to this day.

[fen]r3r1k1/1bq2pb1/2n1pnp1/pp1pN3/2pP1PPQ/2P1PN2/PPB5/R1B3RK w - - 0 19[/fen]



19. f5 exf5 20. gxf5 Qe7 21. fxg6 fxg6 22. Bxg6 Red8

22 full moves completed below
Fun Fun Fun if you're White

[fen]r2r2k1/1b2q1b1/2n2nB1/pp1pN3/2pP3Q/2P1PN2/PP6/R1B3RK w - - 0 23[/fen]





23. Bf7+ Kf8 24. Rxg7 Kxg7 25. Qg5+ Kh7

25 full moves completed below
not long to go now...

[fen]r2r4/1b2qB1k/2n2n2/pp1pN1Q1/2pP4/2P1PN2/PP6/R1B4K w - - 0 26[/fen]




26. Qg6+ Kh8 27. Qh6+ Nh7

27 full moves completed below
And with my 28th move of Ng6# it sort of makes for a picturesque ending.

[fen]r2r3k/1b2qB1n/2n4Q/pp1pN3/2pP4/2P1PN2/PP6/R1B4K w - - 0 28[/fen]

OK Queeg its time for your Masterpiece now.

Mate in 28 Regards,

LWSteve

[Queegmeister]

VERY NICE GAME and I like f5 TOO !! The heck with Fritz !!

The greatest game I lost was vs the late Aleks Wojkiewicz - who was #2 in the country when I played him - boy it was close and lasted 5 hours.

I will look in my archives - I have had many games printed and some in Chess Life and other publications - I had two back to back wins against a particular Senior master from Russia and I won one of them in 24 moves - down 2 pieces, flag hanging, and mate was coming soon so he gave up !! ( the other I won with a fantastic smothered mate )

However, if I post this Semi-famous game - you will likely know who I am - So I will post what I consider an "evergreen" game I played against a prodigy - it was an incredibly brilliant game - I'm sure Fritz will find holes - the tactics were EXTREMELY sharp !! Looking at it now, I marvel at how strongly I played then and try to understand what I was thinking - it was almost supernatural.

I also had a 500 dollar match against a VERY FAMOUS master which I won 5.5 to 2.5 - these games were not printed (I submitted them to a few publishers but was turned down as I guess they did not want a chess ICON to look bad getting trounced that way) although some are very high quality - I will share some of them later.

The first game I will share is a gambit of course. Wide open - and I believe - out of book very early and likely a little unsound but great nonetheless. If you want me to stick to one only I will.

I will search and get back to you - all my rated games are in a box - saved almost all of them.

I will share my final round game from that US OPEN where I sacrificed a rook for a number of pawns to finish well in the money for the master section 2nd place by 1/2 point - OOO so close. That one will come later.
Also I have a first round game from a STATE CHAMPIONSHIP where I sacked my Queen in the middle game to obtain an unstoppable passed pawn.

I will give you more than 1 treat - for sure. Then you can judge for yourself.

I think we should start a new topic after this because this is not what this thread is about - I will share the one game first and then we can make a new thread.

Queeg

[spacious_mind]

8...Qxd5 ( I believe your chart lists Qxe5 which is impossible )

Queeg

yes thanks for spotting an error. There is lots of manual typing that I have to do to enter the moves into the spreadsheet. Barden's book uses the old descriptive notation. Arena uses the long algebraic for the evaluations and in the spreadsheet I am trying to use algebraic for everyone's convenience.

So any typos that you spot please let me know so that I can correct.

So anyway here is the revised table for Test Game # 1:

Test Game 1 Standings

1 Critter 1.6a 64 Bit - AMD Phenom 2 Core 2.8GHZ 73.8 92.25% 2768
2 Mephisto Atlanta 67.8 84.75% 2543
3 Mephisto MM6 65.6 82.00% 2460
4 Radioshack 2250XL Brute Force 65.4 81.75% 2453
5 Mikhail Botvinnik 64.7 80.88% 2426
6 Mephisto Magellan 64.5 80.63% 2419
6 Mephisto Sentator 64.5 80.63% 2419
8 Novag Sapphire II 63.2 79.00% 2370
9 Saitek Travel Champion 2100 62.7 78.38% 2351
10 Tasc CM 512K – 15 MHZ – KING 2.54 62.2 77.75% 2333
11 Radioshack 2250XL Selective 61.5 76.88% 2306
12 Mephisto TM Vancouver 68030 36 Mhz 61.0 76.25% 2288
13 Saitek Corona 60.5 75.63% 2269
14 Mephisto Nigel Short 60.3 75.38% 2261
15 Radioshack 2200X Selective 59.6 74.50% 2235
16 Mchess Pro 5 – P75 58.9 73.63% 2209
17 Novag Jade 2 57.0 71.25% 2138
18 Excalibur Igor-24 Mhz 30S 53.1 66.38% 1991
19 CXG 3000 48.0 60.00% 1800
20 Palm Chess Tiger 14.9 33MHz 46.2 57.75% 1703
21 Saitek MK 12 Trainer LV 5 90S/Move 42.5 53.13% 1594
22 Fidelity Sensory 9 41.4 51.75% 1553
23 Novag Constellation JR 39.2 49.00% 1470
24 Saitek MK 12 Trainer LV 4 15S/Move 36.3 45.38% 1361

Novag Sapphire II moved into 8th place with a rating of 2370.

Test Game # 2 was not so good for Sapphire II, I can see now why Queeg was initially dissatisfied with this game

Test Game 2 Standings

1 Critter 1.6a 64 Bit - AMD Phenom 2 Core 2.8GHZ 75.4 94.25% 2828
2 Alexander Kotov 70.0 87.50% 2629
3 Novag Jade 2 57.6 72.00% 2160
4 Saitek Travel Champion 2100 53.0 66.25% 1988
5 Mephisto TM Vancouver 68030 36 MHz 52.3 65.38% 1961
6 Mephisto Nigel Short 51.6 64.50% 1935
7 Mephisto MM6 50.7 63.38% 1901
8 Radioshack 2250XL Selective 49.5 61.88% 1856
9 Saitek Corona 48.6 60.75% 1823
10 Radioshack 2200X Selective 48.3 60.36% 1811
11 Mchess Pro 5 – P75 46.7 58.38% 1751
12 Tasc CM 512K – 15 MHZ – KING 2.54 45.7 57.13% 1714
13 Mephisto Atlanta 44.5 55.63% 1669
14 Radioshack 2250XL Brute Force 44.0 55.00% 1650
15 Mephisto Magellan 43.4 54.25% 1628
15 Mephisto Sentator 43.4 54.25% 1628
17 CXG 3000 41.8 52.25% 1568
18 Sapphire II 40.9 51.13% 1534
19 Fidelity Sensory 9 38.9 48.63% 1459
20 Novag Constellation JR 35.0 43.75% 1313
21 Saitek MK 12 Trainer LV 5 90S/Move 28.0 35.00% 1050
22 Saitek MK 12 Trainer LV 4 15S/Move 28.0 35.00% 1050

18th place and a rating of 1534 ELO !!

Well Queeg, it would be nice to hear from your perspective as you play through the games if the evaluated Grandmaster game strength that I have calculated for the individual games matches your gut feeling and experience. As this would help to validate the endeavor.

2 in a row for my computers on move 11. dxe6 - why so bad - no points.

Queeg

I think I mentioned in an earlier post that I might recalculate game 1 with 15 move variations sometime in the future to match it the same way as game 2 onwards.

But 11. dxe6 did not make the top 10 evaluated choices. So even after recalibrating game 1 later on it is not really going to make a difference to the score. I only took the top 7 out of 10 choices for this move. After the 7th choice the evaluation % dropped higher from eval #7 to eval #8 and beyond.

if you are right.. Pilnick had a very long distinguished playing career
I guess that means Nick will be slotting him above Fischer's name as well


Geller,Pilnick, Fischer Regards
Steve

I saw that!

History drops Fischer down to 25th.... regards