Atlanta/Magellan ...Redux

[spacious_mind]

If you look at game 6 of my Tests, Atlanta, Magellan and Senator played the same moves 100%. So they are all identical.

and they all have the same bug as evidenced by the test position you asked me to try out
so I am a bit confused
you are saying they are identical and yet you still feel they deserve a separate listing on Wiki
the 40 elo wiki difference can be due to several factors
the ones your mentioned,pondering during game play,random factor ..etc..etc

my guess is if you took two of the same computer..any computer..
lets say the Saitek Sparc..two identical Sparcs
and you just labeled them computer 1...computer 2
and then ran them against different opponents(as the Atlanta and Magellan were on Wiki) you would get a small difference in rating
this would be true at any Time Control

we both said to wait until your done with all of your games to draw any final conclusions but...
if when done if the match ratio between Magellan and Atlanta is at or near 90% ...
will you still hold the position that they deserve a separate listing on Wiki ?

if your answer is still YES .then I guess we don't need to debate this any longer as it would make no sense to from my perspective

Best Regards
Steve

Hi Steve,

Let's put it this way. I believe that the programs have the same base starting point. But it does not change the fact that Atlanta at 30 seconds per move is better than Magellan. I can play these tests until I am blue in the face and it still comes out the same.

I know that my Atlanta, Magellan and Senator are no different to any one else's. I have opened them, I have shown it in certain tests that they are.

But in game practice the results show differently and it is Magellan that is continuously the one that plays weaker:

The Info List is based on 30 seconds per move. My influence on that list is about 20 games maximum out of a total of 374 Atlanta games and 524 Magellan games. As far as I am concerned Micha can remove all my 20 games and it makes no difference to the result. Atlanta is better at Active chess.



Here is a Fritz test that I played all those years ago it shows the same. Everything I do I share so anyone can replay it to their hearts content with their computers. It just is what it is.

So we have the following:

1) A 30 second Active List with 900 games that show Atlanta better which is independent of Nick.
2) A thorough Fritz Test I did a few years ago that show the same.
3) Now the new Test games show Atlanta better than Magellan.

Sure there will be situations when all the moves get repeated. There will be situations of the same with RS2250XL and TC2100 for example as well.

But still they deserve to be listed separately because they do have a play difference however hard it is to point exactly where it comes from.

If that difference between Atlanta and Magellan goes away at Tournament Level chess I don't know because I have not tested that but at 30 seconds per move they deserve a separation.

I mean we are talking about a list here, who cares really if a computer has it's own ELO. In fact I wish that were the case on every one of them as this helps the owner of that computer to be actually able to associate his computer on that list and accurately if he wanted to replay the games instead of them all being lumped together in a bowl like spaghetti.

Best regards,

[Steve B]

[But still they deserve to be listed separately because they do have a play difference however hard it is to point exactly where it comes from.

If that difference between Atlanta and Magellan goes away at Tournament Level chess I don't know because I have not tested that but at 30 seconds per move they deserve a separation.

I mean we are talking about a list here, who cares really if a computer has it's own ELO. In fact I wish that were the case on every one of them as this helps the owner of that computer to be actually able to associate his computer on that list and accurately if he wanted to replay the games instead of them all being lumped together in a bowl like spaghetti.

Best regards,

OK
if that's your opinion
I guess even if your tests show a high correction you will keep that position
so no need to discuss further
I stand by the position that the Atlanta and Magellan are the same computers for all of the reasons given by me in all of the other threads dating back from several years ago


Case Closed Regards
Steve

[Theo]

But in game practice the results show differently and it is Magellan that is continuously the one that plays weaker.

Nick,

I am not sure I will have the time to continue on Nigel Short, Cougar or Chess Tiger for your list in the near future, however I own a Magellan and could try a few of your test games to see if it plays the same moves as yours. Some how this "special Magellan" issue has to be resolved.

Kind Regards,
Theo

[spacious_mind]

[But still they deserve to be listed separately because they do have a play difference however hard it is to point exactly where it comes from.

If that difference between Atlanta and Magellan goes away at Tournament Level chess I don't know because I have not tested that but at 30 seconds per move they deserve a separation.

I mean we are talking about a list here, who cares really if a computer has it's own ELO. In fact I wish that were the case on every one of them as this helps the owner of that computer to be actually able to associate his computer on that list and accurately if he wanted to replay the games instead of them all being lumped together in a bowl like spaghetti.

Best regards,

OK
if that's your opinion
I guess even if your tests show a high correction you will keep that position
so no need to discuss further
I stand by the position that the Atlanta and Magellan are the same computers for all of the reasons given by me in all of the other threads dating back from several years ago


Case Closed Regards
Steve

I am sorry Steve, but take the 6 Test Games, I invite anyone to play back with their Atlanta and Magellan Test game 1 for example and share their results. There is nothing magical about Atlanta or Magellan settings. Just make sure that both are playing selective and 30 seconds per move.

If other Atlanta and Magellan owners show a different set of results then we can perhaps get more to the bottom of things.

Mephisto Magellan M 2234 25 25 524 50.9 % 2228 31.1 % -6
Atlanta M 2267 30 30 374 57.6 % 2213 28.1 %

Adding plus 25 to Magellan does no longer reach the mid point of Atlanta. In a couple of years there will be sufficient games added to this list I am sure that will make the separation a point of no return if the 900 game trend continues.

Best regards,

[Larry]

True, especially when you're talking about Magellan v. Atlanta. You can slice the ratings several ways, but they're pretty close across most categories. Aktiv rating:

Atlanta - 2267
Magellan - 2234

Averaging all ratings gets them even closer - 4 points apart.

So OK, not so much. But add the aktiv rating for Senator:

Atlanta - 2267
Magellan - 2234
Senator - 2139

Now - consider the NICK-ELO after 6 test games:

Atlanta - 2346
Senator - 2264
Magellan - 2252

That, friends, looks to me like a significant rating difference. Whether you buy Nick's numbers or Wiki-Elo, you're talking around 100 points.

Possibilities:

- Nick owns a souped-up Senator
- Nick owns a defective Magellan
- Nick owns a gelded 16 Mhz Magellan
- The Great Powers lied about the 20 Mhz Magellan
- The Great Powers lied about the 20 Mhz Senator

Fact: Atlanta is stronger than both by every measure.


- R.

Someone earlier in this thread suggested the Magellan might be
the same as Master. This would mean that the Magellan does not
have hash tables. We will see, easily enough. Hash tables make a
monumental difference to solving times in simple endings, particularly
pawnless endings. I tried this little experiment:



[fen]8/8/8/6K1/8/3N4/8/5Bk1[/fen]

White to move and mate in 6. Here are the results for Atlanta and Master:

mate in 6....Atlanta 3 min 6 sec....Master 3 min 1 sec
Infinite .....Atlanta 5 sec ........ Master 51 sec


On 'infinite' notice the huge difference. Curiously, on the
'mate-in-six' level the Atlanta was actually slightly slower.


I don't own a Senator nor a Magellan. I'm wondering if someone who
owns either or both of these units could repeat this experiment and
report back with the results.
nice day all...
Larry