Ron Nelson Ever Copied, Used , Cloned the Spracklen?

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Steve B
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Post by Steve B »

spacious_mind wrote:
Instead of watching a soap opera if people are really interested then they could start by researching some of the stuff themselves and posting their findings instead of continuing snippets of abuse of other people hard work.
more nonsense
you are the one creating soap operas when you make comments about hounding and abuse or throwing out "BS"
what do you mean by me being "fed"?

the wiki comments were started with Jon who pointed out some errors in the postings.. i asked about the process of editing the wiki because i really didnt know

Peter replied to my question and then i posted one time..that i wonder when the changes would be made in order to correct the record
Paul Replied and i did not reply again
there is no hounding or abuse


these comments are personal in nature and not directed to the topic under discussion

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Post by spacious_mind »

Ok some progress with Excalibur Alexandra:

Image

I misread the RAM previously. It is 1216 Byte. Therefore the ROM for the chess program including all its speech seems to be inside the 512 KB ROM. Just missing confirmation of whether a 10 MHz quartz was used or not.

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Post by Fluppio »

Hi at all,

it's only our hobby :roll:

Many years Ron was listed as the programmer in the wiki for Excalibur chess computers, only erased because of the long discussion here on Hiarcs forum. Now we should calm a few days, because there are still different opinions in who should be named in the wiki. Personally I would prefer Ron Nelson solo as programmer, as we don't know if Larry Kaufman has done any work besides consulting. F.e. Ossi Weiner or Noomen aren't mentioned too for the Richard Lang programs, so this shouldn't be done with Ron Nelson. My opinion.

I'm not familiar with the whole techninal things at Excalibur, the kind of processors, ROM, RAM, Speed. This has to be corrected by someone else.

Hard work regards
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Post by spacious_mind »

More progress:

Image

ROM should be 1 KB

The RAM for this one can either be:

6805P2 = 64 Byte
6805P4 = 112 Byte

Therefore Crusader might have to be opened to see if there is a reference somewhere.

MHz still needs confirming at 1 MHz

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Post by spacious_mind »

And even more progress:

Image

Revised Chess Station info. The only unknown is the actual speed as the speed can be divided on this chip.

Speed: 0.4 – 6.0 MHz - CPU clock divider circuit (by 4, 8, or 64)

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Post by Fernando »

spacious_mind wrote:And even more progress:

Image

Revised Chess Station info. The only unknown is the actual speed as the speed can be divided on this chip.

Speed: 0.4 – 6.0 MHz - CPU clock divider circuit (by 4, 8, or 64)

Best regards
Damn, man, you are incredible.
F
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Post by spacious_mind »

Fernando wrote:
spacious_mind wrote:And even more progress:

Image

Revised Chess Station info. The only unknown is the actual speed as the speed can be divided on this chip.

Speed: 0.4 – 6.0 MHz - CPU clock divider circuit (by 4, 8, or 64)

Best regards
Damn, man, you are incredible.
F
NO!! not just me I have very educated help!! :)

Smarter than me ..regards
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Post by paulwise3 »

Fluppio wrote:Personally I would prefer Ron Nelson solo as programmer, as we don't know if Larry Kaufman has done any work besides consulting. F.e. Ossi Weiner or Noomen aren't mentioned too for the Richard Lang programs, so this shouldn't be done with Ron Nelson. My opinion.
I am inclined to agree with Peter. Of course the idea of attacking tables and what evaluation criteria should be used and how to order them are not Ron's own, but that can be considered as exchanging ideas with likeminded people. Numerous people have taken profit from Ron's starting ideas. And implementing good ideas into a program is still quite a job, as I know of my personal experience as former application developer.

PS: I would love to see the evaluation scheme Larry Kaufman presented to Ron, so I could give it a try for myself :D

Programming and (lots of) debugging regards,
Paul
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Post by Monsieur Plastique »

Fluppio wrote:Personally I would prefer Ron Nelson solo as programmer, as we don't know if Larry Kaufman has done any work besides consulting.
I tend to agree. Without knowing precisely what contributions were made and their nature, it is arguably more inaccurate to credit additional authors than it is to simply credit Ron. As for attack tables, again we do not the precise nature of the intellectual property exchanges that any or may not have gone on.

I think trying ascribe too may credits for specific authorship would be getting up there with co-crediting Paul McMartney's Mum and Dad for Love Me Do.

I think it is better to simply ascribe authorship to Ron but to add qualifying comments that there was a consultancy type of interaction both in terms of Kaufmann and in terms of Ken Thompson and the Belle Attack Tables.

I would be unhappy not to see these qualifications in the same way I would be unhappy to see two or three authors credited.
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Post by Fernando »

Monsieur Plastique wrote:
Fluppio wrote:Personally I would prefer Ron Nelson solo as programmer, as we don't know if Larry Kaufman has done any work besides consulting.
I tend to agree. Without knowing precisely what contributions were made and their nature, it is arguably more inaccurate to credit additional authors than it is to simply credit Ron. As for attack tables, again we do not the precise nature of the intellectual property exchanges that any or may not have gone on.

I think trying ascribe too may credits for specific authorship would be getting up there with co-crediting Paul McMartney's Mum and Dad for Love Me Do.

I think it is better to simply ascribe authorship to Ron but to add qualifying comments that there was a consultancy type of interaction both in terms of Kaufmann and in terms of Ken Thompson and the Belle Attack Tables.

I would be unhappy not to see these qualifications in the same way I would be unhappy to see two or three authors credited.

Sole authorship of anything appertain perhaps to the gold age of Greece. When everything is just being invented, isolated guys carry the flag; after that everything tends to be an interchange where the last guy to sign or collect the stuff is credited, but is already a collective labor.
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Post by Monsieur Plastique »

I forgot to add one thing (and no, I am honestly not trying to open a can of worms or to aggravate anyone here - honestly, I am not, particularly hardcore die-hard Nelson fans).

As I have said many times before (and this is borne out on rating lists), the later Nelson machines suffered a considerable drop in strength compared to GM. As many will know, that was actually a fundamental basis for my difficulty in accepting Nelson as the author of GM / Mirage engine specifically, since never have I ever known any other engine programmer whose work actually suffered such a significant decline in strength as the years went by.

But of course Ron explained a basis for that - the quasi 6502 architecture was used in subsequent machines and with that, no attack tables and no pondering.

But I do have to point this out: The drop in strength with the later machines is massive. No, it is not too strong a word to use. And it is not just my personal results of hundreds of personal human versus computer games against these machines that bears this out - it's the rating lists - both public and private that bear it out too. For example, the difference at Schachcomputer at the present moments sits at a massive (there is that word again) 300 points or so (I don't believe the difference is that much but is easily more than a class interval - of that I have no doubt whatsoever).

So I guess what I am trying to say is that whilst prima facie (without knowing how powerful the later hardware architecture is compared to that of the GM) it is hard to accurately quantify the value of these attack tables and Kaufmann's "consultancy", nevertheless, I do believe these factors are largely responsible for a highly significant gain in playing strength.

I have gone as far as to play VERY long games against a machine like Alexandra. I mean - 40 moves in 3 hour games - something no one else has done - and quite frankly the machine does not subjectively improve at all. It still plays weak 1600 level chess and feels exactly the same at 40 in 90 as it does at 40 in 3 hours. As someone said to me recently, if you have an ordinary program, it is just going to take more time to make ordinary moves.

I am not trying to denigrate Nelson's work, but I cannot get my mind past this feeling that the Kaufmann consultancy and "attack tables" added considerable merit and considerable strength to the program, since GM plays a game so foreign to the Alexendra and others of that ilk that on the face it there is no evidence the same person had anything remotely to do with those same machines.

I therefore have to conclude that based on my experience, viz:

- My score against GM is middling at best

- My score against Alexandra is absolutely crushing

- The public and private rating list discrepancy between the two bears out my own experience, with some lists showing a discrepancy as large as 300 points at 40 moves in 2 hours.

- Alexandra chess playing ability does not materially improve given extraordinarily generous time limits that would otherwise partly mitigate the speed differences between an H8 and high-speed quasi-6502.


that the additional consultancy provided by Kaufmann and the Belle Attack Tables were arguably worth well over one hundred points - a massive gain in my book. So you can see that whilst I am happy for Ron to take the credit (since his authorship is now undisputed), I am exceptionally uncomfortable without that authorship being qualified in the same breath (and on the same web page!).
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Post by Fernando »

Monsieur Plastique wrote:I forgot to add one thing (and no, I am honestly not trying to open a can of worms or to aggravate anyone here - honestly, I am not, particularly hardcore die-hard Nelson fans).

As I have said many times before (and this is borne out on rating lists), the later Nelson machines suffered a considerable drop in strength compared to GM. As many will know, that was actually a fundamental basis for my difficulty in accepting Nelson as the author of GM / Mirage engine specifically, since never have I ever known any other engine programmer whose work actually suffered such a significant decline in strength as the years went by.

But of course Ron explained a basis for that - the quasi 6502 architecture was used in subsequent machines and with that, no attack tables and no pondering.

But I do have to point this out: The drop in strength with the later machines is massive. No, it is not too strong a word to use. And it is not just my personal results of hundreds of personal human versus computer games against these machines that bears this out - it's the rating lists - both public and private that bear it out too. For example, the difference at Schachcomputer at the present moments sits at a massive (there is that word again) 300 points or so (I don't believe the difference is that much but is easily more than a class interval - of that I have no doubt whatsoever).

So I guess what I am trying to say is that whilst prima facie (without knowing how powerful the later hardware architecture is compared to that of the GM) it is hard to accurately quantify the value of these attack tables and Kaufmann's "consultancy", nevertheless, I do believe these factors are largely responsible for a highly significant gain in playing strength.

I have gone as far as to play VERY long games against a machine like Alexandra. I mean - 40 moves in 3 hour games - something no one else has done - and quite frankly the machine does not subjectively improve at all. It still plays weak 1600 level chess and feels exactly the same at 40 in 90 as it does at 40 in 3 hours. As someone said to me recently, if you have an ordinary program, it is just going to take more time to make ordinary moves.

I am not trying to denigrate Nelson's work, but I cannot get my mind past this feeling that the Kaufmann consultancy and "attack tables" added considerable merit and considerable strength to the program, since GM plays a game so foreign to the Alexendra and others of that ilk that on the face it there is no evidence the same person had anything remotely to do with those same machines.

I therefore have to conclude that based on my experience, viz:

- My score against GM is middling at best

- My score against Alexandra is absolutely crushing

- The public and private rating list discrepancy between the two bears out my own experience, with some lists showing a discrepancy as large as 300 points at 40 moves in 2 hours.

- Alexandra chess playing ability does not materially improve given extraordinarily generous time limits that would otherwise partly mitigate the speed differences between an H8 and high-speed quasi-6502.


that the additional consultancy provided by Kaufmann and the Belle Attack Tables were arguably worth well over one hundred points - a massive gain in my book. So you can see that whilst I am happy for Ron to take the credit (since his authorship is now undisputed), I am exceptionally uncomfortable without that authorship being qualified in the same breath (and on the same web page!).
Looks like you have made a substantial and plausible point. It adds to my perceptions of things. I cannot avoid the knowledge that Ron is a human being after all, so prone to maximize his pros and diminish his cons. I will say it straight: I do NOT TAKE every word said by Ron -and from nobody- as a saying by our Lord Jesus.
Not that I believe he is lying, how could I l know, but I do feel he has embellished somehow the past.

Kauffman has been essential in programs like Rybka and Komodo. Why not also in GM?

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Post by spacious_mind »

Monsieur Plastique wrote:I forgot to add one thing (and no, I am honestly not trying to open a can of worms or to aggravate anyone here - honestly, I am not, particularly hardcore die-hard Nelson fans).

As I have said many times before (and this is borne out on rating lists), the later Nelson machines suffered a considerable drop in strength compared to GM. As many will know, that was actually a fundamental basis for my difficulty in accepting Nelson as the author of GM / Mirage engine specifically, since never have I ever known any other engine programmer whose work actually suffered such a significant decline in strength as the years went by.

But of course Ron explained a basis for that - the quasi 6502 architecture was used in subsequent machines and with that, no attack tables and no pondering.

But I do have to point this out: The drop in strength with the later machines is massive. No, it is not too strong a word to use. And it is not just my personal results of hundreds of personal human versus computer games against these machines that bears this out - it's the rating lists - both public and private that bear it out too. For example, the difference at Schachcomputer at the present moments sits at a massive (there is that word again) 300 points or so (I don't believe the difference is that much but is easily more than a class interval - of that I have no doubt whatsoever).

So I guess what I am trying to say is that whilst prima facie (without knowing how powerful the later hardware architecture is compared to that of the GM) it is hard to accurately quantify the value of these attack tables and Kaufmann's "consultancy", nevertheless, I do believe these factors are largely responsible for a highly significant gain in playing strength.

I have gone as far as to play VERY long games against a machine like Alexandra. I mean - 40 moves in 3 hour games - something no one else has done - and quite frankly the machine does not subjectively improve at all. It still plays weak 1600 level chess and feels exactly the same at 40 in 90 as it does at 40 in 3 hours. As someone said to me recently, if you have an ordinary program, it is just going to take more time to make ordinary moves.

I am not trying to denigrate Nelson's work, but I cannot get my mind past this feeling that the Kaufmann consultancy and "attack tables" added considerable merit and considerable strength to the program, since GM plays a game so foreign to the Alexendra and others of that ilk that on the face it there is no evidence the same person had anything remotely to do with those same machines.

I therefore have to conclude that based on my experience, viz:

- My score against GM is middling at best

- My score against Alexandra is absolutely crushing

- The public and private rating list discrepancy between the two bears out my own experience, with some lists showing a discrepancy as large as 300 points at 40 moves in 2 hours.

- Alexandra chess playing ability does not materially improve given extraordinarily generous time limits that would otherwise partly mitigate the speed differences between an H8 and high-speed quasi-6502.


that the additional consultancy provided by Kaufmann and the Belle Attack Tables were arguably worth well over one hundred points - a massive gain in my book. So you can see that whilst I am happy for Ron to take the credit (since his authorship is now undisputed), I am exceptionally uncomfortable without that authorship being qualified in the same breath (and on the same web page!).
I think if you go back and read all of Nelson's comments, he explained that for Alexandra a lower quality chip was used to the H8, which resulted due to not enough ROM space the removal of the Attack Tables as well as the ability to Ponder to make it all fit. This program was later repeatedly reused with other computers of that Genre ie. New Times Deluxe, Phantom Force, Touch Chess, Touch Chess & Checkers & Touch Chess II, Ivan II to name most of them in this category. Also it really does seem that Alexandra is 5 MHz and the rest of the above probably the same or even less in some cases. Therefore with Ponder removed and Attack tables dropped and add 5 MHz instead of 10 MHz you come to the strength of these computers some of which also repeated themselves with the Einsteins. All of these also seem to have very little RAM as well.


As for the other computers like the Chess Station which is a 4 Bit at best 6 MHz or Crusader 1 MHz 8 bit, you have computers that actually do very well to play at ELO 1300 - 1400 considering their Hardware. These continued to be used repeatedly as well even into the Einsteins. His list seems to confirm this.

I think with as little that we have been able to get from Ron, he has actually explained a very lot about Excalibur Computers.

Just my thoughts....regards

ps it looks like the Einsteins came out after Ron had already left Excalibur per his timetable.
Last edited by spacious_mind on Mon Dec 28, 2015 10:35 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by Steve B »

Fluppio wrote:Hi at all,

it's only our hobby :roll:

Many years Ron was listed as the programmer in the wiki for Excalibur chess computers, only erased because of the long discussion here on Hiarcs forum. Now we should calm a few days, because there are still different opinions in who should be named in the wiki. Personally I would prefer Ron Nelson solo as programmer, as we don't know if Larry Kaufman has done any work besides consulting. F.e. Ossi Weiner or Noomen aren't mentioned too for the Richard Lang programs, so this shouldn't be done with Ron Nelson. My opinion.
i agree here 100%
another example..Sandro Necchi of (Shredder fame) wrote the books for some of the early 8 bit Mephisto modules ..i believe they were for Rathmans programs and we dont see him mentioned as well..
before i start another controversy...the answer is NO.....i cannot prove this ..the only proof i have of this is what Necchi told me himself

Nelson All By Himself Regards
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Post by Monsieur Plastique »

Fernando wrote:I cannot avoid the knowledge that Ron is a human being after all, so prone to maximize his pros and diminish his cons.
As you intimate, it is a natural thing that most of us do - probably with very little thought. Every time someone writes their own resume - formal or in a defacto context - they are painting themselves in the best possible light. And I have never seen a person's resume and found that it agrees with my own assessment of them. Infact my work colleagues and I used to have a bit of a laugh when our company continually downsized and we are always writing our own resumes. They were always a good laugh because our resumes made us all look like we could rule the world, even though on a purely technical level you could not actually dispute the printed word. Or perhaps to put if more accurately, debunk the written word. Actually, it would be a hilarious world if we were all completely and utterly honest to each other about our personal and professional strengths and weaknesses on a routine basis.

Do I say, for example on a hypothetical resume that I reached professional diploma standard on the violin and gave a solo performance at the Sydney Opera House to a packed and enthusiastic audience? All completely true and beyond any dispute. They are facts. But it is all about word constructions and painting a rosy picture. Or do I tell it this way? Well, yes, I got to 7th grade and aced the exam with an A plus. I was then studying the A. Mus. A diploma work and had met all the practical requirements for the exam having got the repertoire all ready and passed the test. But you also had to take an extensive theory exam which would have taken a heck of a lot of extra study. But by then, I got sick of the whole thing and realised that at 18 I needed to get into a proper profession, since I realised I would never make it as a pro. So I went into a computer traineeship (for which I am eternally thankful, though I remain a a passionate classical music enthusiast and knowledgeable connoisseur to this day, especially on the subject of the violin). So I never did the diploma even though I did the practical work which when you think about it, it what actually matters in a performance. So yes, I did play at the actual standard and there are no actual lies in that original phrasing I wrote. And as for that solo? Well it was a 5 minute performance of a Brahms Hungarian Dance at a school end of year awards night. It wasn't a 30 minute performance of the Mendelssohn with the Sydney Symphony followed by an encore of Paganini's 4th Caprice...

Look, I appreciate Nelson's contributions as much as anyone though I have to admit I am not really the Nelson fanboy that many others are. But that said, I acknowledge him without any question whatsoever as a genuine pioneer, competent producer of beginner and hobby level machines and obviously an ingenious micro-electrical engineer. His contributions are substantial beyond any doubt whatsoever. I even have a higher opinion of him having read some of anecdotes - for example the loan he made to Fidelity and the issues surrounding the Mephisto buyout.

And yes, I have to admit that many broken Excalibur machines over the years as has soured my taste for those products (though my Excellence remains perfectly serviceable - at least after resoldering the entire circuit board!!).

Still, I think I have taken away from this a summation of everything that transpired which I am happy with. I acknowledge that Ron Nelson authored the GM but at the same time in my opinion the contributions made by others in the overall production of that model (and Mirage, H8 Igor) were substantial enough that they quite simply have to be acknowledged in the same breath. To do so is I think a disservice. Furthermore, without the necessary qualifications to authorship, there is no real explanation for the drop in strength in later machines, since as I say it cannot be explained purely by a slower processor and lack of pondering.
Chess is like painting the Mona Lisa whilst walking through a minefield.
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