Final, definitive Post about Nelson....

[spacious_mind]

Posts continuously reference Igor & GM without reference to the father Mirage.

I have already said that the notion that Mirage came out of the Blue from Krypton is not reasonable
so you mentioning Mirage as somehow it being clearly not a Nelson engine is faulty and simply ignores my repeated posts on this issue
one final time

I believe.. that White who worked for CXG at the Time Nelson was a heavy investor in CXG leaves to go to Krypton with Nelsons Engine and they release the Mirage with the same Robotic technology as used in the Fidelity Phantoms
probably everything cross -licensed an legal

Nick out of all respect.. its time my friend.. to just move on

Regards
Steve

Not possible Nelson at that time was employed with Mephisto when White was at CXG. Whose engine, you state his? Which one? I think Mike had already responded to the Robot Technology. Even for that there is no clear path of knowledge of what came from where.

[klute]

I clone test a lot and agree with that. Your conclusions however are what?

I think I need a more specific answer from you because your conclusion is something from Spracklen has been added. In your opinion for all the computers or Grandmaster only?

Mirage is the father of these computers therefore my conclusions remain correct. Igor is 100% the same from clone tests as Mirage. Mirage came from Krypton and not Nelson therefore you have a few possibilities to consider:

1) if GM is also 100% the same as Mirage (clone tests) then either the Spracklen theory is wrong or the modifier is a Krypton person. Hence the authorship of the modifications were not made by Ron Nelson.
2) If the modifications only apply to the GM. Modifications by using other peoples chess programs does not equal chess program author. It never has, it never will. Ask Rybka.

Best regards

Hi Nick

What I am stating in regard to the Excalibur GM program (although if true it might also apply to known related / clone programs) is that I recall being told by Ron Nelson, or being informed by someone else who had communicated with Ron Nelson, that Spracklen Attack Tables are incorporated.

That is my "claim" - I personally don't mind what people choose to make of my recollection.

Regards

Cameron

[Steve B]

Posts continuously reference Igor & GM without reference to the father Mirage.

I have already said that the notion that Mirage came out of the Blue from Krypton is not reasonable
so you mentioning Mirage as somehow it being clearly not a Nelson engine is faulty and simply ignores my repeated posts on this issue
one final time

I believe.. that White who worked for CXG at the Time Nelson was a heavy investor in CXG leaves to go to Krypton with Nelsons Engine and they release the Mirage with the same Robotic technology as used in the Fidelity Phantoms
probably everything cross -licensed an legal

Nick out of all respect.. its time my friend.. to just move on

Regards
Steve

Not possible Nelson at that time was employed with Mephisto when White was at CXG. Whose engine, you state his? Which one? I think Mike had already responded to the Robot Technology. Even for that there is no clear path of knowledge of what came from where.

Nelson and Samole invested in CXG during its final days...as I have posted before ...the same time White was there
Mike mentioned the Robotic technology Fidelity Used was from Milton
Bradley which I say was undoubtedly legally Licensed by Fidelity
Krypton essays forth the Mirage and what do you know...license's it back to Excalibur for sale in the US

Nelsons hands are all over the Mirage

Final Post Regards
Steve

[spacious_mind]

I clone test a lot and agree with that. Your conclusions however are what?

I think I need a more specific answer from you because your conclusion is something from Spracklen has been added. In your opinion for all the computers or Grandmaster only?

Mirage is the father of these computers therefore my conclusions remain correct. Igor is 100% the same from clone tests as Mirage. Mirage came from Krypton and not Nelson therefore you have a few possibilities to consider:

1) if GM is also 100% the same as Mirage (clone tests) then either the Spracklen theory is wrong or the modifier is a Krypton person. Hence the authorship of the modifications were not made by Ron Nelson.
2) If the modifications only apply to the GM. Modifications by using other peoples chess programs does not equal chess program author. It never has, it never will. Ask Rybka.

Best regards

Hi Nick

What I am stating in regard to the Excalibur GM program (although if true it might also apply to known related / clone programs) is that I recall being told by Ron Nelson, or being informed by someone else who had communicated with Ron Nelson, that Spracklen Attack Tables are incorporated.

That is my "claim" - I personally don't mind what people choose to make of my recollection.

Regards

Cameron

Hi Cameron

Thanks with that I will test my two GM's this weekend. Conclusions remain the same however:

1) Either they all have it (hard to prove), but these would then have been incorporated by Krypton. (Mirage was proudly exhibited in Germany by Eric White as his baby (from Eric White's mouth) prior to North America Only Licensing) Hence authorship disputes and even visionary disputes.
2) GM only was modified.

Best regards

[klute]

1) Either they all have it (hard to prove), but these would then have been incorporated by Krypton. (Mirage was proudly exhibited in Germany by Eric White as his baby (from Eric White's mouth) prior to North America Only Licensing) Hence authorship disputes and even visionary disputes.
2) GM only was modified.
Best regards

Hi Nick

Just ascertaining beyond reasonable doubt whether or not the Excalibur GM program really does incorporate Spracklen Attack Tables, would be, in my opinion, very difficult.

One of my conjectures is that _if_ (I say _if_ to try and placate the two equally adamant schools of thought here!) Ron Nelson is the primary author of Excalibur GM, then incorporation of some Spracklen or other programmer techniques (plus pondering) could well add about 100 ELO points to a typical non-pondering H8 Excalibur machine.

Regards

Cameron

[klute]

What are these "Attack Tables" anyway?

Here you go Monsieur Plastique!

https://chessprogramming.wikispaces.com ... efend+Maps

Here's an interesting period article that mentions them in passing:

http://www.chesscomputeruk.com/Your_Com ... y_1982.pdf

[spacious_mind]

1) Either they all have it (hard to prove), but these would then have been incorporated by Krypton. (Mirage was proudly exhibited in Germany by Eric White as his baby (from Eric White's mouth) prior to North America Only Licensing) Hence authorship disputes and even visionary disputes.
2) GM only was modified.
Best regards

Hi Nick

Just ascertaining beyond reasonable doubt whether or not the Excalibur GM program really does incorporate Spracklen Attack Tables, would be, in my opinion, very difficult.

One of my conjectures is that _if_ (I say _if_ to try and placate the two equally adamant schools of thought here!) Ron Nelson is the primary author of Excalibur GM, then incorporation of some Spracklen or other programmer techniques (plus pondering) could well add about 100 ELO points to a typical non-pondering H8 Excalibur machine.

Regards

Cameron

You know there is a very good possibility of everyone being right, it just takes a little bit of making room for that thought.

Best regards

[spacious_mind]

1) Either they all have it (hard to prove), but these would then have been incorporated by Krypton. (Mirage was proudly exhibited in Germany by Eric White as his baby (from Eric White's mouth) prior to North America Only Licensing) Hence authorship disputes and even visionary disputes.
2) GM only was modified.
Best regards

Hi Nick

Just ascertaining beyond reasonable doubt whether or not the Excalibur GM program really does incorporate Spracklen Attack Tables, would be, in my opinion, very difficult.

One of my conjectures is that _if_ (I say _if_ to try and placate the two equally adamant schools of thought here!) Ron Nelson is the primary author of Excalibur GM, then incorporation of some Spracklen or other programmer techniques (plus pondering) could well add about 100 ELO points to a typical non-pondering H8 Excalibur machine.

Regards

Cameron

More hints towards a possibility of everyone being right. What would happen if these were included into a program that was already advanced? Would it change its behavior but at the same time add no visible improvements in playing strength?

Best regards

[spacious_mind]

Another hinted question. What would happen if you did not quite have sufficient space to incorporate this change in a ROM? Some non influential piece of programming would need to be removed right?

[spacious_mind]

And yet another hint. What would you do if after all is done you find that you have a teeny weeny bit of space left that you could use. What would you do with it? I know I am a marketing man, I would add something easy and existing that could be used as a positive sales feature

Wow........

[Monsieur Plastique]

you find that you have a teeny weeny bit of space left that you could use. What would you do with it?

It amazed me when dedicated ROMs first became available on the internet it was clear the ROM often wasn't filled to capacity. Then again, these programmers were all far more proficient than Nelson and were able to produce a significantly higher calibre program in much less space with much greater playing strength.

As for these Attack Tables, if we do take an estimate of 100 ELO, then I'd be forced to speculate that Nelson - whilst possibly being a co-author - had very little to do with the actual chess playing ability of the program than merely incorporating some algorithms coded by someone else. We need to find something like a 200 ELO gap here. It's such a huge difference on the same hardware at that ELO standard I'd be wagering all but some fundamental operations in the program were by parties other than Nelson. Perhaps it is closer to my original summations after all in that the Nelson's contributions to the engine related mainly to the I/O interfacing between the engine and the hardware - something that was obviously Nelson's forte.

On the other hand, these attack tables could be mind-blowingly amazing and worth a whole class on the same hardware, but I very much doubt it. It usually takes an entirely new engine to gain those sorts of ELO points. Not even the best programmers like Morsch managed such ELO gains unless they basically started from scratch again.

[spacious_mind]

OK hypothetically speaking here is what I think might have happened. Around 1993 Krypton (Eric White & David Levy) manufacturers get together with their fairly new North American Distributor Excalibur. Maybe a sales meeting where they are all reviewing the products that Excalibur wants to consider buying for their next year's sales portfolio. Everything is reviewed the computers, packaging, pricing, marketing material, the whole 9 yards.

So Krypton sits there together with Samole and his cronies and during these talks one side or the other says, "man you had a nice thing going with that robot of yours" or "man wish you had something more unique in your production range, something that would create big interest and great reaction from the public".

It doesn't really matter who came up with the idea, fact is though that Krypton ended up building Mirage. From a conversation and collaberation like this. Both companies ended up leveraging something.

Krypton with a Phantom sitting on their desk and drawings and advice received from Excalibur ended up building a smaller & cheaper Phantom.

Although Mirage looks great, it had it's quality problems which at the end of the day stopped Krypton from selling it Worldwide to the benefit of Excalibur who still wanted it as they saw it as something exclusive to legitimize their business in America and enhance their Sales Catalog and Marketing Campaigns.

For that knowledge which cost Excalibur absolutely nothing, they in return received better pricing discounts on all the computers they bought that only helped them to get bigger faster, and sell more computers quickly to make more profit quicker in America and help them to get closer to their secret goal (at that time) being once more a respected independent manufacturer of chess computers. So there was a win-win which benefited Excalibur even more so than Krypton and cost them nothing, other than some knowhow which Samole knew he could provide through Nelson.

Krypton as manufacturer initially thought they would benefit a lot from the extra knowhow but at the end of the day probably did not benefit as much as expected because they could never build Mirage to a quality standard to meet European quality expectations.

Quality by the way is a failing that moved around with Nelson. He could never really ever get that under control at Fidelity or at Excalibur. He lacked something in this area.

Eric White must have been a little disappointed because China manufacturing and German Chess Computer pricing could have equaled huge profits had it worked.

This explains Eric White showing it off at the German Exhibition almost a year before Mirage was sold exclusively in North America. He was at that time very excited about it, but his excitement cooled off over the next 9-12 months.

From a timeline perspective, the idea of Mirage must most likely have been birthed while Nelson was still working for Mephisto therefore more likely the idea was first hashed around the table with Samole & Krypton (just a thought based on timelines).

Neither company was stupid, both knew that the Fidelity Phantom did not sell in huge enormous numbers either, but for Krypton adding knowhow to their manufacturing seemed probably important and for Samole receiving products at great pricing was just as important at that time.

Throughout subsequent collaborative discussions obviously the program itself became a topic of discussion as well. Krypton's best was Horvath's program which had already been used extensively in past CXG models. Excalibur also had nothing really that they could give either without making it obvious to other manufacturers where the program came from. Nelson was not stupid, he had things that he had kept over the year's that is obvious. This was his leverage with Samole, even while still under Mephisto employment.

But someone came up with the idea of "hey what if we take out this, add this, would we not now get this".

This idea now does sound as something that Nelson could easily have first suggested and assisted in, it might even have been collaboration meetings with David Levy's Team. And perhaps these "Spracklen Attack Tables" was something that they could legitimately use for that purpose.

This must have been a give and take collaboration and it is obvious to me that Krypton would not give up complete control of their bigger bargaining stick, which was their manufacturing, their computers and their programs. If someone had to give up rights then it would have had to be Excalibur with their status as Distributor. Therefore Horvath engine remained with all it's levels, evaluations and stuff and "Spracklen" was added.

Nelson may even have spent time in Hong Kong/China as paid contractor/consultant to Krypton while Mirage was being developed. Nelson was not idle during this time either. His speech ideas were revisited and other products came into existence because of this. Nelson kept his inventor rights and Ivan speech and other later computers were founded.

This idea is also something that Krypton would have liked a lot as changing an already owned chess program by adding some additional new ideas from someone else would be far cheaper than contracting someone to create a new chess engine.

This to me would also explain why Krypton Regency does not play exactly the same as Legend either. Whatever it was that was added allowed more flexibility to change a chess program. This also explains why it has been so uncanny in that it doesn't matter how differently Legend or Igor move the end strength always ends up being "Equal strength"

Therefore everyone is right. Eric White thinks its his, Nelson thinks it is his and probably Samole thinks it is his. Everyone is right if everyone were to just "give a little bit" (Supertramp song)


Therefore to summarize, I believe the chess program is a Horvath with additions that could easily have come from a Spracklen program. After all the original Phantom is a Spracklen.

It all sounds too simple to me.

Best regards

[spacious_mind]

On the other hand, these attack tables could be mind-blowingly amazing and worth a whole class on the same hardware, but I very much doubt it. It usually takes an entirely new engine to gain those sorts of ELO points. Not even the best programmers like Morsch managed such ELO gains unless they basically started from scratch again.

I think you might get good moves and equally really bad moves which at the end of the day cancel each other out as possibly shown in the link below with particularly the move 8. Qf3??

http://hiarcs.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=6967&start=15

And the final strength ends up +/- 0 improvement. But you might get a completely new exiting opponent to play against.

Don't know if it would add strength to an equally well written program which Horvath's program obviously is.

Just thoughts to consider.

Regards

[mclane]

1) Either they all have it (hard to prove), but these would then have been incorporated by Krypton. (Mirage was proudly exhibited in Germany by Eric White as his baby (from Eric White's mouth) prior to North America Only Licensing) Hence authorship disputes and even visionary disputes.
2) GM only was modified.
Best regards

Hi Nick

Just ascertaining beyond reasonable doubt whether or not the Excalibur GM program really does incorporate Spracklen Attack Tables, would be, in my opinion, very difficult.

One of my conjectures is that _if_ (I say _if_ to try and placate the two equally adamant schools of thought here!) Ron Nelson is the primary author of Excalibur GM, then incorporation of some Spracklen or other programmer techniques (plus pondering) could well add about 100 ELO points to a typical non-pondering H8 Excalibur machine.

Regards

Cameron

The difference in elo between Nelson and spracklen maschines in The early days was not that big. 1394 with Nelson on z80a with 4 MHz (NO permanent brain). 1550 spracklen with 6502 2 MHz (permanent brain).

There is 1 year of development between the program versions. Nelson was 1980 and spracklen was 1981.

If we conclude that z80a with 4 MHz equals 6502 with 2 MHz we can estimate the difference between them was maybe 100 elo, if we give 50 elo for permanent brain feature.
Also spracklens book was 3500 plus and Nelson only 1000.

If we now give Nelson bigger book, permanent brain and a h8 CPU ....

Z80 with 4 MHz has 0.58 MIPS.
The slowest earliest h8 from 1990 has 2.43 MIPS.

Let's say factor 4.

So now take Nelson 1394. Give it factor 4 CPU and permanent brain and bigger book and let's estimate that over the years Nelson put also some later ideas into the algorithm because in 1980 computer chess was not so much known and in 1997, 17 years later !!!! New algorithms like null move, pre processing and and and was known.... And voila you have grandmaster or igor.

There is no need for stealing code from spracklen or using horvaths engine or whatever conspiracy you want to construct.

Occam's razor makes sure: normal changes and progress from 1980 to 1997, bigger book, permanent brain, 4 times the CPU speed, ...
That's all it needs.

We do not need conspiracy theories.

All we need is to understand that Nelson could have made the progress between sensory voice and igor/grandmaster all by himself.

[mclane]

And we can say that the earliest h8 from 1990 is slower then the h8 3214 from 1997. So maybe the h8 3214 used is even faster then these 2.43 MIPS.