Three times repetition of a position

[SchuBi]

According the FIDE Laws of Chess (9.2) the game is drawn, when the same position for at least the third time (not necessarily by a repetition of moves) is about to appear.
On Online-Servers like Lichess the three-times repetion is implemented.
HCEPro does not show a three times repetition of a position.
Could this be implemented in HCE Pro?
As chess arbiter i have to check, wether a claim of a draw (9.2) is justified
My old Mac-database Exachess (from 1996) detects a tree times repetition.

[mrudolf]

According the FIDE Laws of Chess (9.2) the game is drawn, when the same position for at least the third time (not necessarily by a repetition of moves) is about to appear.

This is inaccurate. The threefold repetition does not automatically end the game, it requires a valid claim. So, we cannot automatically assume the threefold is a draw.

HCEPro does not show a three times repetition of a position.
Could this be implemented in HCE Pro?
As chess arbiter i have to check, wether a claim of a draw (9.2) is justified

We can detect it (it is detected during play), but we did not have any idea what to do with the information. I did not consider helping arbiters as I assume they use some DGT software for live games, not HCE.

One idea we considered was showing repeated positions within the game to help you detect transpositions. This will not be limited to threefold repetitions but will help to spot them.

[SchuBi]

As chess arbiter i have to check, wether a claim of a draw (9.2) is justified

We can detect it (it is detected during play), but we did not have any idea what to do with the information. I did not consider helping arbiters as I assume they use some DGT software for live games, not HCE.

If DGT-Boards ar used, this would be true.
But in team-championships most clubs have no DGT-boards, but use instead normal chessboards.
The same situation is in smaller open-tournaments.
After a claim of draw according to 9.2. I have to check the game notation, wether there was a three times repetition.

One idea we considered was showing repeated positions within the game to help you detect transpositions. This will not be limited to threefold repetitions but will help to spot them.

In such situations it would be useful.
Could this be implemented?
Kind regards

[mrudolf]

In such situations it would be useful.
Could this be implemented?

I think so. Once 1.2 is out, we will plan features for 1.3.

[Trahald]

One idea we considered was showing repeated positions within the game to help you detect transpositions. This will not be limited to threefold repetitions but will help to spot them.

In such situations it would be useful.
Could this be implemented?
Kind regards

Would like to see this feature added as well.

[SchuBi]

Does version recognize repition of a position?
I have not found anything.
[Event "?"] [Site "?"] [Date "2024.02.15"] [Round "?"] [White "?"] [Black "?"] [Result "*"] [ECO "A05"] [PlyCount "24"] 1.Nf3 Nf6 2.Nc3 Nc6 3.Ng1 Ng8 4.Nb1 Nb8 5.Nf3 Nf6 6.Nc3 Nc6 7.Ng1 Ng8 8.Nb1 Nb8 9.Nf3 Nf6 10.Nc3 Nc6 11.Ng1 Ng8 12.Nb1 Nb8 *

[mrudolf]

No, it wasn't implemented yet.

[Yarc]

Does version recognize repition of a position?
I have not found anything.
[Event "?"] [Site "?"] [Date "2024.02.15"] [Round "?"] [White "?"] [Black "?"] [Result "*"] [ECO "A05"] [PlyCount "24"] 1.Nf3 Nf6 2.Nc3 Nc6 3.Ng1 Ng8 4.Nb1 Nb8 5.Nf3 Nf6 6.Nc3 Nc6 7.Ng1 Ng8 8.Nb1 Nb8 9.Nf3 Nf6 10.Nc3 Nc6 11.Ng1 Ng8 12.Nb1 Nb8 *

I'm probably stating the obvious and you know this already! One semi-automatic way to detect a drawn position would be to set HCE to analysis mode and step through the moves of the game. I did this with your test game and on the 3rd repetition the eval was 0.00 and no more analysis took place.

[SchuBi]

I'm probably stating the obvious and you know this already! One semi-automatic way to detect a drawn position would be to set HCE to analysis mode and step through the moves of the game. I did this with your test game and on the 3rd repetition the eval was 0.00 and no more analysis took place.

This example is obvious - you don’t need HCE to see the threefold repetition.
As arbiter in a tournamentor or a league match things are not so clear. An evalution of 0.00 does not always state, that there is a repitition with the same player to move and the same move possibilities.
ExaChess (Mac, no langer developed, see example at the start of the thread) did this while entering the moves.

[gads]

If you need computer software to see 3 fold repetition, don't be an arbiter. Don't be lazy and do the work. It is just seeing whether the exact same pieces appear 3 times, the exact en passant opportunities appear 3 times and whether castling rights for both sides are exactly the same 3 times. It is not difficult at all.

[Yarc]

I'm probably stating the obvious and you know this already! One semi-automatic way to detect a drawn position would be to set HCE to analysis mode and step through the moves of the game. I did this with your test game and on the 3rd repetition the eval was 0.00 and no more analysis took place.

This example is obvious - you don’t need HCE to see the threefold repetition.
As arbiter in a tournamentor or a league match things are not so clear. An evalution of 0.00 does not always state, that there is a repitition with the same player to move and the same move possibilities.
ExaChess (Mac, no langer developed, see example at the start of the thread) did this while entering the moves.

I did say it was only semi-automatic, it still requires the person to identify that it's actually 3-fold. I used your test game as an example, but it should apply to any game. Just thought that someone could quickly replay the game and if they see an eval of 0.0 and no more analysis this might be a draw by 3-fold repetition, so may help to quickly identify a possible 3-fold draw. If it does not help then fair enough, was just a suggestion.

[Yarc]

If you need computer software to see 3 fold repetition, don't be an arbiter. Don't be lazy and do the work. It is just seeing whether the exact same pieces appear 3 times, the exact en passant opportunities appear 3 times and whether castling rights for both sides are exactly the same 3 times. It is not difficult at all.

The only thing I would say to this is that as you are aware the 3-fold repetition rule means the same position at any point in a game. For long games where the same position may occur several moves apart, the draw may not be quite so easy to spot. That being said, from games I've seen, such repeated positions have been close together, but I'm no arbiter so cannot speak from experience.

Either way, it looks like the HIARCS team may be implementing a feature to assist with identifying 3-fold positions in a future update so not much more need be said.

[mrudolf]

Either way, it looks like the HIARCS team may be implementing a feature to assist with identifying 3-fold positions in a future update so not much more need be said.

As this is not an automatic draw, we wanted to mark the places where the same position occurs. We are not yet sure how to handle the same position appearing in variations (useful for opening analysis, may be confusing for game analysis).

[SchuBi]

Thanks

[Yarc]

We are not yet sure how to handle the same position appearing in variations (useful for opening analysis, may be confusing for game analysis).

I appreciate the difficulty. Maybe the user could highlight the range of moves to be checked for repetition, this way the opening moves could be left out? Just a thought, but the downside is that manual intervention is required.