I've been looking around for a Turbo King for a while (understanding that the TK2 is the same device with an added endgame chip). It's largely a matter of seeking the best machines (sans modules) by individual programmers. The TK looks like the best available from Julio Kaplan.
They don't show up very often, but I was searching idly the other day and spotted this one:
http://tinyurl.com/lg6pshp
The whole package, including the box and manual. A bit of wear, but nothing too bad. So I watched, and wound up as the only watcher and the only bidder, paying the starting price of 74.99 USD.
That surprised the heck out of me. In fact, it's never happened in my prior bids for machines. I've looked for this one before and placed bids here and there, only to get beaten when the price exceeded the range I felt was reasonable. I'm still mystified - can't believe I was the only one paying attention.
For comparison's sake, take a look at this listing for the same item (still active). The starting price (buy it now) is double what I paid. The listing includes no packaging, no manual - just the board and pieces. Two watchers listed.
http://tinyurl.com/n9kff9f
Lucky regards,
- R.
The Joy of Scisys (strange)
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The Joy of Scisys (strange)
"You have, let us say, a promising politician, a rising artist that you wish to destroy. Dagger or bomb are archaic and unreliable - but teach him, inoculate him with chess."
– H.G. Wells
– H.G. Wells
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Cyberchess
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Re: The Joy of Scisys (strange)
CongratulationsReinfeld wrote:I've been looking around for a Turbo King for a while (understanding that the TK2 is the same device with an added endgame chip). It's largely a matter of seeking the best machines (sans modules) by individual programmers. The TK looks like the best available from Julio Kaplan.
They don't show up very often, but I was searching idly the other day and spotted this one:
http://tinyurl.com/lg6pshp
The whole package, including the box and manual. A bit of wear, but nothing too bad. So I watched, and wound up as the only watcher and the only bidder, paying the starting price of 74.99 USD.
That surprised the heck out of me. In fact, it's never happened in my prior bids for machines. I've looked for this one before and placed bids here and there, only to get beaten when the price exceeded the range I felt was reasonable. I'm still mystified - can't believe I was the only one paying attention.
For comparison's sake, take a look at this listing for the same item (still active). The starting price (buy it now) is double what I paid. The listing includes no packaging, no manual - just the board and pieces. Two watchers listed.
http://tinyurl.com/n9kff9f
Lucky regards,
- R.
This is the reason that I don’t engage in protracted bidding wars. Unless it’s really a one-of-a-kind item, sooner or later someone will auction another. Patience and perseverance are truly virtues.
Long live the Turbo King regards,
John
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Steve B
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Re: The Joy of Scisys (strange)
YesCyberchess wrote:CongratulationsReinfeld wrote:I've been looking around for a Turbo King for a while (understanding that the TK2 is the same device with an added endgame chip). It's largely a matter of seeking the best machines (sans modules) by individual programmers. The TK looks like the best available from Julio Kaplan.
They don't show up very often, but I was searching idly the other day and spotted this one:
http://tinyurl.com/lg6pshp
The whole package, including the box and manual. A bit of wear, but nothing too bad. So I watched, and wound up as the only watcher and the only bidder, paying the starting price of 74.99 USD.
That surprised the heck out of me. In fact, it's never happened in my prior bids for machines. I've looked for this one before and placed bids here and there, only to get beaten when the price exceeded the range I felt was reasonable. I'm still mystified - can't believe I was the only one paying attention.
For comparison's sake, take a look at this listing for the same item (still active). The starting price (buy it now) is double what I paid. The listing includes no packaging, no manual - just the board and pieces. Two watchers listed.
http://tinyurl.com/n9kff9f
Lucky regards,
- R.
This is the reason that I don’t engage in protracted bidding wars. Unless it’s really a one-of-a-kind item, sooner or later someone will auction another. Patience and perseverance are truly virtues.
Long live the Turbo King regards,
John
Patience..is the key to building a fine collection
that...and some
Spare Pocket Change Regards
Steve
Yes, congrats on the TK. You can just get lucky sometimes.
Personally, I'm not a fan of Kaplan, prefer Morsch or de Koning.
We discussed the TK versus the TK2 here some time back. The boxes,
it seems, are identical. The endgame ROM is pretty useless, but
rare.
The TK is a worthy addition to your collection, nonetheless...
L
Personally, I'm not a fan of Kaplan, prefer Morsch or de Koning.
We discussed the TK versus the TK2 here some time back. The boxes,
it seems, are identical. The endgame ROM is pretty useless, but
rare.
The TK is a worthy addition to your collection, nonetheless...
L
So I took a look at a 2010 thread on the Turbo King. Here's the link:
http://hiarcs.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=3373
And within it, this from Steve:
- R.
http://hiarcs.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=3373
And within it, this from Steve:
Wow. Given Mr. B's dedication, I'm surprised. Does this model hold no interest for you, Steve?i dont own the Turbo King
- R.
"You have, let us say, a promising politician, a rising artist that you wish to destroy. Dagger or bomb are archaic and unreliable - but teach him, inoculate him with chess."
– H.G. Wells
– H.G. Wells
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Steve B
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well i see you really did some research on the forum hereReinfeld wrote:So I took a look at a 2010 thread on the Turbo King. Here's the link:
http://hiarcs.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=3373
And within it, this from Steve:
Wow. Given Mr. B's dedication, I'm surprised. Does this model hold no interest for you, Steve?i dont own the Turbo King
- R.
i respect that
most folks ignore anything written here ...beyond the first page that loads up
Actually i never looked to acquire the Turbo King
dont know why..no real reason
something about it that just didn't interest me
maybe the housing...with that graph thingy
not to take anything away from your good news in acquiring it
Impressed Regards
Steve
Observations, no particular order:
A.
Here are my collecting biases:
1) I'll never own much wood. I will make exceptions for TASC and Revelation when I find the Maltese Falcon. I'm not interested in the great old Fidelities or Mephistos, though they're beautiful.
2) That cuts out modules. As a result, I try to limit myself to the best plastic by different programmers. For the big players (Lang, Morsch, de Koning, Schroder, Kittinger, Spracklen), those answers are pretty easy.
3) The Kaplan argument is not so clear, so I'm fascinated. For one thing, Kaplan machines appear to have widely different opening books. For another, the clone aspects haven't been fully explored.
A separate question is the amusing Radio Shack mystery. As Steve has said repeatedly, the literature on Radio Shack is virtually nonexistent. Wiki-Elo offers very little clarity on the relative strengths of Radio Shack machines.
B.
Steve framed the Kaplan strength question like this in a thread earlier this year. He was responding to a question about the Corona:
http://www.hiarcs.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=6584
Radio Shack 2150 - 1750
Radio Shack 2150L - 1720
Saitek Prisma - 1735
Saitek Kasparov Blitz - 1735
Saitek Simultano (version C) - 1806
SciSys Turbo King I - 1806
SciSys Turbo King II - 1868
Saitek Corona -
1800 to 2000 (says Wiki Elo, depending on version)
(SSDF gives 1701, and labels Corona and Simultano as clones)
I think the Radio Shack versions are poorly understood. I don't quite believe those ratings. I put more stock in the SciSys ratings, because there are fewer machines to choose from.
C.
Because the Corona is so variable, because I prefer to plastic to wood and because I like the SciSys designs and have none of them, and because the TK models appear to meet the test of strength, they're sort of iconic to me. I like the historical factor - SciSys was the first to get Kasparov endorsements. My copy of Batsford Chess Openings (one of my first intense chess books) features a shot of Garry with steepled fingers, looming over a SciSys model (which one?)
Also, the SciSys models appear to have been ascendant briefly, slightly stronger than the Fidelity and Novag models of the late 80s. I like the idea of pitting Excellence/Par Excellence against Super Connie against TK1.
D.
I've never seen a TK2 for sale online. The TK1 comes up occasionally. The threads show differing views of these two machines and how to tell them apart:
1. Hans (Sargon1972) tells me via direct message that the machines are truly different, with different programs.
2. In 2010, member Turboking suggested that the difference was Mhz:
3. Larry (who discusses this in multiple threads) refers to the difficulty of distinguishing between TK 1 and TK2, since the packaging appeared to be the same. The critical distinction he suggested was this:
In the same thread, Larry and IvenGO generally agreed that the added ROM chip was the only difference between TK1 and TK2. IvenGo later raised the Steve point: did TK2 contain Kaplan's D or D+? No one answered.
All this background leads me to be fairly comfortable in picking the TK1 as a solid candidate for strongest Kaplan machine in a plastic housing.
E.
Steve said this a while back, in a slightly different context (the Craig Barnes aspect):
I'm less sold on the bit about the housings. Prisma, Simultano, 2150 and 2150L and 2200X look very similar to me. Similar display screen. Similar button configuration. Ditto for GK 2000/2100 and variants. You can also spot similarities in the more modern versions of the housings. Everything looks like Saitek/Mephisto.
The 2250XL, despite its display screen, is similar, but so much bigger. That machine is *different.*
F.
I just realized something about the Turbo Kings - that compartment to the right...aaahhhh, that's where you store the pieces! Obvious, but I didn't realize from the pictures.
Storage of pieces. Now there's a topic. Which dedicateds solve this problem to your satisfaction? I'm sort of charmed by the solution offered in the Mephisto Explorer series, where you drop the pieces into space-age curved boxes on either side of the board...
Caring too much about this stuff regards,
- R.
A.
Here are my collecting biases:
1) I'll never own much wood. I will make exceptions for TASC and Revelation when I find the Maltese Falcon. I'm not interested in the great old Fidelities or Mephistos, though they're beautiful.
2) That cuts out modules. As a result, I try to limit myself to the best plastic by different programmers. For the big players (Lang, Morsch, de Koning, Schroder, Kittinger, Spracklen), those answers are pretty easy.
3) The Kaplan argument is not so clear, so I'm fascinated. For one thing, Kaplan machines appear to have widely different opening books. For another, the clone aspects haven't been fully explored.
A separate question is the amusing Radio Shack mystery. As Steve has said repeatedly, the literature on Radio Shack is virtually nonexistent. Wiki-Elo offers very little clarity on the relative strengths of Radio Shack machines.
B.
Steve framed the Kaplan strength question like this in a thread earlier this year. He was responding to a question about the Corona:
http://www.hiarcs.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=6584
Here's a very incomplete survey of ratings from Wiki:this is really the age old question of whether a particular Kaplan computer has the C,D,D+ or D++ version of his program
Radio Shack 2150 - 1750
Radio Shack 2150L - 1720
Saitek Prisma - 1735
Saitek Kasparov Blitz - 1735
Saitek Simultano (version C) - 1806
SciSys Turbo King I - 1806
SciSys Turbo King II - 1868
Saitek Corona -
1800 to 2000 (says Wiki Elo, depending on version)
(SSDF gives 1701, and labels Corona and Simultano as clones)
I think the Radio Shack versions are poorly understood. I don't quite believe those ratings. I put more stock in the SciSys ratings, because there are fewer machines to choose from.
C.
Because the Corona is so variable, because I prefer to plastic to wood and because I like the SciSys designs and have none of them, and because the TK models appear to meet the test of strength, they're sort of iconic to me. I like the historical factor - SciSys was the first to get Kasparov endorsements. My copy of Batsford Chess Openings (one of my first intense chess books) features a shot of Garry with steepled fingers, looming over a SciSys model (which one?)
Also, the SciSys models appear to have been ascendant briefly, slightly stronger than the Fidelity and Novag models of the late 80s. I like the idea of pitting Excellence/Par Excellence against Super Connie against TK1.
D.
I've never seen a TK2 for sale online. The TK1 comes up occasionally. The threads show differing views of these two machines and how to tell them apart:
1. Hans (Sargon1972) tells me via direct message that the machines are truly different, with different programs.
2. In 2010, member Turboking suggested that the difference was Mhz:
Source: hiarcs.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=3373Owning a TK 1 , I can tell the differences between 1 and 2
the first one is 5 mhz and the 'new' is 6 mhz
so the main difference is speed
and there must be another difference: the first one does not have the extra ROM (option) for finals (I bought it for mine decades ago) but the new one has got the ROM
so differences are speed and extra ROM for 1 and not for new one
thus , because of speed and extra ROM or not , TK 1 is weaker than TK 2
3. Larry (who discusses this in multiple threads) refers to the difficulty of distinguishing between TK 1 and TK2, since the packaging appeared to be the same. The critical distinction he suggested was this:
Source: hiarcs.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=4514The TK2 runs at a slightly higher clock speed,
but checking this means taking the back off. In standard form, the TK2
has an added ROM chip. This is easily checked by taking the ROM door
off the back. This chip has a data base giving perfect play for
K+p vs K+p and for K+2p vs K+p, but in the second case the pawns
must be blocked. Pretty good for it's day. Someone might have said
there is an indication on the box, but I can't remember how to check
that out.
In the same thread, Larry and IvenGO generally agreed that the added ROM chip was the only difference between TK1 and TK2. IvenGo later raised the Steve point: did TK2 contain Kaplan's D or D+? No one answered.
All this background leads me to be fairly comfortable in picking the TK1 as a solid candidate for strongest Kaplan machine in a plastic housing.
E.
Steve said this a while back, in a slightly different context (the Craig Barnes aspect):
I agree with the last two points. All Radio Shack info is sketchy, and it's clear that the Radio Shack machines are Kaplan-Barnes productions.i have the 2150, 2150L, Simultano, Prisma and 2250XL
they all do seem similar to me
by that i mean they are nothing like the housings in other ..undisputed(?) ..Morsch clones in other Radio Shack computers .. such as the Mega 2050X or Master Chess or 2200X
which are more in the style of the Saitek GK housings
(i have all of these as well)
actually now i am starting to doubt any of the "generally accepted " information regarding the engine authors for any Radio Shack computers ..given the total lack of literature on the subject
what we do know for sure is that "some" Kaplan-Craig engines were cloned into "some" Radio Shack computers
this ..from the Engine author himself
I'm less sold on the bit about the housings. Prisma, Simultano, 2150 and 2150L and 2200X look very similar to me. Similar display screen. Similar button configuration. Ditto for GK 2000/2100 and variants. You can also spot similarities in the more modern versions of the housings. Everything looks like Saitek/Mephisto.
The 2250XL, despite its display screen, is similar, but so much bigger. That machine is *different.*
F.
I just realized something about the Turbo Kings - that compartment to the right...aaahhhh, that's where you store the pieces! Obvious, but I didn't realize from the pictures.
Storage of pieces. Now there's a topic. Which dedicateds solve this problem to your satisfaction? I'm sort of charmed by the solution offered in the Mephisto Explorer series, where you drop the pieces into space-age curved boxes on either side of the board...
Caring too much about this stuff regards,
- R.
"You have, let us say, a promising politician, a rising artist that you wish to destroy. Dagger or bomb are archaic and unreliable - but teach him, inoculate him with chess."
– H.G. Wells
– H.G. Wells
-
Steve B
- Site Admin
- Posts: 10144
- Joined: Sun Jul 29, 2007 10:02 am
- Location: New York City USofA
- Contact:
Fascinating Post R
i'll opine on only one of the many issues raised by your post
about those few computers which have had very little or no literature written about them over the years
Radio Shack and in a more recent debate here... the Excalibur computers...
one thing i have observed
where a line of computers has little or no literature behind it
Speculation ,Innuendo and Chaos ...
Will Rush In To Fill The Void Regards
Steve
i'll opine on only one of the many issues raised by your post
about those few computers which have had very little or no literature written about them over the years
Radio Shack and in a more recent debate here... the Excalibur computers...
one thing i have observed
where a line of computers has little or no literature behind it
Speculation ,Innuendo and Chaos ...
Will Rush In To Fill The Void Regards
Steve
I have the Radio Shack Master Chess and it is hard to tell where it falls against some of the other Radio Shack units. Looking at some of the tests of the 2250XL, 2200X and others, I would say the RS Master Chess is real close to the 2250, and possibly stronger than any of the other RS units. In any case, it seems to be a relative bargain in the $50-$100 price range.
Bang for the buck regards,
Brian B
Bang for the buck regards,
Brian B
SciSys Turbo King II - 1868
This rating is for version D. With D+ were played many games by me and other computers: for sure its strength (at 5-6Mhz) is about 1950 ELO (also see ratings os Analyst / Maestro D+ 6Mhz modules)
For RS2250XL I would like to say that its playing style comes from GK2100 but less sharp and more balanced: probably, it could be a 8-bit version of MilanoPro's engine inside... And dont forget about production years: MP - 1996, 2250 - 1997; + also its relative to early Fritz versions: F1 - GK2000, F2 - GK2100, F3 - MP / 2250...
This rating is for version D. With D+ were played many games by me and other computers: for sure its strength (at 5-6Mhz) is about 1950 ELO (also see ratings os Analyst / Maestro D+ 6Mhz modules)
For RS2250XL I would like to say that its playing style comes from GK2100 but less sharp and more balanced: probably, it could be a 8-bit version of MilanoPro's engine inside... And dont forget about production years: MP - 1996, 2250 - 1997; + also its relative to early Fritz versions: F1 - GK2000, F2 - GK2100, F3 - MP / 2250...
OK, IvenGO sheds a little more light. But I'm wondering about something - apparently, the TK1 and TK2 are no different in the box and documentation.
So two things (or a combination) allow you to tell the difference:
1. Speed - 5 mhz or 6 mhz
2. The added endgame chip
The point about speed reminded me of something Steve suggested a couple of years back, when I was trying to figure out which version of Excellence I owned: 3 mhz, 4 mhz or 5 mhz.
Steve's simple test was measuring the time it took the machine to reach 6 ply on a non-book move (a3) while set at infinite level. Shorter time = faster processor.
Wouldn't this also work for TK1 and TK2 as a measure?
- R.
So two things (or a combination) allow you to tell the difference:
1. Speed - 5 mhz or 6 mhz
2. The added endgame chip
The point about speed reminded me of something Steve suggested a couple of years back, when I was trying to figure out which version of Excellence I owned: 3 mhz, 4 mhz or 5 mhz.
Steve's simple test was measuring the time it took the machine to reach 6 ply on a non-book move (a3) while set at infinite level. Shorter time = faster processor.
Wouldn't this also work for TK1 and TK2 as a measure?
- R.
"You have, let us say, a promising politician, a rising artist that you wish to destroy. Dagger or bomb are archaic and unreliable - but teach him, inoculate him with chess."
– H.G. Wells
– H.G. Wells
-
Sargon1972
- Member
- Posts: 348
- Joined: Sun Jul 14, 2013 9:30 am
- Location: Dussen
Hello ,
Well maybe i can bring more light
The TK I have theB and C program inside and can have also the EGR I and 5mhz
EGR I runs from verison A till C program
TK II have the C and D and D+program(the D and D+ are not so large made) inside and can have also the EGR II also 5mhz ,the Corona u have 5mhz and 6mhz versions ,also the Modules u can have different mhz versions but the early release of the Corona u can have a B version!
EGR II runs from D,till D++ program
more info here :
http://www.schachcomputer.info/forum/f2 ... -4217.html
Also the book is different the TK I play,s against e4-e5 ore c5 ,the TK II plays almost always c6 ore c5
Also it is very unclear that the Module B ore C and so on have the exact programs as in the TK I ore II and Corona ,so B-C-D version
The D+ upgrade came much later ,but not build in many chess computers ,the D++ who only can run in the Modules did never came out official by SciSys/Saitek
Maestro A: M6A_14B, M6A_29B
Maestro B-C: M6C_B721, M6C_P807.C
Maestro D: 326_Ma3, Book613, BookA14
Maestro/Analyst D+: B6M_614.BIB, M6M_625
D_EGR2.707
Maestro/Analyst D++: B6M_614.BIB, D_PP.LEO,
D_EGR2.707
Treu is that u can not see on the box if it is a TK I ore II
Only when u open the back where u see the eproms
For both u could add the endgame Rom when u buy it .
The Radioschack have Kaplan and Morsch programs .but still doubtful what is what ,clones? i think yes
Kr,Hans
Well maybe i can bring more light
The TK I have theB and C program inside and can have also the EGR I and 5mhz
EGR I runs from verison A till C program
TK II have the C and D and D+program(the D and D+ are not so large made) inside and can have also the EGR II also 5mhz ,the Corona u have 5mhz and 6mhz versions ,also the Modules u can have different mhz versions but the early release of the Corona u can have a B version!
EGR II runs from D,till D++ program
more info here :
http://www.schachcomputer.info/forum/f2 ... -4217.html
Also the book is different the TK I play,s against e4-e5 ore c5 ,the TK II plays almost always c6 ore c5
Also it is very unclear that the Module B ore C and so on have the exact programs as in the TK I ore II and Corona ,so B-C-D version
The D+ upgrade came much later ,but not build in many chess computers ,the D++ who only can run in the Modules did never came out official by SciSys/Saitek
Maestro A: M6A_14B, M6A_29B
Maestro B-C: M6C_B721, M6C_P807.C
Maestro D: 326_Ma3, Book613, BookA14
Maestro/Analyst D+: B6M_614.BIB, M6M_625
D_EGR2.707
Maestro/Analyst D++: B6M_614.BIB, D_PP.LEO,
D_EGR2.707
Treu is that u can not see on the box if it is a TK I ore II
Only when u open the back where u see the eproms
For both u could add the endgame Rom when u buy it .
The Radioschack have Kaplan and Morsch programs .but still doubtful what is what ,clones? i think yes
Kr,Hans
Hello
I am from Netherlands and many years involved with computerchess
It,s a way of life i suppose :p
Kr,Hans
I am from Netherlands and many years involved with computerchess
It,s a way of life i suppose :p
Kr,Hans
Hey - did anyone notice the interesting questions posed by Brian B a bit earlier in this thread?
The RS Master manual includes standard Mephisto/Saitek options: four versions of opening book, ability to turn ponder off. No extras. The machine is absent from Wiki-Elo.
Who can tell us about this machine? Where the hell is Nick?
- R.
I don't own the RS Master (1998). In pictures, judging solely by housing, it looks like a derivative of Saitek Challenger, which I regard as a dead lift from GK 2100.I have the Radio Shack Master Chess and it is hard to tell where it falls against some of the other Radio Shack units. Looking at some of the tests of the 2250XL, 2200X and others, I would say the RS Master Chess is real close to the 2250, and possibly stronger than any of the other RS units. In any case, it seems to be a relative bargain in the $50-$100 price range.
Bang for the buck regards,
Brian B
The RS Master manual includes standard Mephisto/Saitek options: four versions of opening book, ability to turn ponder off. No extras. The machine is absent from Wiki-Elo.
Who can tell us about this machine? Where the hell is Nick?
- R.
"You have, let us say, a promising politician, a rising artist that you wish to destroy. Dagger or bomb are archaic and unreliable - but teach him, inoculate him with chess."
– H.G. Wells
– H.G. Wells