Questions on Novag Obsidian and some strange behavior

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SirDave
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Post by SirDave »

Reinfeld wrote:
...Really enlightening from SirDave - I didn't know this was how the labor worked, and it's commendable. Now I want to go find a program he wrote:

...I like probing the thing manually, to see how deep it goes into a line, how far the SirDaves in the world have gone, what their sources are, and play the game from there.

- R.
Much as I would like to take the credit (:)), I think you mean Jon (Monsieur Plastique). I particularly like his posts because he's the only one I know that has actually programmed a chess engine, openings and all. so his perspective has a lot of credibility.
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Re: Questions on Novag Obsidian and some strange behavior

Post by SirDave »

Steve B wrote:
SirDave wrote:
I also have little interest in a board that has little or no openings diversity.
JMark wrote:
Monsieur Plastique wrote:...That said, it is good to see some decent experiments into the Obsidian book. The book does not seem to be (quite) as fatally flawed as I had thought
True and I like what I feel is an important point that Steve brought up, that each machine have their own little nuances. Realizing that truth I have become less critical and enjoy each different machine for what it is. The computers 'character' is the combination of its strengths and flaws.
Exactly

the nuances of the different models from all of the different companies is what makes collecting these babies interesting
god for bid each model was exactly the same in terms of programming and features

this model has a book that sucks while that model plays a great endgame
one model has a memory save feature while another has printer capability
I guess if some folks are only interested in owning a small handful of computers then these nuances matter but I think with the prices these things sell for these days we can all live with the weakness/strengths of the different models..in fact we should celebrate these differences

Vive La Différence Regards
Steve
I guess that's what separates the true collector from the category I am in (a player who collects to play). Over the last few years I have developed a pretty nice collection of many portables and a number of well-reviewed boards (only wood -using the term loosely- being the Citrine).

But I have overdone it a bit, so I'm going to be unloading a few that don't meet my standards ie. listed features that don't work, little or no openings diversity or designs I've come to dislike.

Full Disclosure Regards,
Dave
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Steve B
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Re: Questions on Novag Obsidian and some strange behavior

Post by Steve B »

SirDave wrote:
I guess that's what separates the true collector from the category I am in (a player who collects to play).
Actually i would describe myself as a collector and a player
so you could say i collect AND play
the downside of this is that very few of my computers are in mint pristine condition which would be a drawback if i ever intended to sell

Best Of Both Worlds Regards
Steve
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Post by Reinfeld »

Shoooot - SirDave is right. I mistakenly attributed MonsieurPlastique's quotes. Sorry, MP! I should say I want to find a program written by MP.

Collecting correcting regards,

- R.
"You have, let us say, a promising politician, a rising artist that you wish to destroy. Dagger or bomb are archaic and unreliable - but teach him, inoculate him with chess."
– H.G. Wells
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fourthirty
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Re: Questions on Novag Obsidian and some strange behavior

Post by fourthirty »

Cyberchess wrote:Thanks for posting your results, Greg. Personally, I would find the lack of opening variety far more disconcerting than the lack of the [Next Best] function.
You're welcome John. Yes, I also agree. I'm somewhat perplexed by the removal of that feature. I wonder Novag removed that functionality on later units?
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Monsieur Plastique
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Post by Monsieur Plastique »

SirDave wrote:Much as I would like to take the credit (:)), I think you mean Jon (Monsieur Plastique). I know that has actually programmed a chess engine, openings and all.
As much as I would love to have done all of those things, it's not quite that all-encompassing :D Yes to being a programmer in my previous paid work (but in the financial reporting and data mining disciplines, not chess sadly), yes to having done the openings book (from scratch) for the Nintendo effort I mentioned, yes to redesigning and overhauling the GUI for an engine, tweaking it and optimising it for the platform and hardware, but so far as the raw chess engine itself is concerned, it was still basically Fruit (2.1 from memory), for which I obviously cannot take any credit at all (the author was obviously given full credit for the engine itself). But I (and a professional programmer) did spent several months optimising the code we had to get the best performance out of it on the low-powered platform (but this did not actually change the true nature of the program in terms of the way it actually played chess itself).

Just to clarify what the project was all about, some years ago I and a professional programmer who was a Nintendo hobbyist took a version of Fruit that had previously been made to work on the Nintendo DSI platform and we ran with it so to speak. There were a huge number of bugs (I seem to remember I created a "bugs worksheet" document that ran to about 37 pages) that took many weeks to go through before I could settle on the task of then actually improving upon what we had (in terms of features, playing levels, visuals, information provided in the GUI, overall functionality, etc, etc). Just this was a huge amount of work that gave me whole new respect for the work needed to create these dedicated machines from scratch in years gone by - it put the minor bugs and quibbles we have with our dedicated machines well into perspective. Towards the tail end of the project, that was when I did the openings book which in turn was a massive (though quite exciting for me) undertaking.

So far as the viability of the project was concerned, there was also this grey area that revolved around the physical cartridges needed to run the program and Nintendo in turn had these licensing agreements needed to run any commercial software on their hardware (so aimed at companies doing it for profit as opposed to us doing it as a hobby). These agreements nonetheless in turn had pretty strict rules as to what could or could not be done. As an example, a programmer working on the Battle vs. Chess project told me that Nintendo required something like a 10 second "response time" at worst. What this meant is that if a user issues any command to the console in any way shape or form that requires some sort of "response" back from the console, the elapsed time before such a response occurred could not exceed 10 seconds. Not great for creating a strong chess program obviously, and one of the reasons why all commercial chess programs on the Nintendo platforms are weak in absolute terms (save for the Fritz which I rated at around 1909 after 100 games based on the current SSDF rating list).

Anyway, at the time you could probably ask 10 people whether doing amateur programs (as opposed to commercial) for Nintendo consoles was fully legal or not and you'd get 10 different answers. Same with the cartridges. These cartridges were not officially approved by Nintendo, since although they were being used for a completely innocuous purposes in our project, they could also be used to illegally distribute and copy (otherwise licensed) commercial software. The outcome was that although we were not doing anything remotely morally wrong I decided to take the safe route and cancel the project, partly on account of the (very) off-chance that we were treading on corporate toes, even though we were being exceptionally careful to ensure the only thing our program would do would be to benefit Nintendo and increase hardware sales and finally get a decent chess program - with as few bugs and as many features as possible - onto the platform. But the fact remained that the hardware we needed to use was also being used by unscrupulous parties illegally and I did not want any perception whatsoever of guilt by association (not that we had any association as such apart from having no choice but to use the same types of cartridge that they used).

The final nail in the coffin was that despite our very best efforts, we could not eradicate all of the bugs. All that were left were not really any worse than you'd probably find in even the best dedicated machines of the past (so very rare and you would have to really go searching for them), but there was another issue where the program would fall over and we simply could not get to the bottom of it. On my test machine it was difficult to reproduce but I could nonetheless but only seemingly randomly. On other machines it would happen far more frequently. After spending a few weeks just on that particular issue, I did not feel confident enough that it had been resolved, since it appeared to have more to do with the choice of cartridge, the hardware interface and type of machine than the software itself (so out of my control). This was likely another reason that Nintendo did not like these third party "blank" cartridges - some did seem to work better than others and at best the performance never seemed to be consistent from one to the other. This would not have reflected well on the console hardware itself, since so long as you use hardware and software that Nintendo licenses, you are in for a fairly trouble free, bug free (in relative terms) experience. Just not any good for strong chess though which has peculiar and rather pedantic requirements compared to your average portable console game.

I have been asked many times for copies of the program but will never provide them for the reasons stated above. I deliberately destroyed all my workings and notes at the conclusion of the project in any case. The only thing I really regret doing was not keeping my opening book, since that was nothing to do with Nintendo and it was a really great book if you needed a very compact one that could fit in a very limited memory space and gave you fantastic variety and without any bugs in it.

All said and done though, it was a very valuable experience and it gave me even more respect for the pros than I had previously (which was already considerable). On the other hand, it was also a source of frustration, because I see instances where commercial programs (in both dedicated machines and as engines) could be improved with minimal changes - sometimes dramatically. This is especially the case where a clear bug in the program code causes an occasional weak (or even terrible move) and just eradicating that one bug might improve the playing strength 50 points or more! Then there are time usage algorithms that could also increase playing strength considerably, if only more time had been spent in play testing and tweaking. And then my favourite - opening books - they can really make or break the attractiveness of an otherwise excellent machine. Sadly the otherwise excellent Obsidian being a good case in point. The most ironic thing that came out of all of this is that the best openings book I have ever come across in any actual piece of portable hardware (this side of a Sapphire / Sapphire II / Star Sapphire) was the one in Fritz for the Nintendo! If anything, it is the best book of all!!
Chess is like painting the Mona Lisa whilst walking through a minefield.
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Steve B
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Post by Steve B »

Actually we do have two member's here who did write full chess program's from scratch
fairly strong programs also


SJE(Steve Edwards)
his program..Symbolic
rated around 2300 ish(IIRC)


and of course there is also

Mark Uniacke Regards
Steve
:P
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fourthirty
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Re: Questions on Novag Obsidian and some strange behavior

Post by fourthirty »

fourthirty wrote:
Steve B wrote:Interesting
my manual is coded...85-661-000
manual copyright-2002
perhaps the Serial number can provide a clue...
133883
My manual is coded 85-661-004
manual copyright-2002
Serial number 133883
Reviewing this old thread I noticed an error in the Serial Number that I reported (it was a copy and paste error from Steve's previous post). To set the record straight, my Original Obsidian's information is:

My manual is coded 85-661-004 (which includes the addendum 86-661-003 regarding the Obsidian not having the NEXT BEST function)
manual copyright-2002
Date Code = 07W43 (on bottom of Obsidian not the box)
Serial number 202541

Obsidian #2 information (s/n 212636 date 08W38) will be posted in Kat's new thread...

Greg
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Post by Larry »

Just now on looking on the base of my Obsidian, I noticed I could not
find any date of manufacture. I did notice, however, a number so small
I had to squint, even with my reading glasses on. It's written at 90 degrees
to the rest of the writing, so I had to turn the machine sideways to read it.
Yours will have it too, but you will have to squint.
The tiny number on mine is 83-661-000
My Owners manual number:85-661-000
Mine came also with a
separate owners manual in
what appears to be Spanish: 85-661-001
My Obsidian has the Next Best function working, so I'm guessing
it's a later one. Serial # 143887.
I'm actually not a fan of the Obsidian, but the pieces are really nice,
so I tend to use them even when I'm playing one of my other
non-reed switch units.
L
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Monsieur Plastique
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Post by Monsieur Plastique »

Hi Larry,

Just curious. Did you get yours brand new from CDS and if so how long ago? I'm starting to think that anything made after mid 2010 should be "OK".
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Post by Larry »

Monsieur Plastique wrote:Hi Larry,

Just curious. Did you get yours brand new from CDS and if so how long ago? I'm starting to think that anything made after mid 2010 should be "OK".
Hi Jon, No, I did'nt buy it from CDS, but the original owner may have.
It actually came down from Townsville. Regarding production year, these
things date back to the turn of the century:
http://www.schach-computer.info/wiki/in ... g_Obsidian
I bought mine about six years back.
Jon, check your private messages.
take care...
Larry
trontreez

Post by trontreez »

MYSTERY SOLVED! OR NEVER QUITE WAS ?

Yes your quite right! There were indeed two versions of the Novag Obsidian. It's been well known for some time now.

The initial release featured the functionality of the next best key, pre-programmed positions/games and the more varied opening book. It was running on older inferior hardware running @ 2x16Mhz.

The second release featured an upgraded program with a "tighter" opening book on a H8-chip @ 20Mhz. The second release being much stronger (by 50-100 elo) of course!

This makes the weaker, albeit rarer, version somewhat more desirable than the stronger secondary release :roll:

mrcdoc wrote:Yes, I confirm. It exists minimally 2 different models on the hardware side:
- one with a H8/3214 microprocessor and a clock at 2x16MHz;
- and a second with a H8/3614 and a clock at 20MHz.

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Novag Obsidian H8/3214 chip

Post by Chessfan »

I've got Novag H8/3214 chip . Mine has no opening tutor and no games installed and no endgames or middle games . Please can the two version owners verify this please
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