Krypton Chess Computers

[spacious_mind]

I have done some reading through my Computer Schach und Spiele magazines, and there are some interesting insights to some of the lesser known manufacturers. Here are some insights that I have translated into English.

Part 1 - Apr/May issue 1994

In this issue the unknown reporter who visited the Nuernberger Toys and Games Exhibition writes as follows:

“Two years ago the Hong company National Electronics announced the takeover of the liquidated company Newcrest/CXG, and that they want to be soon number 1 in the world for chess computers. Nothing happened, and National became number 0 instead. German’s general importer Siwek who distributes toys such as teddy bears etc., suddenly had no chess computers to sell. However this year a new company named Krypton was launched (owner: David Levy), which has a range of low cost computers which it can supply. These are the chess computers that are built in the people republic of China. An overview with prices:

Travel Computers:
Meteor (95.00)
Comet ( 175.00)

Table Top Computers:

Pioneer (98.00)
Jupiter (135.00)
Challenge (215.00)

The Krypton computers have 70 to 100 levels and quite small opening libraries. Only the Challenge comes with board LED’s, the rest communicate their moves through their respective LCD displays. They all have press sensory boards. The strength according to the manufacturer lies between 1400 and 1950, which of course should be acknowledged with necessary skepticism. The preproduction models shown on the Siwek Stand gave you a feeling of “not yet ready for launch”.

Part 2 to follow... regards

[spacious_mind]

Part 2 - Apr/May issue 1995

In this issue the unknown reporter who visited the Nuernberger Toys and Games Exhibition writes as follows:

In last year’s exhibition the Krypton computers were presented by Siwek. This year Siwek presents Krypton once again. It is clear however that the distribution in Germany in the past year was made through only one channel namely through Toys distributor Otto Simon, who in turn will distribute the chess computers to Toy and Games chains throughout Germany.

Behind Krypton there are the old known names of David Levy and Eric White (previously from White & Allcock, later CXG/Sphinx), who is now based in Hong Kong and trades under his Company name Timorite. Eric White personally presented his products at the Siwek Stand. Eric White seemed very pleased with his company’s 1994 sales performance and results that showed a turnover increase of 30% and he expects another 20% growth in 1995. Eric White however did not want to quote any absolute numbers. His goal is to concentrate worldwide on the low end computer segment, for example chess computers sold at a price that are suitable for gifts and at the same time offer a higher performance for less money.

The chess computer development is carried out in Hong Kong. David Levy is responsible for the programs. The production is made in a location in China, near Hong Kong. The Brand Name (Krypton) was born at the Nuerenberger Exhibition 2 years ago.

Announced one year ago and also currently available are 5 computers with a relatively conventional but quite pleasing design. Two programs are hidden inside these computers:

Meteor – Peg Sensory Board, 4 Kbyte 8 Bit program running at 4 MHz (DM 79.00) – 72 Levels, Opening Book 250 Half Moves.

Pioneer and Jupiter – Sensory table top computers but with the same hardware configuration as Meteor (DM 129.00)

Comet – Travel computer, same design as Meteor but runs on a 10 MHz 32 Kbyte 8 Bit RISC-Style processor with opening library of 3,000 half moves. According to Manufacturer it’s strength is 1900 ELO (2100 USCF) and has 100 levels of play.

Challenge – Table Top computer with sensory board but with same program and hardware as Comet


Currently Krypton is working on changing their product range and are investing their efforts in improving the designs of their computers. Besides selling under the Krypton Brand, these computers will also be available under the brand names of Systema and Excalibur.

Planned is a new travel computer named Chess Express for DM 79.00 whose design reminds you of a crossover of Saitek and Novag computers on whose Photo the name Excalibur is shown. An ELO value of 1350 is promised. Features are very similar to Meteor, although the program is new with several Fun Levels for beginners. You have the impression that White has looked closely at Winkler’s computers.

The same program will also be available in a sensory table top named Odyssey II for DM 119.00 in a housing which is rounded on one side and shown under the brand Systema. This computer also has an evaluation function which will provide the player after a few games an estimate of their playing strength. By turning the housing around by 90 degrees you get the Orion Plus whose program however remains exactly the same. The price of the Orion Plus is also exactly the same but it does include a checkers program.

Finally you have the Regency, which looks almost the same as the Odyssey II, but will be the follower of Challenge. It has the features of Challenge but expanded to include a player rating system and claimed to have a rating of 2000 ELO – not bad for a price of DM 179.00.

Simon has announced availability in August together with two additional new computers named Gemini Plus and Merlin, both priced at DM 79.00. Details for the Gemini Plus and Merlin are currently not available. Based on this price however it can be assumed that these will be new repackaged variations of their older low end computers.

Part 3 to follow soon….. regards

[spacious_mind]

Part 3 - Apr/May issue 1996

In this issue the Hans-Peter Ketterling writes about his experience at the Nuerenberger Toys and Games Exhibition. This seems to be first year that Hans-Peter Ketterling is listed on the CSS reporting staff.

The Brand Sphinx from the manufacturer National Telecommunications (CXG) in Hong Kong it now represented by the company Tasco who are active in Holland and Belguim. The old CXG distributor Siwek has now completely given up their interest and representation in the distribution of chess computers. Tasco however in the last year sold 20,000 chess computers in Holland and 10,000 in Belgium and now also sells to Germany with very customer friendly pricing. The assortment is mainly well known and comprises of the following computers: Granada, Sierra, Galaxy, Legend, Concerto, Spirit, Alicante, Madrid, Accolade, Seville, Super Crown, Chess Voyager, Portachess 2 and Star Chess. Also new models are promised namely Comet (Nick – there must be 2 Comet versions – CXG Comet & Krypton Comet), whose program will correspond to Madrid (Nick – this is wrong – CXG Comet corresponds closely to the Super Crown/Advanced Star Chess program) and offers 1350 ELO, suitable for beginners. Also Mars will be available with only 1150 ELO with 16 levels, sensory board and battery operated. Pricing is currently not available.

The double brand Krypton/Systema was again represented through none else then the old acquaintance Eric White, whose past casualness has changed now grown into intensive activity. For the past year in Germany, these computers have been marketed by Otto Simon. These computers are produced in China’s Shenzen province near Hong Kong where as before the headquarters of Timorite Ltd are situated. White quoted 1995 as a very good year with his business doubling in size and now being able to manufacture in his own manufacturing plant (Nick – China’s Shenzen province manufacturing plant must belong to Eric White).

The currently available delivery program from Simon contains a whole range of computers, namely travel computers Meteor, Chess Express, Comet and Gemini Plus, as well as table top computers, Pioneer, Orion Plus, Jupiter, Regency and Challenge. White also introduced the key pad computer 1640 Microchess and table top computer Alpha which has already been available for sale in our merchant stores for a while, and Odyssey II. Besides chess computers, Backgammon computers are now offered as well.

In addition to this there are a few new releases in preparation. Most interesting is Mirage, which can move it’s pieces. To achieve this, a magnet will be used below the chess board, as previously done and developed for the first time with Milton (Milton Bradley 1983) and continued with Phantom (Fidelity 1989 and Hegener + Glaser 1991) of Chesster Phantom (Fidelity 1881). Mirage will be apparently a lot smaller than Phantom and have a respectable playing strength of 2050 ELO. Planned for the 4th quarter, it is expected to achieve good success in the North American market, however it will not be available here (Nick – meaning not available in Europe).

Legend III will have a similar strength, but sold as a normal table top, whereas Ivan the Terrible will in addition have voice. As you can see the technical gimmicks from the beginning of the chess computer times have not lost their appeal.

Part 4 to follow soon - regards

[spacious_mind]

Part 4 - Apr/May issue 1997

In this issue the Hans-Peter Ketterling writes about his experience at the Nuernberger Toys and Games Exhibition in 1997.

"Tasco continues to distribute the Sphinx computers from CXG (National Telecommunicaton) from Hong Kong, but unfortunately only in the Benelux countries were annually 15,000 of these computers are sold. However German merchants can receive these directly from Tasco. It is however doubtful that German merchants are taking much advantage of this and therefore you will continue to see only a few of these in German stores.

From Tasco’s product palette, the following table top computers continue to be available with sensory board: Seville (DM 75.00), Madrid (DM 89.00), Comet (DM 119.00), Sierra (DM129.00), Legend (DM 199.00) and Concerto (DM 199.00). Sensory peg board travel computers: Chess Voyager (DM 69.00). Announced with availability in March was the new computer Mars, which was specifically developed for children and utilized the Madrid chess program. The low cost computers in this range have very simple programs and are very low in playing strength, suitable only for beginners and amateur players. However Legend and Concerto offer interesting programs (32 Kbyte, 100 levels of play, 3,000 half moves openings library) and play strength over 1700 ELO points.

Mirage is a new chess computer that Eric White had already announced a year ago, which belongs to the few computers that moves the chess pieces by itself. It has been available in the USA since December of last year, sold through the chain Sears for $499.00. White stated that he is reluctant to throw this new computer with larger quantities into the Market, because with computers of this kind with movable parts a test period is necessary to ensure that there are no technical problems, he has therefore sold the tools for this. Therefore Mirage will now be sold by Excalibur Electronics but supposedly produced by National Telecommunications in Hong Kong. (Nick – my Mirage states “Made in China” hence more likely made in the Shenzen Province factory).

If Mirage is really so susceptible to problems as feared by White, is not yet known. I have just bought one from the USA and it was defect. The computer is a little smaller than the 1983 from Milton Bradley, the 1989 Fidelity with the much improved chess program and the 1991 Phantom from Hegener + Glaser. The play surface has a 23 x 23 cm press sensory board. The computer has 110 levels (Nick – wrong, must be typo it has 100 levels), a learn mode, chess clocks and an LCD-Display. It’s play strength is rated at 1900 ELO points per manufacturer. If and when this computers becomes available in Germany was not elicited.

Excalibur offers additional computers in the USA, namely the talking Ivan the Terrible for $149.00 with its sensory board, 100 levels of play and LCD display. It also has additional sound effects for example when a Knight is moved you hear the sound of hooves. For the same price you can also get the Legend III, which also has a sensory board and LCD display and it is supposed to be stronger than Legend which rates at 1750 ELO points. For travel Avenger is offered with the Legend III program, also for $149.00. All 3 computers can be run with power supply or batteries.

Excalibur has a complete range of additional computers namely table tops: Alpha 2 in 1, King Master 2 in 1, Explorer, Explorer de Luxe, Stiletto III and Sabre II. Travel computers: Travel King Master 2 in 1, Chess Express, Cutlass and Micro Chess. All 2 in 1 computers play checkers in addition to chess. The designs and names disclose the true origin of these computers. They all come from the same place as the CXG computers."

IN SUMMARY

I think if you go through the evolution of these Nuerenberger Exhibition reports, it is pretty clear to me that chess programs of Mirage = Igor and Legend III come from Krypton (Legend III possibly = Ivan the Terrible = Avenger).

So who programmed and designed for Krypton?

1) It is clear that David Levy as director and his programming team worked on developing the computers.
2) We know that the 100 level computers are Horvath's
3) We know that under CXG you also have Danielsen as programmer.
4) We know that Excalibur received products from Krypton and CXG.
5) Again we see absolutely zero mention of Nelson in any of this.

But you can all draw your own conclusions and interpretations. But bear in mind that all of the above is a factual representation of persons at CSS visiting the Exhibition stands and interviewing the people there. In this case primarily Eric White (the horse's mouth).

Best regards

[mclane]

If YOU claiming Igor / grandmaster is not from Ron Nelson,
You must come with an alternative programmer.

And it cannot be danielsen. His 16 k program as in advanced star chess is not strong enough. It cannot be horvath, because we have his programs in legend and regency and avenger and it plays different, very passive like the PC version of pandix -dos did.

Igor/grandmaster play a very strange chess.
Come with a programmer name, and we will ask him, if he did it.

I could not imagine any programmer creating the engine for it.
Ask levy. Or whoever knows.

IMO this strange chess reminds me on the Ron Nelson machines. Maybe somebody transferred the z80 program into h8 platform. That would explain the lack of positional evaluation and the strange computerchess of the early eighties. On the other hand the engine seems to come much deeper then onto the z80 platform, which is clear due to the h8 beeing superior.

[spacious_mind]

If YOU claiming Igor / grandmaster is not from Ron Nelson,
You must come with an alternative programmer.

And it cannot be danielsen. His 16 k program as in advanced star chess is not strong enough. It cannot be horvath, because we have his programs in legend and regency and avenger and it plays different, very passive like the PC version of pandix -dos did.

Igor/grandmaster play a very strange chess.
Come with a programmer name, and we will ask him, if he did it.

I could not imagine any programmer creating the engine for it.
Ask levy. Or whoever knows.

IMO this strange chess reminds me on the Ron Nelson machines. Maybe somebody transferred the z80 program into h8 platform. That would explain the lack of positional evaluation and the strange computerchess of the early eighties. On the other hand the engine seems to come much deeper then onto the z80 platform, which is clear due to the h8 beeing superior.

Hi Thorsten,

It is always fun to debate with you. However, regarding the burden of proof you seem to have it somehow completely ass backwards. You just read a report from your own Chess Bible. Are you disputing what is written there? Are you saying that the reports are wrong? Are you doubting the accuracy of the CSS reports or the persons who wrote them?

Just like your refutation that 100 levels set up exactly the same, Chess instead of Hello, Beginner teaching mode, same hardware, same ram and rom, same playing strength etc are all coincidence I guess per your opinion (Don't start quoting 12 MHz and 10 MHz I know who has what.)

Show me a piece of evidence instead of who is the author to prove whatever you believe in before you change documented history. I don't have to prove a thing, you do.

Best regards

ps.. I have thrown Danielsen in there because there are other Excalibur computers not least Alexandra which need to be dug into further. I am not quoting Danielsen for anything yet other than there is a possibility the also exists in Excalibur computers. Certainly Excalibur's Glass Chess with it's play styles has a close resemblance to a Danielsen for starters.

[mclane]

The level Stuff and all The other coincidences come IMO from the duty-book.

Take all the cars on the market.
Most of them have 4 wheels, front lights, brakes, a steering wheel, 2 front seats, and and and. Because they were made by one company ?

I guess when you speak about the bible, you maybe refer to css.
You maybe don't know that I was a rebel in the css team and never "believed"
In the "bible". It's clear that especially in the last years of dedicated chess computers they rehashed the same programs/engines into several cheap houses. And it's also clear that David levy used his connections to coordinate many of those clones.

You have dozens of machines with the same Kittinger engine, you have dozens of machines with the same morsch engines.

[spacious_mind]

Igor/grandmaster play a very strange chess.
Come with a programmer name, and we will ask him, if he did it.

Hi Thorsten,

Igor at level 22 and Mirage at level 23 play exactly these same chess. From a timeline perspective as written in the reports Mirage stems from Eric White's and David Levy's company.

So if you believe someone else programmed Mirage (you are already stating that Avenger is Horvath's) then who would have done this for Krypton?

You have two choices here.

1) It is someone who they are already know and are engaged with.
a) Levy and Team
b) Horvath
c) Danielsen

2) They asked some other well known programmer to program the computer.
a) Morsch - maybe he has H8 experience, but unlikely because his programs would be stronger than Mirage.
b) Lang - Unlikely
c) Schroeder - Unlikely with Schroeder being so accessible we would have known by now. Besides his programs are too strong.
d) King - Not possible his programs are too strong.
e) Kittinger - maybe but probably also unlikely
f) Nelson - unlikely has not programmed in 15 years and not a strong programmer.
g) Barnes - unlikely not a strong programmer and if he took a Morsch then the program would be too strong.
h) Spracklen - unlikely, they retired. Besides if they did then this would have been a winner for them and appropriately advertised. Therefore totally unlikely.
I) Kaplan - unlikely

So you are back to the first list.

Best regards

[spacious_mind]

The level Stuff and all The other coincidences come IMO from the duty-book.
Take all the cars on the market.
Most of them have 4 wheels, front lights, brakes, a steering wheel, 2 front seats, and and and. Because they were made by one company ?

Right, glad you mentioned cars, I know them well. It costs 2+ Billion dollars to launch a new car. Hence they keep the same models and every model year they change and add features for their September new year releases. Still costs hundreds of millions but is much cheaper than the billions in developing a totally new car.

I guess when you speak about the bible, you maybe refer to css.
You maybe don't know that I was a rebel in the css team and never "believed"

I am glad you are a skeptic.

In the "bible". It's clear that especially in the last years of dedicated chess computers they rehashed the same programs/engines into several cheap houses. And it's also clear that David levy used his connections to coordinate many of those clones.

I agree with you, therefore don't you think it is more likely they asked who they knew already to change their programs and not make them look the same all the time? New model year instead of new car. This btw would lead you back to Horvath would it not? Turn a few levers and you have something that plays different but fundamentally continues to be at the same strength.

Best regards

[Reinfeld]

Take all the cars on the market.
Most of them have 4 wheels, front lights, brakes, a steering wheel, 2 front seats, and and and. Because they were made by one company ?

This is a cheap little argument. It aggressively misstates the underlying effort to reach a greater level of clarity. Referring to the old printed reports is not definitive - but it certainly adds to the inventory of sourced evidence, believe it or not. Examining playing styles and running tests to measure similarities is another source of evidence, derived directly from the behavior of the machines. Differences among said machines become discernible as the inventory grows.

In addition to owning chess computers, I also own/have owned cars. I've researched them in order to select the model suited to my needs. I found significant differences that go beyond wheels, lights and brakes. I found 4-cylinder engines in certain models, with added turbo-charged elements. I found six-cylinder engines in similar models, which were of a different make and lower quality.

- R.

[mclane]

I refer to what we know.
We can judge the engines by their playing,
And the programs in Igor/grandmaster and in other minor Excalibur machines play ugly chess while the horvath programs play defensive and positional chess.

Nevertheless Igor / grandmaster (and clones of this engine without pb or with less mhz) play tactical chess.

It's not horvath because we KNOW how his engines play, and they play different.

It's not danielsen because his engine plays to weak. His biggest engine was 16 kb.

It's imo no other engine I know. No other programmer I know.

But we have no clue how Ron nelsons z80 program plays on h8 hardware.

[spacious_mind]

I had posted some games here:

http://hiarcs.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=6835&start=0

Where CC Sensory Voice played at 3 minutes per move which is about the equivalent of H8. You can add rocket boosters as far as I am concerned to the program, it plays totally differently and lacks basic chess skills when compared to what we are comparing with Excalibur.

You can't turn a donkey into a race horse.

Best regards

ps. did I mention that you are talking with two sides of your mouth? I think maybe I did not before. You quote Danielsen with 6301Y a current in the house programmer is impossible. But Nelson with a 15 year old program on Z80 (ancient technology) was a certainty? Your arguments are not very sound you know. Besides ignoring the most likely option of a Horvath tune up by Horvath and 2nd most likely option a Horvath Tune up by Levy and Team.

[mclane]

I had posted some games here:

http://hiarcs.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=6835&start=0

Where CC Sensory Voice played at 3 minutes per move which is about the equivalent of H8. You can add rocket boosters as far as I am concerned to the program, it plays totally differently and lacks basic chess skills when compared to what we are comparing with Excalibur.

You can't turn a donkey into a race horse.

Best regards

ps. did I mention that you are talking with two sides of your mouth? I think maybe I did not before. You quote Danielsen with 6301Y a current in the house programmer is impossible. But Nelson with a 15 year old program on Z80 (ancient technology) was a certainty? Your arguments are not very sound you know. Besides ignoring the most likely option of a Horvath tune up by Horvath and 2nd most likely option a Horvath Tune up by Levy and Team.

Believe me horvath engines play very defensive and positional. It has to do with the programmer. He is a gentleman and would not use brute force.


Nelson had this program into his desk. Maybe some body took the printout of it and transferred it onto faster hardware.
That would explain the lack of positional behaviour in the games of Igor/ grandmaster.

Even Kaare danielsen computers in normal style do not play such an anti positional style.
And the strange thing about is, sometimes Igor / grandmaster even win with this kind of play. Maybe they out search the opponent. Whatever.

If you want we can discuss example games.

[spacious_mind]

Believe me horvath engines play very defensive and positional. It has to do with the programmer. He is a gentleman and would not use brute force.

Nelson had this program into his desk. Maybe some body took the printout of it and transferred it onto faster hardware.
That would explain the lack of positional behaviour in the games of Igor/ grandmaster.

Even Kaare danielsen computers in normal style do not play such an anti positional style.
And the strange thing about is, sometimes Igor / grandmaster even win with this kind of play. Maybe they out search the opponent. Whatever.

If you want we can discuss example games.

Hi Thorsten,

I believe you in that there are differences. I see them too. Yes please post your specific examples, in the meantime I will continue to test some other computers and programmers as well, to see if if we can get to a closer resolution.

This discussion is not going to go away very quickly so we might as well try to put everything out there and go from there.

The disagreement we have is that I just don't believe the cause results from Nelson, it doesnt fit timelines and the Nelson computers that I have looked at.

Regards

Nick

[paulwise3]

Hi Nick (and everyone else ),

Luuk Hofman has a nice variation of the Systema Jupiter,
see http://www.schaakcomputers.nl/schaakcom ... rk=Systema
Could it be the Jupiter the Luxe? It only says Jupiter, nothing else.
But he does not have a manual for it. Like yours, it has no display.
So how do you determine the level, and what levels does it have?
He tried some, and says that level A8 takes about 30-45 secs/move.

Hoping for level explaining, or even a complete copy of the manual...
Paul