Lovable - the cheapest and strongest machines

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Reinfeld
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Lovable - the cheapest and strongest machines

Post by Reinfeld »

An old question from Steve:
actually this brings up an interesting question
what is the cheapest(in terms of money..not housing construction) chess computer that played the strongest?
I guess we are looking for a very high ..strength to price ratio
I am not thinking about "Deals of the Century" Ebay auctions like that Mephisto TM was sold for
I thinking about computers sold ..when new.. with the highest Strength to Price ratio's

Hmmm Regards
Steve
This comes from an earlier thread that swiftly dissolved into a discussion of handhelds and Mephisto Advanced Travel. Nothing wrong with the analysis/assessment, but it obscured the question of tabletops.

To me, handhelds have become obsolete with the advent of phones. For all their charm, they're inconvenient, which leads me back to tabletops and what strikes me as the spirit of Steve's question: what's the cheapest/strongest enemy you ever stuck on the coffee table, where you actually *played?* Fidelity Excellence is my answer - I paid $100 for it back in the day, and played the crap out of it, abused it, repaired it.

I didn't know about other models then. I picked up Super Connie many years later, and I love it - but I don't like the knights. Too tippy. I don't care for Excaliburs. Igor, the only model that matters in this debate, is too clunky. Systema Challenge (I don't know original price) is a bit drab.

Years on, I still like Excellence. The hardware store housing gives an intimidating feel. The program is nasty and punishing, like a bouncer at a low-level club.

If you accept the romance of this hobby, it's really about the feel of things, the tactile element, which is pleasingly squishy. I suspect I'm not alone. I also suspect that we're talking about the group of machines that hovers around the 1800 ELO level. Every programmer seems to have skin in the game.

- R.
"You have, let us say, a promising politician, a rising artist that you wish to destroy. Dagger or bomb are archaic and unreliable - but teach him, inoculate him with chess."
– H.G. Wells
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Re: Lovable - the cheapest and strongest machines

Post by Steve B »

Reinfeld wrote:
If you accept the romance of this hobby, it's really about the feel of things, the tactile element, which is pleasingly squishy. I suspect I'm not alone.

- R.
This is it exactly
well said...

i know i am on dangerous ground here when i mention one of the computer's that fall into this category for me...here goes...
the Excalibur GM...(Takes cover)
cost me $199 brand spanking new and i dont think i have gone more then a month without playing it
i especially love the very sturdy plastic pieces...which i can hurl about the room in disgust after losing to an 1800 computer
the fact that you cant turn off the sound is actually a plus because it drowns out the unending chatter from my wife who loves to distract me whenever i find some precious free time to play chess

BTW...did i ever mention it was programmed by Ron Nelson??
:P

A Gluten For Punishment Regards
Steve
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Fernando
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Re: Lovable - the cheapest and strongest machines

Post by Fernando »

Reinfeld wrote:An old question from Steve:
actually this brings up an interesting question
what is the cheapest(in terms of money..not housing construction) chess computer that played the strongest?
I guess we are looking for a very high ..strength to price ratio
I am not thinking about "Deals of the Century" Ebay auctions like that Mephisto TM was sold for
I thinking about computers sold ..when new.. with the highest Strength to Price ratio's

Hmmm Regards
Steve
This comes from an earlier thread that swiftly dissolved into a discussion of handhelds and Mephisto Advanced Travel. Nothing wrong with the analysis/assessment, but it obscured the question of tabletops.

To me, handhelds have become obsolete with the advent of phones. For all their charm, they're inconvenient, which leads me back to tabletops and what strikes me as the spirit of Steve's question: what's the cheapest/strongest enemy you ever stuck on the coffee table, where you actually *played?* Fidelity Excellence is my answer - I paid $100 for it back in the day, and played the crap out of it, abused it, repaired it.

I didn't know about other models then. I picked up Super Connie many years later, and I love it - but I don't like the knights. Too tippy. I don't care for Excaliburs. Igor, the only model that matters in this debate, is too clunky. Systema Challenge (I don't know original price) is a bit drab.

Years on, I still like Excellence. The hardware store housing gives an intimidating feel. The program is nasty and punishing, like a bouncer at a low-level club.

If you accept the romance of this hobby, it's really about the feel of things, the tactile element, which is pleasingly squishy. I suspect I'm not alone. I also suspect that we're talking about the group of machines that hovers around the 1800 ELO level. Every programmer seems to have skin in the game.

- R.
I would consider Kasparov Travel, etc.
Very strong Morsh program, tiny size, etc.
Of course this and all contrivances of that age looks like dinosaurs compared with a common tablet where you can run engines around 2200 elo.

Fern
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ricard60
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Post by ricard60 »

The strongest and cheapest machine i have bought was saiytek Master Chess it cost me $180 with an elo of 2160 the ratio will be 2160/180=12. I also bought Saitek expert travel chess that has an elo of 2010 and it cost me $80 so the ratio will be 2010/80= 25.12. So The expert travel chess is a cheaper/stronger machine than Master Chess.
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vonderlasa
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strength to price ratio

Post by vonderlasa »

The ratio is now much worse for the expert travel computers. 2 are on auction at eBay for ~ $220, so 2000/220~9.
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Re: Lovable - the cheapest and strongest machines

Post by Mentat »

Reinfeld wrote:An old question from Steve:
actually this brings up an interesting question
what is the cheapest(in terms of money..not housing construction) chess computer that played the strongest?
I guess we are looking for a very high ..strength to price ratio
I am not thinking about "Deals of the Century" Ebay auctions like that Mephisto TM was sold for
I thinking about computers sold ..when new.. with the highest Strength to Price ratio's

Hmmm Regards
Steve
This comes from an earlier thread that swiftly dissolved into a discussion of handhelds and Mephisto Advanced Travel. Nothing wrong with the analysis/assessment, but it obscured the question of tabletops.

To me, handhelds have become obsolete with the advent of phones. For all their charm, they're inconvenient, which leads me back to tabletops and what strikes me as the spirit of Steve's question: what's the cheapest/strongest enemy you ever stuck on the coffee table, where you actually *played?* Fidelity Excellence is my answer - I paid $100 for it back in the day, and played the crap out of it, abused it, repaired it.

I didn't know about other models then. I picked up Super Connie many years later, and I love it - but I don't like the knights. Too tippy. I don't care for Excaliburs. Igor, the only model that matters in this debate, is too clunky. Systema Challenge (I don't know original price) is a bit drab.

Years on, I still like Excellence. The hardware store housing gives an intimidating feel. The program is nasty and punishing, like a bouncer at a low-level club.

If you accept the romance of this hobby, it's really about the feel of things, the tactile element, which is pleasingly squishy. I suspect I'm not alone. I also suspect that we're talking about the group of machines that hovers around the 1800 ELO level. Every programmer seems to have skin in the game.

- R.
A very inspired and thoughtful piece on the "quintessence" of the dedicated chess computer. You managed to capture the touch and feel and the affection that a fan of those has for the small apparently useless object in the room that no other person (except you) cares about. And your artful comparison to a bouncer, when writing about the Excellence, is priceless. I know exactly how you feel, thank you. I'd go along with you and say that for me too the Excellence (not overly strong, tough, ugly and sturdy as it is) is an object of beauty. The Excellence was also my first chess computer that could play real, tough, at times merciless, chess (the Fidelity Chess Challenger 7 had already been put away in a pantry). I still remember the Excellence and its tenacious and bitter struggle to survive the game.

What you just wrote explains so well why dedicateds are here to stay in spite of the desktop monsters and their glare from the screen. This difference applies to tablets and cell phone chess apps as well -- they are not able to offer the unique sensation of playing real chess the way a dedicated computer can. And your post explains why: we experience a dedicated as almost human, be they bouncers or scholars :)


Dj.
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Fernando
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Post by Fernando »

Amazing...

This is not just a congregation of lost souls and his antiques, but a bunch of poets.
Certainly to the particular material character of each of these old pieces of electronics must be added, as a part of its charm, the simple fact we can beat them here and there.
So the old and unpleasant question remains:
is a current tablet or phone, both of them as material things as Excellence but running disagreeable strong engine still part of our game?
I think they are not.

What we love is not just a chess computer dedicated to play chess, but one located in a piece of time than goes from 1978 to perhaps 1993.

Am I right, gentlemen?

Fern
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Post by Mentat »

Fernando wrote:Amazing...

This is not just a congregation of lost souls and his antiques, but a bunch of poets.
Certainly to the particular material character of each of these old pieces of electronics must be added, as a part of its charm, the simple fact we can beat them here and there.
So the old and unpleasant question remains:
is a current tablet or phone, both of them as material things as Excellence but running disagreeable strong engine still part of our game?
I think they are not.

What we love is not just a chess computer dedicated to play chess, but one located in a piece of time than goes from 1978 to perhaps 1993.

Am I right, gentlemen?

Fern

Touché :)

P.S. nothing wrong about a congregation of lost souls and poets, there is no latter without the former.
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Post by SirDave »

I agree with SteveB about the Excalibur GM, one of my favorite boards and which has been an extremely good value when it was selling for $100-150. Although this seller must be smoking something:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Excalibur-Grand ... 1379950599?

But my entry for most value for the ELO buck is the Radio Shack 1680X model 60-2428A which has an ELO of around 1600-1700 and which is a completely different motherboard than the RS 1680X model 60-2428 (which is just the Radio Shack version of the Saitek Olympiad, a too weak board with an ELO of 1200-1300). The model 60-2428A can be found on eBay for $20-50.

Boards with this form-factor are relatively ignored and underrated in chess board discussions, but include not only the above-mentioned model, but also others with ELOs of 1900-2000 which include the Mephisto Mythos, Saitek Executive and Mephisto Barracuda, all with ELOs circa 1900-2000. These boards have appeared on eBay from $40-100 and are very portable, very hardy and have both 8x8 LEDs and a large, very-readable LCD.

http://imageshack.us/a/img577/2862/97em.jpg
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Post by Eric Wainwright »

Fernando wrote:What we love is not just a chess computer dedicated to play chess, but one located in a piece of time than goes from 1978 to perhaps 1993.
Fern, I think you've nailed it. 1978-1993 was indeed the golden age of chess computers. Every machine produced in this era was infused with a magic charm that can never be equaled among the modern digital masters. There's no substitute for our occasional besting of a machine that was giving its all to defeat us with every means at its disposal.

iPhones and iTablets be damned. The newest and latest isn't always best. I'll be perfectly happy spending the rest of my days putting one of the old dedicated machines up to the ultimate challenge.

-Eric
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Post by Fernando »

Eric Wainwright wrote:
Fernando wrote:What we love is not just a chess computer dedicated to play chess, but one located in a piece of time than goes from 1978 to perhaps 1993.
Fern, I think you've nailed it. 1978-1993 was indeed the golden age of chess computers. Every machine produced in this era was infused with a magic charm that can never be equaled among the modern digital masters. There's no substitute for our occasional besting of a machine that was giving its all to defeat us with every means at its disposal.

iPhones and iTablets be damned. The newest and latest isn't always best. I'll be perfectly happy spending the rest of my days putting one of the old dedicated machines up to the ultimate challenge.

-Eric

Well said.
And as to enforce this I bested today Alexandra with a beautiful game ending in a checkmate.
Oh yes, she defended as mad, but I was cautious and patient.


1978-1993 are the times indeed

Fern
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Reinfeld
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Post by Reinfeld »

Steve said this:
i know i am on dangerous ground here when i mention one of the computer's that fall into this category for me...here goes...
the Excalibur GM...(Takes cover)
cost me $199 brand spanking new and i dont think i have gone more then a month without playing it
i especially love the very sturdy plastic pieces...which i can hurl about the room in disgust after losing to an 1800 computer
the fact that you cant turn off the sound is actually a plus because it drowns out the unending chatter from my wife who loves to distract me whenever i find some precious free time to play chess
I have the GM - I do like it. I paid $100 for it, used. I like the idea of it. Among dedicateds, it's unique - possibly the best idea Excalibur ever had, so smart that it's hard to believe no one else tried it. The beautiful wooden boards from Mephisto, Fidelity, TASC et al were an attempt to hit that sweet spot of luxury, but they were/are pricey and temperamental. Excalibur found the answer with the less expensive housing while (remarkably) preserving the auto-sensory element. Again, I like the GM. It plays a nice game - just strong enough to keep you alert - but it's also just a bit big. You've got to set it out and leave it there, and that's not always practical with kids, pets, meals and other distractions. For that reason, I like the slightly smaller plastic boards (i.e., Excellence). You can move them out of the way and come back.

SirDave said this:
But my entry for most value for the ELO buck is the Radio Shack 1680X model 60-2428A which has an ELO of around 1600-1700 and which is a completely different motherboard than the RS 1680X model 60-2428 (which is just the Radio Shack version of the Saitek Olympiad, a too weak board with an ELO of 1200-1300). The model 60-2428A can be found on eBay for $20-50.
Any info on the programmer? Another Radio Shack mystery? Wiki-Elo says it's Craig Barnes...

Mentat (ah, bless Frank Herbert) said this:
I still remember the Excellence and its tenacious and bitter struggle to survive the game.


When I first discovered this forum, I posted a question that plagued me about Excellence. In the early days of my ownership, I tested it against one of my favorite games, a gorgeous miniature: Fischer v Fine, NY 1963, a pretty Evans Gambit. Here are the moves:

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Bc5 4.b4 Bxb4 5.c3 Ba5 6.d4 exd4 7.0-0 dxc3 8.Qb3 Qe7 9.Nxc3 Nf6 10.Nd5 Nxd5 11.exd5 Ne5 12.Nxe5 Qxe5 13.Bb2 Qg5 14.h4 Qxh4 15.Bxg7 Rg8 16.Rfe1+ Kd8 17.Qg3 1-0

Here's the key position that led to my old question:

[fen]r1b1k1nr/ppppqppp/2n5/b7/2B1P3/1QN2N2/P4PPP/R1B2RK1 w kq - 0 9[/fen]

The first time I ran Excellence through this game back in the 1980s, it followed Reuben Fine's moves note for note, and played Fine's move, 9...Nf6, which allows Fischer's vicious rejoinder.

I played Fischer's move on the board with joy, and finished off the game. Then I tried to do it again - and Excellence didn't play Fine's move. Instead, it played 9...Bxc3, which obviously changes the character of the game. Almost 30 years have passed since then, and I've tried many times to see if Excellence would repeat Fine's move. It never has.

I know a lot more about how these machines work as a result of intel gained from this forum, but the enigma remains. In the old days, I simply played Excellence at its default level and tried to duplicate Fine's move. I've tried other methods since - changing time controls, ponder off, etc. Nothing works. It made me wonder whether Excellence had some sort of crude learning function. Steve and others assured me that wasn't possible - I accept that, but I love the mystery.

Fernando said this:
1978-1993 are the times indeed
I came to an understanding of the hobby far later, but I think he's right - though the later Novags are pretty cool. My second favorite machine is Obsidian.

Yours in dedicated love regards,

- R.
"You have, let us say, a promising politician, a rising artist that you wish to destroy. Dagger or bomb are archaic and unreliable - but teach him, inoculate him with chess."
– H.G. Wells
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Post by IanO »

Reinfeld wrote:Steve said this:
i know i am on dangerous ground here when i mention one of the computer's that fall into this category for me...here goes...
the Excalibur GM...(Takes cover)
cost me $199 brand spanking new and i dont think i have gone more then a month without playing it
i especially love the very sturdy plastic pieces...which i can hurl about the room in disgust after losing to an 1800 computer
the fact that you cant turn off the sound is actually a plus because it drowns out the unending chatter from my wife who loves to distract me whenever i find some precious free time to play chess
I have the GM - I do like it. I paid $100 for it, used. I like the idea of it. Among dedicateds, it's unique - possibly the best idea Excalibur ever had, so smart that it's hard to believe no one else tried it. The beautiful wooden boards from Mephisto, Fidelity, TASC et al were an attempt to hit that sweet spot of luxury, but they were/are pricey and temperamental. Excalibur found the answer with the less expensive housing while (remarkably) preserving the auto-sensory element. Again, I like the GM. It plays a nice game - just strong enough to keep you alert - but it's also just a bit big. You've got to set it out and leave it there, and that's not always practical with kids, pets, meals and other distractions. For that reason, I like the slightly smaller plastic boards (i.e., Excellence). You can move them out of the way and come back.

Yours in dedicated love regards,

- R.
On that note, there was another auto sensory model that was aimed more at the mid-range: the Mephisto Academy. A smaller board and pieces, modular, and a weaker processor. I'm sad that its module form-factor never took off, so we only have Schröder's fine program for it and the one model that accepted his module.

On the topic, it is hard to beat Morsch for bang-for-the-buck, at least tactically. His were the only dedicated engines to implement the null-move heuristic, which really works wonders at the small ply depth dedicated systems operate at. And he apparently licensed his engines for a song, since they made their way into so many different units. Too bad they are so pitiful at positional and endgame play. One forgets how much special endgame and eval knowledge was put into the early units from the Spracklens, Lang, and Kittinger, making up for the lack of search depth and hash tables.

Ian
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Re: Lovable - the cheapest and strongest machines

Post by IanO »

Reinfeld wrote:An old question from Steve:
actually this brings up an interesting question
what is the cheapest(in terms of money..not housing construction) chess computer that played the strongest?
I guess we are looking for a very high ..strength to price ratio
I am not thinking about "Deals of the Century" Ebay auctions like that Mephisto TM was sold for
I thinking about computers sold ..when new.. with the highest Strength to Price ratio's

Hmmm Regards
Steve
This comes from an earlier thread that swiftly dissolved into a discussion of handhelds and Mephisto Advanced Travel. Nothing wrong with the analysis/assessment, but it obscured the question of tabletops.

To me, handhelds have become obsolete with the advent of phones. For all their charm, they're inconvenient, which leads me back to tabletops and what strikes me as the spirit of Steve's question: what's the cheapest/strongest enemy you ever stuck on the coffee table, where you actually *played?* Fidelity Excellence is my answer - I paid $100 for it back in the day, and played the crap out of it, abused it, repaired it.

I didn't know about other models then. I picked up Super Connie many years later, and I love it - but I don't like the knights. Too tippy. I don't care for Excaliburs. Igor, the only model that matters in this debate, is too clunky. Systema Challenge (I don't know original price) is a bit drab.

Years on, I still like Excellence. The hardware store housing gives an intimidating feel. The program is nasty and punishing, like a bouncer at a low-level club.

If you accept the romance of this hobby, it's really about the feel of things, the tactile element, which is pleasingly squishy. I suspect I'm not alone. I also suspect that we're talking about the group of machines that hovers around the 1800 ELO level. Every programmer seems to have skin in the game.

- R.
The reason handhelds come up, is because the strength-to-price ratio is mostly dependent on price, and the handhelds were priced the cheapest. For example, taking the data from the Activ list:

Code: Select all

  Atlanta             2266/400 = 5.67
  Star Diamond        2180/249 = 8.75
  Star Sapphire       2180/229 = 9.52
  Milano Pro          2076/170 = 12.21
  Radio Shack 2250XL  2059/100 = 20.59  ($170 ~ 100€)
  Explorer Pro        2050/100 = 20.5
  Novag Jade II       2043/100 = 20.43
  Expert Travel       2020/80 = 25.25
  Advanced Travel     1973/50 = 39.46
The Advanced Travel is such a good value simply because it was sold so cheaply.

Another thing we can glean: the newer the model the better value it is. The engine that was sold at a premium in the heyday of computer chess due to its competitive strength, thus ending up in the mid- to high-price range, becomes a low- to mid-tier model when sold a decade or two later after the wave had passed.
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