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- spacious_mind
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And a couple of more test results.
1) Gavon Greko v. 10.3 written by Vladimir Medvedev finished with a score of ELO 2509 which puts this program into 3rd place:
2) Radio Shack Mega 2050X scored ELO 2042
http://www.spacious-mind.com/html/mega_2050x.html
The score of ELO 2042 places Radio Shack 2050X just above Excalibur Grandmaster.
The above lot looks like a fun tournament to play.
Total of 92 programs now tested.
best regards
1) Gavon Greko v. 10.3 written by Vladimir Medvedev finished with a score of ELO 2509 which puts this program into 3rd place:
2) Radio Shack Mega 2050X scored ELO 2042
http://www.spacious-mind.com/html/mega_2050x.html
The score of ELO 2042 places Radio Shack 2050X just above Excalibur Grandmaster.
The above lot looks like a fun tournament to play.
Total of 92 programs now tested.
best regards
Nick
- spacious_mind
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Here are some more scores:
EXCALIBUR MIRAGE
Image is from Mike Watters archive: http://www.chesscomputeruk.com/html/sal ... _2011.html
Excalibur Mirage scored ELO 2024 at Level 53 - 30 Seconds average time.
FIDELITY SUPER 9
Fidelity Super 9 from Dan & Kathe Spracklen scored ELO 1802.
Image is from The Spacious Mind: http://www.spacious-mind.com/html/super_9.html
FIDELITY SUPER 9 DELUXE
Fidelity Super 9 Deluxe although slightly faster at 2.5 MHz compared to the 2 MHz of Super 9, did not score quite as well, finishing with ELO 1769
Image is from The Spacious Mind: http://www.spacious-mind.com/html/super_9_deluxe.html
UPDATED RATING LIST
Best regards
EXCALIBUR MIRAGE
Image is from Mike Watters archive: http://www.chesscomputeruk.com/html/sal ... _2011.html
Excalibur Mirage scored ELO 2024 at Level 53 - 30 Seconds average time.
FIDELITY SUPER 9
Fidelity Super 9 from Dan & Kathe Spracklen scored ELO 1802.
Image is from The Spacious Mind: http://www.spacious-mind.com/html/super_9.html
FIDELITY SUPER 9 DELUXE
Fidelity Super 9 Deluxe although slightly faster at 2.5 MHz compared to the 2 MHz of Super 9, did not score quite as well, finishing with ELO 1769
Image is from The Spacious Mind: http://www.spacious-mind.com/html/super_9_deluxe.html
UPDATED RATING LIST
Best regards
Nick
- spacious_mind
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Re: Yeah.
I am pretty sure that everyone that visits this Forum loves chess!addseo1115 wrote:I love chess.
Best regards
Nick
- spacious_mind
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FIDELITY EXCELLENCE MODEL EP12
http://www.spacious-mind.com/html/excel ... ion_a.html
Overall Excellence EP12 from 1985 with 4 MHz scored better then the earlier Super 9 from 1982 with 2 MHz. Except for test game 4 where it scored worse.
It seems that the style needed to play well the types of games such as test game 4, was not improved between the versions. Or is SU9 and EP12 the same program with difference just being that EP12 is faster?
FIDELITY EXCELLENCE MODEL EP12 RATING
Surprisingly the final test score is exactly the same score as the ELO rating for tournament play at Schachcomputer.info.
http://www.schachcomputer.info/html/pri ... liste.html
I just love it when I get lucky.
Best regards
http://www.spacious-mind.com/html/excel ... ion_a.html
Overall Excellence EP12 from 1985 with 4 MHz scored better then the earlier Super 9 from 1982 with 2 MHz. Except for test game 4 where it scored worse.
It seems that the style needed to play well the types of games such as test game 4, was not improved between the versions. Or is SU9 and EP12 the same program with difference just being that EP12 is faster?
FIDELITY EXCELLENCE MODEL EP12 RATING
Surprisingly the final test score is exactly the same score as the ELO rating for tournament play at Schachcomputer.info.
http://www.schachcomputer.info/html/pri ... liste.html
I just love it when I get lucky.
Best regards
Nick
- spacious_mind
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Some more tests.
GAVON RODENT V. 1.2 WRITTEN BY PAVEL KOZIOL
Gavon Rodent v. 1.2 scored 2551 ELO and jumps into 3rd place on the rating chart.
GAVON CHENG4 V. 0.36C WRITTEN BY MARTIN SEDLAK
Cheng4v. 0.36c scored ELO 2510 and settles for 4th place on the rating chart.
FIDELITY EXCEL 68000 MACH IIB WITTEN BY DAN & KATHE SPRACKLEN
Picture taken from The Spacious-Mind: http://www.spacious-mind.com/html/mach_ ... rsion.html
Mach IIb really underachieved, finishing with a meager score of ELO 1788. That is well below expectations. It did not really like any of the Test games.
UPDATED RATING LIST
Century Mark achieved!
Best regards
GAVON RODENT V. 1.2 WRITTEN BY PAVEL KOZIOL
Gavon Rodent v. 1.2 scored 2551 ELO and jumps into 3rd place on the rating chart.
GAVON CHENG4 V. 0.36C WRITTEN BY MARTIN SEDLAK
Cheng4v. 0.36c scored ELO 2510 and settles for 4th place on the rating chart.
FIDELITY EXCEL 68000 MACH IIB WITTEN BY DAN & KATHE SPRACKLEN
Picture taken from The Spacious-Mind: http://www.spacious-mind.com/html/mach_ ... rsion.html
Mach IIb really underachieved, finishing with a meager score of ELO 1788. That is well below expectations. It did not really like any of the Test games.
UPDATED RATING LIST
Century Mark achieved!
Best regards
Nick
- spacious_mind
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Here is the test result for Mephisto Montana.
MEPHISTO MONTANA BY FRANS MORSCH
Mephisto Montana runs on a 10MHz SH7000 ROM with 16KB ROM and 1KB RAM.
It's final score in this test was ELO 2046, finishing just above RadioShack Mega 2050X which is also a Frans Morsch.
MEPHISTO MONTANA TEST RANKING
In fact, Mephisto Montana and RadioShack Mega 2050X do seem to have the exact same program. Here is how they deviated:
TEST GAME DEVIATIONS
Test game 1 White - 17 moves - 0 Deviations = 100% clone.
Test game 1 Black - 17 moves - 0 Deviations = 100% clone.
===============================================
Test game 1 Total - 34 moves - 0 Deviations = 100% clone.
Test game 2 White - 21 moves - 0 Deviations = 100% clone.
Test game 2 Black - 21 moves - 4 Deviations = 81% clone.
===============================================
Test game 2 Total - 42 moves - 4 Deviations = 90.5% clone.
Test game 3 White - 19 moves - 0 Deviations = 100% clone.
Test game 3 Black - 19 moves - 1 Deviations = 94.7% clone.
===============================================
Test game 3 Total - 38 moves - 1 Deviations = 97.4% clone.
Test game 4 White - 33 moves - 0 Deviations = 100% clone.
Test game 4 Black - 33 moves - 2 Deviations = 93.4% clone.
===============================================
Test game 4 Total - 66 moves - 2 Deviations = 97.0% clone.
Test game 5 White - 23 moves - 2 Deviations = 91.3% clone.
Test game 5 Black - 23 moves - 1 Deviations = 95.7% clone.
===============================================
Test game 5 Total - 46 moves - 3 Deviations = 93.5% clone.
ALL TESTS TOTALLED DEVIATIONS
Test game 5 White - 113 moves - 2 Deviations = 98.2% clone.
Test game 5 Black - 113 moves - 8 Deviations = 92.9% clone.
===============================================
Test game 5 Total - 226 moves - 10 Deviations = 95.6% clone.
Well that sums it up, Mephisto Montana and RadioShack Mega 2050X are definitely clones.
Best regards
MEPHISTO MONTANA BY FRANS MORSCH
Mephisto Montana runs on a 10MHz SH7000 ROM with 16KB ROM and 1KB RAM.
It's final score in this test was ELO 2046, finishing just above RadioShack Mega 2050X which is also a Frans Morsch.
MEPHISTO MONTANA TEST RANKING
In fact, Mephisto Montana and RadioShack Mega 2050X do seem to have the exact same program. Here is how they deviated:
TEST GAME DEVIATIONS
Test game 1 White - 17 moves - 0 Deviations = 100% clone.
Test game 1 Black - 17 moves - 0 Deviations = 100% clone.
===============================================
Test game 1 Total - 34 moves - 0 Deviations = 100% clone.
Test game 2 White - 21 moves - 0 Deviations = 100% clone.
Test game 2 Black - 21 moves - 4 Deviations = 81% clone.
===============================================
Test game 2 Total - 42 moves - 4 Deviations = 90.5% clone.
Test game 3 White - 19 moves - 0 Deviations = 100% clone.
Test game 3 Black - 19 moves - 1 Deviations = 94.7% clone.
===============================================
Test game 3 Total - 38 moves - 1 Deviations = 97.4% clone.
Test game 4 White - 33 moves - 0 Deviations = 100% clone.
Test game 4 Black - 33 moves - 2 Deviations = 93.4% clone.
===============================================
Test game 4 Total - 66 moves - 2 Deviations = 97.0% clone.
Test game 5 White - 23 moves - 2 Deviations = 91.3% clone.
Test game 5 Black - 23 moves - 1 Deviations = 95.7% clone.
===============================================
Test game 5 Total - 46 moves - 3 Deviations = 93.5% clone.
ALL TESTS TOTALLED DEVIATIONS
Test game 5 White - 113 moves - 2 Deviations = 98.2% clone.
Test game 5 Black - 113 moves - 8 Deviations = 92.9% clone.
===============================================
Test game 5 Total - 226 moves - 10 Deviations = 95.6% clone.
Well that sums it up, Mephisto Montana and RadioShack Mega 2050X are definitely clones.
Best regards
Nick
- paulwise3
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- Location: Eindhoven, Netherlands
Hi Nick,spacious_mind wrote:Here is the test result for Mephisto Montana.
Mephisto Montana runs on a 10MHz SH7000 ROM with 16KB ROM and 1KB RAM.
It's final score in this test was ELO 2046, finishing just above RadioShack Mega 2050X which is also a Frans Morsch.
That is a surprise, given that it's supposed to be a GK 2000 clone, ranked 200 elo-points higher than the CXG Legend/Concerto. In your test it comes just below the CXG Legend/Concerto, the main reason for that seems a bad score in Game 5. But, while training for the simultan at June 13 against Hans Böhm, the Concerto played two testgames with black against the Turbo Advanced Trainer (all features set to 20), and scored a 1.5-0.5 win!
That could be lucky, but they were good games. So I guess either one of the two is overrated, or one is underrated. Or ...
F20 was a lucky shot regards,
Paul.
2024 Special thread: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=12741
2024 Special results and standings: https://schaakcomputers.nl/paul_w/Tourn ... 25_06.html
If I am mistaken, it must be caused by a horizon effect...
2024 Special results and standings: https://schaakcomputers.nl/paul_w/Tourn ... 25_06.html
If I am mistaken, it must be caused by a horizon effect...
- spacious_mind
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Hi Paul,paulwise3 wrote:Hi Nick,spacious_mind wrote:Here is the test result for Mephisto Montana.
Mephisto Montana runs on a 10MHz SH7000 ROM with 16KB ROM and 1KB RAM.
It's final score in this test was ELO 2046, finishing just above RadioShack Mega 2050X which is also a Frans Morsch.
That is a surprise, given that it's supposed to be a GK 2000 clone, ranked 200 elo-points higher than the CXG Legend/Concerto. In your test it comes just below the CXG Legend/Concerto, the main reason for that seems a bad score in Game 5. But, while training for the simultan at June 13 against Hans Böhm, the Concerto played two testgames with black against the Turbo Advanced Trainer (all features set to 20), and scored a 1.5-0.5 win!
That could be lucky, but they were good games. So I guess either one of the two is overrated, or one is underrated. Or ...
F20 was a lucky shot regards,
Paul.
Another way that you can look at the test games results is that if the final scores of each of the tests were the scores of a match then Concerto would also have beaten Montana by a score 3-2
Best regards
Nick
- spacious_mind
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spacious_mind wrote:Hi Paul,paulwise3 wrote:Hi Nick,spacious_mind wrote:Here is the test result for Mephisto Montana.
Mephisto Montana runs on a 10MHz SH7000 ROM with 16KB ROM and 1KB RAM.
It's final score in this test was ELO 2046, finishing just above RadioShack Mega 2050X which is also a Frans Morsch.
That is a surprise, given that it's supposed to be a GK 2000 clone, ranked 200 elo-points higher than the CXG Legend/Concerto. In your test it comes just below the CXG Legend/Concerto, the main reason for that seems a bad score in Game 5. But, while training for the simultan at June 13 against Hans Böhm, the Concerto played two testgames with black against the Turbo Advanced Trainer (all features set to 20), and scored a 1.5-0.5 win!
That could be lucky, but they were good games. So I guess either one of the two is overrated, or one is underrated. Or ...
F20 was a lucky shot regards,
Paul.
And... beaten Dominator 3 - 2, even if you were to set a rule that for example scores of say within 50 points = draw
Hey it would even have beaten Igor 4-1 or 50 point draw rule score would have been a score of 2.1/2 - 2.1/2
But maybe within 30 points should be classified a draw then score would be 3.1/2 - 1.1/2 win for Concerto against Igor
Famous Quote "NONSENCE" J/K regards
Nick
- paulwise3
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- Location: Eindhoven, Netherlands
Hi Nick,
These are nice comparisons .
I can imagine that normally the Legend/Concerto looses points by playing in a relatively passive style. One could argue that the normal style 5 objectively spoken plays strongest, but if it plays too passive it can get in trouble/under pressure against weaker opponents that do play active. I experienced that in two 4 game minimatches against the Europa. The first match was in normal style, and (if I recall well) in only one game (with black) it came better out of the opening phase. This match ended in a draw: +1-1=2.
The second minimatch with feature settings all set to 20 was a completely different story. Two regular wins with white, two short draws with black by 3 times move repetition.
So maybe in style 5 it plays best, but style F20 (as I call it now) seems more effective, gives better results in normal gameplay.
And testing these settings with your testgames gives allmost the same average rating. I should send you these tests, will do shortly.
Viva Concerto regards,
Paul
These are nice comparisons .
I can imagine that normally the Legend/Concerto looses points by playing in a relatively passive style. One could argue that the normal style 5 objectively spoken plays strongest, but if it plays too passive it can get in trouble/under pressure against weaker opponents that do play active. I experienced that in two 4 game minimatches against the Europa. The first match was in normal style, and (if I recall well) in only one game (with black) it came better out of the opening phase. This match ended in a draw: +1-1=2.
The second minimatch with feature settings all set to 20 was a completely different story. Two regular wins with white, two short draws with black by 3 times move repetition.
So maybe in style 5 it plays best, but style F20 (as I call it now) seems more effective, gives better results in normal gameplay.
And testing these settings with your testgames gives allmost the same average rating. I should send you these tests, will do shortly.
Viva Concerto regards,
Paul
2024 Special thread: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=12741
2024 Special results and standings: https://schaakcomputers.nl/paul_w/Tourn ... 25_06.html
If I am mistaken, it must be caused by a horizon effect...
2024 Special results and standings: https://schaakcomputers.nl/paul_w/Tourn ... 25_06.html
If I am mistaken, it must be caused by a horizon effect...
- spacious_mind
- Senior Member
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- Joined: Wed Aug 01, 2007 10:20 pm
- Location: Alabama
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Yes did you notice how well balanced the 5 game results were in comparison to a lot of other computers ie. Morsch's (GK2000) game 5 weakness or Spracklen and Lang's terrible game 4 scores.paulwise3 wrote:Hi Nick,
These are nice comparisons .
I can imagine that normally the Legend/Concerto looses points by playing in a relatively passive style. One could argue that the normal style 5 objectively spoken plays strongest, but if it plays too passive it can get in trouble/under pressure against weaker opponents that do play active. I experienced that in two 4 game minimatches against the Europa. The first match was in normal style, and (if I recall well) in only one game (with black) it came better out of the opening phase. This match ended in a draw: +1-1=2.
The second minimatch with feature settings all set to 20 was a completely different story. Two regular wins with white, two short draws with black by 3 times move repetition.
So maybe in style 5 it plays best, but style F20 (as I call it now) seems more effective, gives better results in normal gameplay.
And testing these settings with your testgames gives allmost the same average rating. I should send you these tests, will do shortly.
Viva Concerto regards,
Paul
Concerto = evenly balanced
Igor = evenly balanced
No huge game 1 spikes or game 4 or 5 lows as in many other computers.
Soooooooooo many coincidences down to same end score, amazing how the gods of luck shuffle their dice.
Lucky.... Lucky... Lucky... regards
Nick
- spacious_mind
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Here are some new additions to the tests. I have added DOS 486-66MHz Mephisto Advantage as well as Tasc Chess Machine 32 MHz Gideon 3.0 and King 2.2.
DOS 486-66 MHZ MEPHISTO ADVANTAGE (Gideon 1.0) FROM ED SCHROEDER
Mephisto Advantage which I think is also known as Gideon 1.0 for DOS is I believe quite similar to Gideon 3.0 on the Tasc Chessmachine. It has 4 play style combinations and scored as follows:
Mephisto Advantage - Normal Setting + Combination OFF = ELO 2358
Mephisto Advantage - Normal Setting + Combination On = ELO 2291
Mephisto Advantage - Aggressive Setting + Combination OFF = ELO 2399
Mephisto Advantage - Aggressive Setting + Combination On = ELO 2397
With Mephisto Advantage it seems that the Aggressive Settings are the best settings for playing. In some situations however Combination OFF perform best and in other situations Combination ON performs best.
TASC CHESSMACHINE 32 MHZ Gideon 3.0 FROM ED SCHROEDER
Tasc Chessmachine Gideon 3.0 has two style setting, NORMAL and AGGRESSIVE. It does also have an EASY setting which turns Ponder OFF and a BRUTE FORCE setting. For these tests I only used the NORMAL and AGGRESSIVE setting, which obviously should be the two strongest settings. It scored as follows:
Tasc Chessmachine 32 MHz Gideon 3.0 - Normal Setting = ELO 2269
Tasc Chessmachine 32 MHz Gideon 3.0 - Aggressive Setting = ELO 2345
As with Mephisto Advantage, Gideon 3.0 seems to play at it's strongest with the Aggressive Setting. This is slightly different to the later Gideon 3.1 Madrid version where the NORMAL setting performed slightly better than the AGGRESSIVE setting.
TASC CHESSMACHINE 32 MHZ King 2.2 FROM Johan de Koning
Tasc Chessmachine 32 MHz King 2.2 has all the same style setting as Gideon 3.1. These style setting btw apply to all Tasc Chessmachine chess cards and chess programs.
Tasc Chessmachine 32 MHz King 2.2 - Normal Setting = ELO 2479
Tasc Chessmachine 32 MHz King 2.2 - Aggressive Setting = ELO 2437
With Tasc Chessmachine 32 MHz King 2.2 the NORMAL setting performs the best. This program is a monster and under this normal setting it even out performed the previously highest perform dedicated chess card program King 2.54! This makes King 2.2 the strongest original manufacturer dedicated program tested. The only programs that have possible chance to surpass it are maybe King 2.2 & 2.5 on Tasc R30 or King 2.5 on R40?
STANDING FOR LATEST TEST ADDITIONS
King 2.2 almost scored ELO 3000 in Test Game 3 !!!!!!
King 2.2 rules for now... regards
DOS 486-66 MHZ MEPHISTO ADVANTAGE (Gideon 1.0) FROM ED SCHROEDER
Mephisto Advantage which I think is also known as Gideon 1.0 for DOS is I believe quite similar to Gideon 3.0 on the Tasc Chessmachine. It has 4 play style combinations and scored as follows:
Mephisto Advantage - Normal Setting + Combination OFF = ELO 2358
Mephisto Advantage - Normal Setting + Combination On = ELO 2291
Mephisto Advantage - Aggressive Setting + Combination OFF = ELO 2399
Mephisto Advantage - Aggressive Setting + Combination On = ELO 2397
With Mephisto Advantage it seems that the Aggressive Settings are the best settings for playing. In some situations however Combination OFF perform best and in other situations Combination ON performs best.
TASC CHESSMACHINE 32 MHZ Gideon 3.0 FROM ED SCHROEDER
Tasc Chessmachine Gideon 3.0 has two style setting, NORMAL and AGGRESSIVE. It does also have an EASY setting which turns Ponder OFF and a BRUTE FORCE setting. For these tests I only used the NORMAL and AGGRESSIVE setting, which obviously should be the two strongest settings. It scored as follows:
Tasc Chessmachine 32 MHz Gideon 3.0 - Normal Setting = ELO 2269
Tasc Chessmachine 32 MHz Gideon 3.0 - Aggressive Setting = ELO 2345
As with Mephisto Advantage, Gideon 3.0 seems to play at it's strongest with the Aggressive Setting. This is slightly different to the later Gideon 3.1 Madrid version where the NORMAL setting performed slightly better than the AGGRESSIVE setting.
TASC CHESSMACHINE 32 MHZ King 2.2 FROM Johan de Koning
Tasc Chessmachine 32 MHz King 2.2 has all the same style setting as Gideon 3.1. These style setting btw apply to all Tasc Chessmachine chess cards and chess programs.
Tasc Chessmachine 32 MHz King 2.2 - Normal Setting = ELO 2479
Tasc Chessmachine 32 MHz King 2.2 - Aggressive Setting = ELO 2437
With Tasc Chessmachine 32 MHz King 2.2 the NORMAL setting performs the best. This program is a monster and under this normal setting it even out performed the previously highest perform dedicated chess card program King 2.54! This makes King 2.2 the strongest original manufacturer dedicated program tested. The only programs that have possible chance to surpass it are maybe King 2.2 & 2.5 on Tasc R30 or King 2.5 on R40?
STANDING FOR LATEST TEST ADDITIONS
King 2.2 almost scored ELO 3000 in Test Game 3 !!!!!!
King 2.2 rules for now... regards
Nick
- spacious_mind
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Here is the complete list of all the tested chess programs combined into one list.
COLOR KEY
I have added a color key to allow me to show the chess programs that I would include in any tournaments with dedicated chess computers and keep the challenge competitive. This is based on the top Tasc R30 or Chessmachine programs being entered as well.
COMPLETE RATING LIST
A total 140 tests carried out so far!
Best regards
COLOR KEY
I have added a color key to allow me to show the chess programs that I would include in any tournaments with dedicated chess computers and keep the challenge competitive. This is based on the top Tasc R30 or Chessmachine programs being entered as well.
COMPLETE RATING LIST
A total 140 tests carried out so far!
Best regards
Nick
- spacious_mind
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- Location: Alabama
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Here is the latest list with the 7 Resurrection programs added. I used the fixed time setting for Resurrection.
COLOR KEY
Help tool for including non dedicated programs in dedicated tournaments.
COMPLETE RATING LIST
Based on the above test results, Gavon at 700 MHz and Resurrection at 203 MHz show Fruit 2.1 to be around 200+ ELO stronger with Gavon, which probably is about right based on the speed difference.
Best regards
COLOR KEY
Help tool for including non dedicated programs in dedicated tournaments.
COMPLETE RATING LIST
Based on the above test results, Gavon at 700 MHz and Resurrection at 203 MHz show Fruit 2.1 to be around 200+ ELO stronger with Gavon, which probably is about right based on the speed difference.
Best regards
Nick