Newbie posts Star Diamond Mach 4 match

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Dave C
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Post by Dave C »

Four.nine wrote: Final note to Dave: M4-33 is up 10-7. Unfortunately your 10-10 prediction, while admirable, is not looking too good.
When it comes to predictions I am spectacularly poor...but I'm rooting for M4-33.

Mod Squad! Yes I remember. :oops: Interesting collection of Triobyte's work. I have a DD2000 I'm considering moving the 68030-66 board into. The original DD2100 is considerably stronger than the original DD2000 so if I'm going to "improve" one of them I think I should improve the lesser unit. But the black case of the DD2100 looks more like a Mach 4 original.

I played a TASC R30-2.5 a few games against the M4-66 and the TASC kicked-butt, as you would expect, 3-1. I need to conduct a longer tournament between these two computers.

Looking forward to the finale.
Dave
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Post by Four.nine »

Solid!
(and I'm holding up my right fist).

I kinda like the idea of having my stronger board in the "weaker" housing! I'm so flexible. You can call me a Hiarcs table top chess computer iconoclast.

TascR30....2.5...!...(2.5, 66) Your always one upping me Dave, but the score sounds just about right for the M4-66.

One last thing, bad predictions? Well, you'll just have to wait and see ( this time only a couple of minutes):

Final entry M4-33 SD.

Game 18 “Game of the Match”​SD ass pounds M4-33; has win at move 18!

[Event "SD Mach4-33 match"]
[Black "SD"]
[Date "Mar 18, 2017"]
[Result "0-1"]
[Round "18"]
[White "Mach4-33"]

1.e4 c6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 dxe4 4.Nxe4 Bf5 5.Ng3 Bg6 6.h4 h6 7.Nf3 Nd7 8.h5 Bh7 9.Bd3 Bxd3 10.Qxd3 Qc7 11.Bd2 e6 12.Qe2 Ngf6 13.O-O-O c5 14.Bc3 O-O-O 15.Ne5 Nd5 16.Ba5 Qxa5 17.Nxf7 Qxa2 18.Nxh8 cxd4 19.Rxd4 Qa1+ 20.Kd2 Qxb2 21.Qg4 Bc5 22.Rxd5 exd5 23.Nf7 Bb4+ 24.Ke3 Re8+ 25.Kf3 Qc3+ 26.Kf4 Re7 27.Qd1 Qc4+ 28.Ne4 Qxe4+ 29.Kg3 Rxf7 30.Rf1 Bd6+ 31.Kh3 Qe5 32.f4 Rxf4 33.Rxf4 Qxf4 34.Qe1 Qh2+ 35.Kg4 Qxg2+ 36.Kf5 Qg5+ 37.Ke6 Qe7+ 38.Kxd5 Nb6+ 39.Kd4 Qxe1 40.Kd3 Nd5 41.c3 Qxc3+ 42.Ke2 Nf4+ 43.Kf1 Qf3+ 44.Kg1 Qg2# 0-1

B19o: Caro-Kann: Classical in book for 13 full moves. At move 16, M4-33 thought it had a nice quick trick for a B+N for R+P exchange with 16. Ba5? Didn’t quite work out as 18. Nxh8?????????? is GAME OVER!!! Just that quick, White is down -8.2! Star Diamond played superbly from move 16 through 33 and just missed the quickest finish at 34. .. Qf5+ mate in 6. SD 34. Qh2+ took 4 moves longer. The attack was simply one of the BEST ever, especially against a 2200 rated machine. Match now 10-8 for M4-33. Can Star Diamond pick up two more wins to draw?

Game 19 A 100% copy of Game 1: SD CRUSHING DEFEAT OF M4-33

[Event "SD-M4-33 match"]
[Black "M4-33"]
[Date "Mar 2, 2017"]
[Result "1-0"]
[Round "19"]
[White "Star Diamond"]

1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 a6 6.Bg5 e6 7.f4 Be7 8.Qf3 Qc7 9.O-O-O Nbd7 10.g4 b5 11.Bxf6 Nxf6 12.g5 Nd7 13.f5 Nc5 14.f6 gxf6 15.gxf6 Bf8 16.Rg1 b4 17.Nce2 Bb7 18.Ng3 d5 19.exd5 Bxd5 20.Qe3 Bxa2 21.Bg2 Rd8 22.Bc6+ Nd7 23.Ngf5 h5 24.h4 Qa5 25.Qg3 e5 26.Rge1 Be6 27.Nxe6 Qa1+ 28.Kd2 Rc8 29.Nfg7+ Bxg7 30.Qxg7 Qxd1+ 31.Rxd1 Rxc6 32.Qxh8+ Nf8 33.Qxf8+ Kd7 34.Qxf7+ Kc8 35.Qe8+ Kb7 36.Nd8+ Kc7 37.Qxc6+ Kxd8 38.Ke3# 1-0

From Game 1 notes:
B99y: Sicilian: Najdorf in book for 16 full moves (SD actually started calculating a couple of moves before M4, maybe around move 13 or 14). M4-33 was actually OK for 19 moves and had a slight lead ( 0.8 ) after SD 20. Qe3? (Nxe6! starts a good attack and SM says +1.6 lead!). But, M4-33 gets greedy 20. .. Bxa2? (Bd6 is safer) and stupid 21. .. Rd8?????? (0-0-0 moron) GAME OVER! SD is up +5! SD misses 24. b3! (24. h4? sucks) and brilliancy 26. Nd6+!! which is Mate in 6!!!!! But, SD DOES find 29. Nfg7+ which is Mate in 9: and that was that. A very bad mistake at move 21 by M4-33 MHz which hands Star Diamond a quick win; wasn’t even close.

First: This SD win was as outstanding as Game 18 “Game of the Match”; maybe even better! I knew quickly, this was a repeat, just not which one: Game 1 Najdorf SD win or Game 3 Richter-Rauzer draw. Next: This is the SIXTH copy of a previous opening/complete game …so, in essence, about 1/3 of the games are simply repeats; not very representative of the inherent strengths of the programs; This has become very repetitive, monotonous and unenjoyable. Finally, with the last two wins, Star Diamond is starting to show its strong side vs. M4-33. Trailing 10-7, I was wondering, “What is going on”? But, now the match is now 10-9 (and the last two SD wins are the best tactical play of the match). As Black, SD so far has played 2W 2L 5D, so it is likely the match ends 10.5-9.5 for M4-33, but there are small possibilities for 10-10 or 9-11. Actually, it doesn’t matter: with SIX repeats and only a sample size of 20 games, anyway, the match simply proves that the M4-33 and Star Diamond are very closely matched in elo rating; in the “same league”.

Game 20 A NOVELTY! A QGA: SD wins a pawn and uses it to win a Kt+Ps endgame

[Event "SD Mach4-33 match"]
[Black "SD"]
[Date "Mar 19, 2017"]
[Result "0-1"]
[Round "20"]
[White "Mach4-33"]

1.d4 d5 2.c4 dxc4 3.Nf3 Nf6 4.e3 Bg4 5.Bxc4 e6 6.h3 Bh5 7.Nc3 Nbd7 8.O-O Bd6 9.e4 e5 10.dxe5 Nxe5 11.Be2 O-O 12.Nd4 Bxe2 13.Ndxe2 Re8 14.Bg5 h6 15.Bf4 Qd7 16.Qc2 Rad8 17.Rad1 Qe7 18.Qa4 Bc5 19.Qb3 Bb6 20.Nd5 Nxd5 21.Rxd5 Rxd5 22.Qxd5 Ng6 23.Be3 Qxe4 24.Nc3 Qxd5 25.Nxd5 Bxe3 26.Nxe3 Rd8 27.Rc1 c6 28.f3 Nf4 29.Kh2 Rd2 30.Rc2 Rxc2 31.Nxc2 Nd3 32.b4 Kf8 33.Kg3 Ke7 34.f4 Kd6 35.Kf3 c5 36.bxc5+ Nxc5 37.Nd4 Kd5 38.Nf5 Ne6 39.Ne7+ Kc5 40.f5 Ng5+ 41.Kf4 Nh7 42.Ke5 Nf6 43.g3 a5 44.Nc8 b5 45.Ne7 b4 46.Kf4 a4 47.Ke3 a3 48.g4 b3 49.axb3 a2 50.b4+ Kd6 51.Nc8+ Kc7 52.Ne7 a1=Q 53.Kd3 Qd1+ 54.Kc4 Qe2+ 55.Kb3 Qxe7 56.Ka4 Nd5 57.Kb3 Qe3+ 58.Kc2 Nxb4+ 59.Kb2 Kd6 60.h4 Kc5 61.g5 Qd2+ 62.Kb1 Qc2+ 63.Ka1 Qa2# 0-1

D25s: QGA: Janowski-Larsen in book for 12 full moves. QGA: not often seen, but this time it works out for SD. Everything is OK for M4-33, until 19. Qb3? (Nd4) and 20. Nd5? (Qc2) and White will now lose a pawn. Trades (forced) go nuts for the next 6 moves and we are left with a R+N+5P vs. R+N+6P (SD) position at move 27. SM says Black is up -1.2: is it enough for a win? Maybe, because after M4 28. f3? (g3), SD will be able to force a Rook trade at move 29. .. Rd2! Is it enough for a win? Well, looking a lot better in a N+5P vs N+6P position that SM says is -1.9 for Black! BUT: for many moves, Star Diamond wasn’t playing like SM, UNTIL 38. .. Ne6! and later, Knight tour 40-42, Ng5+, Nh7! and Nf6! The Black Knight is now perfectly placed defensively on f6 and Black just has to perfunctorily manage the two to one pawn advantage on the Queenside. When was it a slam dunk? Probably after 44. Nc8? although after SD got the Knight to f6 with 42. .. Nf6!, M4-33 was already finished. A little sloppy on the mate, as SD has Mate in 5 with 56. .. Qe3!, but SD got it three moves later at 63. .. Qa2# Mate. Star Diamond successfully managed to take a one pawn advantage to a win: very professional!

Full time report:

At Half I said:
“Halftime: This match is a slugfest, either win or lose…there were only two draws. M4-33 leads 5W vs. 3W for Star Diamond. However, these two totally distinct programs (Spracklen vs. Kittinger) are probably the closest two machines that I have.”
Well, the second half was different in one way: Four draws. However, the final tally was 10-10 and it is clear that these are definitely the closest matching machines with different programmers, that I own. Star Diamond was behind at Game 17 by 10-7 and I said no way could SD come back. Well SD came back with two crushing attack wins and one well played “pawn advantage” win to end the match in a dead heat! The only notable drawback of the match was the discovery of the limited opening repertoire of Fidelity Mach4. 6 games or 30% were virtual repeats, indicating that to some extent the Mach 4 opening library is limited (ONLY 1. e4 and 1. d4 first moves!!!???) and somewhat “cherry picked” to excel in tournaments and ultimately, elo rating. In contrast, Novag SD contains OVER FOUR times the opening library of Fidelity Mach4, which certainly lowers elo, but at least you get a variety and don’t get bored to death playing the same f#@!ing opening lines over and over and over again (C82o AND B99u were both played THREE times in 20 games thanks to Mach4!!!???). This observation, certainly gives me pause when considering a M4 68060 upgrade; I think the Lang programmed Millennium Genius, GeniusPro or Genius Exclusive are better options right now…maybe Millennium has other upgraded Saitek/Mephisto units on the drawing board. The GAVON (with Stockfish, et al) plus USB board is another option.
Final Note: Despite the sparse opening library the Mach4-33 and -50 are a success story!


Excuse typos. Tomorrow, I Post something completely different.
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Steve B
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Post by Steve B »

Four.nine wrote:
The only notable drawback of the match was the discovery of the limited opening repertoire of Fidelity Mach4. 6 games or 30% were virtual repeats, indicating that to some extent the Mach 4 opening library is limited (ONLY 1. e4 and 1. d4 first moves!!!???).
Well from the result of your match I would hardly call the SD an openings virtuoso
in the 10 games it had white it opened 80% of the time with either 1.e4 or 1.d4( 8 games out of 10)

as to repeats..AKAIK it takes BOTH computers to play an exact repeat game
why all of the blame should rest soley with the Fidelity is a puzzlement..

Anyway...
when I have a chance I shall test my UN modified..NON overclocked ,NON Tuned.. original.. factory released..Mach 4(either Designer or Excel depending on the one you have)
will see what it opens with as white 10 times

ya just never know with these modified computers
god only knows what else the Master Modder futzed around with in your computer
perhaps somehow wacking up the opening book or limiting it in some way

Is your Fidelity the Excel Mach 4 or the Mach 4 in the Designer housing?

Factory Sealed Regards
Steve
Four.nine
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Post by Four.nine »

Hello Steve,

Let's start with your question.

Is your Fidelity the Excel Mach 4 or the Mach 4 in the Designer housing?

What is in the DD housing is the Mach4 program transported "onto" a 68030 processor that is on a PC board that fits into a DD. The Excel and Mach4 are essentially the same thing: The housing is different. The program should be identical. Doesn't matter which flavor you run: try for yourself and see.

God only knows: Nope.
The "upgraded" Master Modder (originally Mad modder: check one of YOUR old posts that referenced his ebay listing), to my knowledge, ONLY modifies the timing code to match the faster clock. Trilobyte can speak for himself, but there is no need to "futz" with the code, if all your trying to do is upgrade to today's state of the art processors.

BOTH computers: Nope.
The opening libraries from my memory are 28K vs. 123 K (total moves, not full lines). If you had two physical libraries next to each other and one had 28 books and the other had 123 books, you would reread the books of the 28 Book library more often.
From memory: take games 1 and 3: SD varied on move 7 to create two distinct Sicilians. The M4 has considerably less variation, because of the smaller "library". When it plays a Sicilian, it looks like it plays one particular line a lot (and deep) and the opponent computer pretty much has to play along.

Virtuoso:
I believe I covered the SD varied openings in one post. I believe you, yourself listed 1. e4 and 1. d4 as the top two in your posts. That's because, those two are the vast majority of the first move. I could look up the percentages in real world play....but I imagine 80 % is pretty close.

Also, I'd be interested to see if you can get c4, Nc3 or Nf3 out of the Fidelity...I couldn't.

Regards

PS need your help: what is the method to cut and paste a previous post or portion thereof, in order to respond to that highlighted post. Thanks
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Steve B
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Post by Steve B »

Four.nine wrote: What is in the DD housing is the Mach4
The Excel and Mach4 are essentially the same thing: The housing is different. The program should be identical. Doesn't matter which flavor you run: try for yourself and see.
Hi 4.9
a simple one word answer here would have sufficed
i know they are the same.. i could do without the lectures ..thanks
have owned both models for almost 30 years
Mach 4 program also appears in the EAG V6 Series

just want to compare exact models....housing and all
Factory released vs modified
Designer it is
Four.nine wrote: The "upgraded" Master Modder (originally Mad modder: check one of YOUR old posts that referenced his ebay listing)
i dont recall calling him that but its certainly possible
since you went through all of that time and trouble searching through hundreds of my old posts.. i think i will reward your efforts by referring to him as the "Mad Master Modder " from this day forward..i like the sound of that
Four.nine wrote: BOTH computers: Nope.
When it plays a Sicilian, it looks like it plays one particular line a lot (and deep) and the opponent computer pretty much has to play along.
BOTH computers:YUP
The Mach 4 is guilty of endless repetitions but the poor defenseless SD 'Pretty much has to play along"
uh huh .. seems like you have a built-in bias against the Mach 4...hmmm
Four.nine wrote: Also, I'd be interested to see if you can get c4, Nc3 or Nf3 out of the Fidelity...I couldn't.
i could..easily actually
i engaged the "all openings" option
here were its 10 opening moves in order played
f4,d4,d4,b3,Nc3,d4,Nf3,d4,c4,b3
no 1.e4's

with the option off(so called tournament book) i could only get e4 and d4
yes yes..i know...you will cry foul as this is not the factory setting considered strongest by the Manufacturer
not the first time a manufacturer got the factory settings wrong
the Tasc R30 is an example that leaps to mind
factory setting is "normal" playing style.. while years of testing and games played by collectors has shown the "active" playing style to be stronger

anyway...from my point of view ....you might actually be handicapping the M4 in light of the fact that the SD does NOT even have a tournament book option..its book is an "all openings" book to begin with...the manual calls it a "normal"book
you can change the book from Active to Passive but not to a tournament book
play another match with the "all openings" option selected ..you will enjoy the games more..which is the real point of all of this

if you do play another match(which i suspect you wont) i predict your jazzed up M4 punishes the SD by a score of 7-3 or at worst 6-4
who knows..you might have even unwittingly stumbled upon a stronger setting for the M4??
Four.nine wrote: PS need your help: what is the method to cut and paste a previous post or portion thereof, in order to respond to that highlighted post. Thanks

select quote the post(upper right corner)
delete any text you dont want to highlight and then reply AFTER the "[/quote]"

Biased Regards
Steve
Four.nine
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Post by Four.nine »

Steve B wrote:
Four.nine wrote: What is in the DD housing is the Mach4
The Excel and Mach4 are essentially the same thing: The housing is different. The program should be identical. Doesn't matter which flavor you run: try for yourself and see.

Hi 4.9
a simple one word answer here would have sufficed
i know they are the same.. i could do without the lectures ..thanks
have owned both models for almost 30 years
Mach 4 program also appears in the EAG V6 Series

just want to compare exact models....housing and all
Factory released vs modified
Designer it is
Four.nine wrote: The "upgraded" Master Modder (originally Mad modder: check one of YOUR old posts that referenced his ebay listing)
i dont recall calling him that but its certainly possible
since you went through all of that time and trouble searching through hundreds of my old posts.. i think i will reward your efforts by referring to him as the "Mad Master Modder " from this day forward..i like the sound of that
Four.nine wrote: BOTH computers: Nope.
When it plays a Sicilian, it looks like it plays one particular line a lot (and deep) and the opponent computer pretty much has to play along.
BOTH computers:YUP
The Mach 4 is guilty of endless repetitions but the poor defenseless SD 'Pretty much has to play along"
uh huh .. seems like you have a built-in bias against the Mach 4...hmmm
Four.nine wrote: Also, I'd be interested to see if you can get c4, Nc3 or Nf3 out of the Fidelity...I couldn't.
i could..easily actually
i engaged the "all openings" option
here were its 10 opening moves in order played
f4,d4,d4,b3,Nc3,d4,Nf3,d4,c4,b3
no 1.e4's

with the option off(so called tournament book) i could only get e4 and d4
yes yes..i know...you will cry foul as this is not the factory setting considered strongest by the Manufacturer
not the first time a manufacturer got the factory settings wrong
the Tasc R30 is an example that leaps to mind
factory setting is "normal" playing style.. while years of testing and games played by collectors has shown the "active" playing style to be stronger

anyway...from my point of view ....you might actually be handicapping the M4 in light of the fact that the SD does NOT even have a tournament book option..its book is an "all openings" book to begin with...the manual calls it a "normal"book
you can change the book from Active to Passive but not to a tournament book
play another match with the "all openings" option selected ..you will enjoy the games more..which is the real point of all of this

if you do play another match(which i suspect you wont) i predict your jazzed up M4 punishes the SD by a score of 7-3 or at worst 6-4
who knows..you might have even unwittingly stumbled upon a stronger setting for the M4??
Four.nine wrote: PS need your help: what is the method to cut and paste a previous post or portion thereof, in order to respond to that highlighted post. Thanks

select quote the post(upper right corner)
delete any text you dont want to highlight and then reply AFTER the "
"

Biased Regards
Steve
Just wanted to share some info on a particular table top chess computer interest of mine. That's all, share: no direspect, no arguments, no lectures. Information, that's all.

I myself felt that I was being lectured when, I was informed that
A. I needed to correct my opening methodology
B. I will "enjoy the games more", if I corrected my flawed methodology


I respectfully..... Resign,

4.9

PS. You were spot on with the quote tip: I was clueless on how to figure that out.
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Dave C
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Post by Dave C »

Four.nine wrote:Final note to Dave: M4-33 is up 10-7. Unfortunately your 10-10 prediction, while admirable, is not looking too good.
Well....turns out that I am a fantastic prognosticator! Spot on! 8)

Excuse me while I drive to the Lotto ticket store.

Soon to be rich....regards,
Dave
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