Radio Shack strength rankings

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paulwise3
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Post by paulwise3 »

Furthermore, I find it hard to believe that the Explorer Pro plays stronger then the Magellan.
2024 Special thread: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=12741
2024 Special results and standings: https://schaakcomputers.nl/paul_w/Tourn ... 25_06.html
If I am mistaken, it must be caused by a horizon effect...
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spacious_mind
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Post by spacious_mind »

Reinfeld wrote:So here I am lecturing about going off-topic, and falling right into the trap again. Ah well.

It's maddening that the dedicated chess community hasn't done more extensive testing with the Radio Shack models as a group. Only Nick has tried it, and his efforts have been noble. The information gap on WIki-Elo continues to be annoying. I think it has to do with a certain snobbery and avoidance of perceived duplication, though I understand the reasoning to a point.
4 Saitek Explorer Pro 66.4 83.00% 2490
5 Mephisto Milano Pro 66.2 82.75% 2483
6 386SX-16 MHz Fritz 1.0 65.7 82.13% 2464
7 Mephisto MM6 65.6 82.00% 2460
8 Radioshack 2250XL Brute Force 65.4 81.75% 2453
9 Mephisto Mystery 32 MHz 64.9 81.13% 2434
10 Mephisto Magellan 64.5 80.63% 2419
10 Mephisto Sentator 64.5 80.63% 2419
12 Mephisto Miami 24 MHz 63.6 79.50% 2385
13 Saitek Brute Force 63.2 79.00% 2370
14 Saitek Cougar 63.1 78.88% 2366
14 Mephisto Mystery 12 MHz 63.1 78.88% 2366
16 Saitek Chess Challenger 63.0 78.75% 2363
16 Saitek GK2100 63.0 78.75% 2363
18 Radioshack Mega 2050X 62.8 78.50% 2355

18 Saitek Travel Champion 2080 62.8 78.50% 2355
20 Saitek Travel Champion 2100 62.7 78.38% 2351
21 Radioshack Chess Master 61.8 77.25% 2318
22 Radioshack 2250XL Selective 61.5 76.88% 2306

22 Saitek Cosmos 61.5 76.88% 2306
22 Saitek Expert Travel Chess 61.5 76.88% 2306
25 Saitek GK2000 61.0 76.25% 2288
25 Mephisto Miami 61.0 76.25% 2288
27 Saitek Barracuda 59.8 74.75% 2243
28 Radioshack 2200X Selective 59.6 74.50% 2235
- R.
Hi Reinfeld,

These tests do show a small difference in certain situations and moves which infers that there might be a slight difference in how the hardware was built or in built-in program settings. Since all these computers were built by Saitek with most of them long after Morsch has stopped working on them, you can deduce that whoever tinkered on them to make them work on each new model may have set some of them up slightly differently or used similar software versions for example Morsch version 1.12 (example) on one and Morsch version 1.13 on another. You may even have had version 1.12 and 1.13 within a same model (randomly picked up from the production table), who knows.

They are all GK2100 clone programs. You will with RS2250 occasionally find a game where it reproduces a Cosmos game as example. But it does not happen all the time.

You know that a lot of tinkering was going on as the bugs that you have with Cosmos/Cougar/Explorer Pro do not occur with GK2100 and TC2100 (the two originals). This alone shows that the tinkerer made some changes that carried over into production.

Perhaps it was some Morsch copy protection that had to be cracked that causes these later bugs (who knows).

Anyway as a result of this although some people might consider them to be clones, (which from a parenting perspective they might be). I do think that each of these programs is different enough to make them stand alone.

Regarding the test, these only show the results of how well they performed within these tests in which in fact RS2250 Brute Force setting performed best. But it does not state that RS2250 is the strongest. You would probably need an average of a 100 tests to be able to show a more accurate conclusion.

It is the same with Schachcomputer.Info rating list. You can take any 10 programs that are lets say within an ELO difference of 50 ELO or 100 ELO even, and stick them in a league where they play each other. I would bet that if your repeated this same league 3 times with same conditions that the final ranking order would be different on all three occasions. It is just how chess programs are, each game is different.

With Morsch, even with Random switched off you will on occasion get a random move (at least it seems that way) therefore it is really hard to pin them down with 100% accuracy every time.

And all this results in discussions that we will keep having for ever :)

Best regards
Nick
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Post by Four.nine »

To Reinfeld,

Sorry to go off topic on your post. I know you want to get back to your RS testing.
I came rather late to table top chess and even later to this forum. I was not involved in any previous 2250 debate. So when I see RS2250 as Forum topic...I jump on it. Why?
Because I am simply appalled by the Schachcomputer rating list showing RS2250 at 2058 Elo (above Cougar/ex pro) and its there, EVEN TO THIS DAY.
I realize contributor Nick has done extensive testing, even showing 2250 Brute Force as much stronger. I believe his results.
However, I believe my games, as well.
When my collection reached about 10 games, I ran a little tournament and could not understand the poor performance of 2 computers: RS2250 and Mephisto Master.
After some internet surfing, I found the answer (It may even have been from this forum): RS default is (weaker) brute and random (and MMC has a power saving "feature" for some levels). I wrote up my own Word doc called "Max strength settings", for just these two computers. I actually found the tournament results:

Tournament Standings
With RS2250XL and Master Chess options set to Maximum Strength Game in 60 minutes

Finish Comp elo Record White Black Points Old Score

1 Atlanta 2271 32-3-5 19.5-.5 15-5 34.5 34
2 Star Diamond 2177 23-9-8 12 15 27 29.5
3 MstrChss 2158 21-9-10 11.5 14.5 26 23
4 Cougar 2066 20-9-11 13.5 12 25.5 26
5 GK2100 2022 14-13-13 10 10.5 20.5 21.5
6 RS2250 2033 14-17-9 10 8.5 18.5 15
7 Mach III 2019 12-16-12 10 8 18 22.0
8 RSMC 1972 14-21-5 10.5 6 16.5 14.5
9 GM29.5 < 1976? 7-20-13 8 5.5 13.5 12.5
10 GM25 < 1976? 6-26-8 5.5 4.5 10 12.0
11 GM27 < 1976? 4-24-12 5 5 10 10.0

Sorry the table got skewed when cut and pasted. However, if you focus on the last two columns for MstrChss and RS (points and old score): THESE results are columns for MAX STRENGTH SETTING and DEFAULT (I replayed ALL MC and RS games). MC went up from 23 to 26 points and RS from 15 to 18.5. The new standings vs Elo (w Max Strength) now made sense and convinced me that for RS, the Selective Search (and random off) settings are strongest, at least in game in one hour (MC needs PS:0 at all times).
Oh : I eventually abandoned game in one hour (for 1 min/move) because too many games were decided by frantic panic moves when computers were reaching the one hour cutoff.

I also agree that 2250 calculates different (yes, program IS different) than GK2100...but not necessarily better, just different. In fact in that above tournament, RS still finished below GK2100 (and WELL below) Cougar.

So, Reinfeld, get back to YOUR thread (not mine) and your tournament...I am done (kinda) with my diatribe.

Final notes:
1. I will probably take up your ExPro-cougar challenge in a new thread..sometime
2. I have seen games where RS Master plays the exact same moves as a Turbo Advanced Trainer. If not identical, then they are very close (of course, both GK2000 variants).
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Post by Four.nine »

Found that I do have some ExPro vs Cougar data;
Ran a tournament years ago, with 3 “equally” seeded groups.
ExPro finished 2.5 points higher in its “group” (15-5 vs 12.5-7.5), so some evidence supporting ExPro is stronger than Cougar. see Below:

DIVISION 1 Tournament Final Results table (1 MIN/move)

Chess Computer Score Aktivschach elo

1 Mephisto Master 2 15.5 - 4.5 2163
2 Explorer Pro 15-5 2049
3 Mach III 13.5-6.5 2039
4 Mephisto Master 1 12.5-7.5 2163
5 Cougar 12.5-7.5 2049
6 Centurion 12-8 2021
7 RS2250XL 1 12-8 2061
8 2250XL #3 10.5-9.5 2061
9 2250XL #2 10-10 2061
10 GK 2100 10-10 2021
11 Chess Chall1 9-11 2021
12 CC2 8.5-11.5 2021
13 GK2000 8.5-11.5 1974
14 TAT 8.5-11.5 ~1947?
15 GM29.5 MHz 7.5-12.5 >1976?
16 Grandmaster 24 MHz 6-14 1976
17 RS Chess Master (1&2) 4.5-15.5 <1974 ??
18 Fidelity 12B 8MHz 4-16 ~1930-1940
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paulwise3
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Post by paulwise3 »

Four.nine wrote: After some internet surfing, I found the answer (It may even have been from this forum): RS default is (weaker) brute and random (and MMC has a power saving "feature" for some levels). I wrote up my own Word doc called "Max strength settings", for just these two computers.
Right, you have to be very careful choosing the correct strength setting for the MMC!
Powersave should be set at PS:0, which is NOT the default. And beware, if you change the level-setting afterwards, you should also check that it still has the value of PS:0!!
So that could well be the cause of underestimating the Master Chess. See the wiki, in which it has about 100 elo-points more then the Cougar.

Powersave bug regards,
Paul
2024 Special thread: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=12741
2024 Special results and standings: https://schaakcomputers.nl/paul_w/Tourn ... 25_06.html
If I am mistaken, it must be caused by a horizon effect...
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spacious_mind
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Post by spacious_mind »

paulwise3 wrote:
Four.nine wrote: After some internet surfing, I found the answer (It may even have been from this forum): RS default is (weaker) brute and random (and MMC has a power saving "feature" for some levels). I wrote up my own Word doc called "Max strength settings", for just these two computers.
Right, you have to be very careful choosing the correct strength setting for the MMC!
Powersave should be set at PS:0, which is NOT the default. And beware, if you change the level-setting afterwards, you should also check that it still has the value of PS:0!!
So that could well be the cause of underestimating the Master Chess. See the wiki, in which it has about 100 elo-points more then the Cougar.

Powersave bug regards,
Paul
Hi Paul,

You have to be sure about which Master Chess is being discussed. Reinfeld posted about Radio Shack computers and not Saitek. Therefore part of these posts is discussing and comparing a wrong Master Chess.

The discussion is around RS2250XL, RS2200 and RS Master Chess (totally different computer.

I don't think anyone is doubting that Saitek Master Chess related to Mephisto Milano Pro is stronger.

Regards
Nick
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Post by Reinfeld »

Nick said:
The discussion is around RS2250XL, RS2200 and RS Master Chess (totally different computer.)
That's it, right there. I don't own RS Master, and it seems to be the least known of the upper-level RS models. 2250XL has gotten more attention because of its quirkiness.

To Four.nine,

The ExPro stats are interesting, seemingly supporting the idea of greater strength, for whatever reason. I am no programmer, so my eyes glaze over quickly when smarter people discuss processing power.

As for diverting the thread, it's no biggie. I'm addicted to the hobby, and digression is the stuff of life.

I did have one stray observation that I'd forgotten, so here goes:

The clone-iest clones I know are GK 2100 and Mephisto Chess Challenger. Both 8-bit, both 10mhz. They play the same moves in game after game. The only difference is the alleged opening book:

GK 2100: 30,000
Challenger: 6,000

That factor doesn't seem to affect the play at all, which strikes me as an interesting point about the influence/size of opening books on performance.

- R.
"You have, let us say, a promising politician, a rising artist that you wish to destroy. Dagger or bomb are archaic and unreliable - but teach him, inoculate him with chess."
– H.G. Wells
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paulwise3
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Post by paulwise3 »

spacious_mind wrote: Hi Paul,

You have to be sure about which Master Chess is being discussed. Reinfeld posted about Radio Shack computers and not Saitek. Therefore part of these posts is discussing and comparing a wrong Master Chess.

The discussion is around RS2250XL, RS2200 and RS Master Chess (totally different computer.

I don't think anyone is doubting that Saitek Master Chess related to Mephisto Milano Pro is stronger.

Regards
Hi Nick,

Thanx for explaining, but Four.nine also spoke of the MMC, so I thought it was good to explain about the PS:2 bug.

I just checked your page about the RS Chess Master, interesting specs.
If it is correct that it has 16 kb ROM, then it can only be some sort of clone of the GK 2000. And with 16 Mhz instead of 10 also a little stronger.

Regards, Paul
2024 Special thread: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=12741
2024 Special results and standings: https://schaakcomputers.nl/paul_w/Tourn ... 25_06.html
If I am mistaken, it must be caused by a horizon effect...
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paulwise3
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Post by paulwise3 »

Reinfeld wrote:
I did have one stray observation that I'd forgotten, so here goes:

The clone-iest clones I know are GK 2100 and Mephisto Chess Challenger. Both 8-bit, both 10mhz. They play the same moves in game after game. The only difference is the alleged opening book:

GK 2100: 30,000
Challenger: 6,000

That factor doesn't seem to affect the play at all, which strikes me as an interesting point about the influence/size of opening books on performance.
Hi Reinfeld,

Yes, and the for the Saitek Centurion goes exactly the same as the Challenger. Both needed room for a number of testgames, so the opening book had to be smaller to fit it all in the same memory...

I had plans to study some of those testgames, but never did it. I wonder how many people really used them!?

Study regards,
Paul
2024 Special thread: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=12741
2024 Special results and standings: https://schaakcomputers.nl/paul_w/Tourn ... 25_06.html
If I am mistaken, it must be caused by a horizon effect...
CompDad
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Post by CompDad »

paulwise3 wrote:
spacious_mind wrote: Hi Paul,

You have to be sure about which Master Chess is being discussed. Reinfeld posted about Radio Shack computers and not Saitek. Therefore part of these posts is discussing and comparing a wrong Master Chess.

The discussion is around RS2250XL, RS2200 and RS Master Chess (totally different computer.

I don't think anyone is doubting that Saitek Master Chess related to Mephisto Milano Pro is stronger.

Regards
Hi Nick,

Thanx for explaining, but Four.nine also spoke of the MMC, so I thought it was good to explain about the PS:2 bug.

I just checked your page about the RS Chess Master, interesting specs.
If it is correct that it has 16 kb ROM, then it can only be some sort of clone of the GK 2000. And with 16 Mhz instead of 10 also a little stronger.

Regards, Paul
Actually, RS Chess Master is 10 Mhz, it was a typo from Nick. There is an old thread in that this was discussed.

Cheers
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paulwise3
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Post by paulwise3 »

Today my most recent acquired chess computer arrived: the RS 2250 XL.
Nice looking, with the same larger playing field size as the Saitek Blitz: 25 x 25 cm, which makes playing more comfortable.
Of course I checked for the opening book bug and yes, at tournament level it started computing right away... :-(

One other thing I would like to share: it seems that the Random option is On by default, as opposed to most other computers of this strength. Hopefully those who tested it's strength or played matches with it were aware of this "feature" :-P

Random regards,
Paul
2024 Special thread: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=12741
2024 Special results and standings: https://schaakcomputers.nl/paul_w/Tourn ... 25_06.html
If I am mistaken, it must be caused by a horizon effect...
Four.nine
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Post by Four.nine »

paulwise3 wrote:Today my most recent acquired chess computer arrived: the RS 2250 XL.
Nice looking, with the same larger playing field size as the Saitek Blitz: 25 x 25 cm, which makes playing more comfortable.
Of course I checked for the opening book bug and yes, at tournament level it started computing right away... :-(

One other thing I would like to share: it seems that the Random option is On by default, as opposed to most other computers of this strength. Hopefully those who tested it's strength or played matches with it were aware of this "feature" :-P

Random regards,
Paul
Correct on all counts:
Books: Only Full and none work
Option Defaults are: Brute and Random

See my previous post where I couldn't explain the weak performance of 2250 (and MMC) in a tournament I ran .....until I chose "Max Strength" options

Looks like you, too, are ready to show some games.
I've always maintained the 10 MHz 2250 is basically a GK2100 clone (with some tweaks), no way a Cougar or ExPro.
Let's see what you think.
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paulwise3
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Post by paulwise3 »

Four.nine wrote: Looks like you, too, are ready to show some games.
I've always maintained the 10 MHz 2250 is basically a GK2100 clone (with some tweaks), no way a Cougar or ExPro.
Let's see what you think.
I do agree with you, there must be some misunderstanding in the german wiki community. Or the rating games it played there were better then expected, maybe by chance. I will look that up.
There is also an objective test: if you look at the BT-2630 test results, they are all slower then that of the Cougar in about a factor that is caused by its slower computing speed, and very close to that of the GK2100 / MM VI!
See https://www.schach-computer.info/wiki/i ... le=BT-2630

Testing regards,
Paul
2024 Special thread: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=12741
2024 Special results and standings: https://schaakcomputers.nl/paul_w/Tourn ... 25_06.html
If I am mistaken, it must be caused by a horizon effect...
Four.nine
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Post by Four.nine »

paulwise3 wrote:
Four.nine wrote: Looks like you, too, are ready to show some games.
I've always maintained the 10 MHz 2250 is basically a GK2100 clone (with some tweaks), no way a Cougar or ExPro.
Let's see what you think.
I do agree with you, there must be some misunderstanding in the german wiki community. Or the rating games it played there were better then expected, maybe by chance. I will look that up.
There is also an objective test: if you look at the BT-2630 test results, they are all slower then that of the Cougar in about a factor that is caused by its slower computing speed, and very close to that of the GK2100 / MM VI!
See https://www.schach-computer.info/wiki/i ... le=BT-2630

Testing regards,
Paul
Good post...and informative link.
Like I’ve said: GK2100 clone and nothing more
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Post by Cyberchess »

4 Saitek Explorer Pro 66.4 83.00% 2490
5 Mephisto Milano Pro 66.2 82.75% 2483
6 386SX-16 MHz Fritz 1.0 65.7 82.13% 2464
7 Mephisto MM6 65.6 82.00% 2460
8 Radioshack 2250XL Brute Force 65.4 81.75% 2453
9 Mephisto Mystery 32 MHz 64.9 81.13% 2434
10 Mephisto Magellan 64.5 80.63% 2419
10 Mephisto Sentator 64.5 80.63% 2419
12 Mephisto Miami 24 MHz 63.6 79.50% 2385
13 Saitek Brute Force 63.2 79.00% 2370
14 Saitek Cougar 63.1 78.88% 2366
15 Mephisto Mystery 12 MHz 63.1 78.88% 2366
16 Saitek Chess Challenger 63.0 78.75% 2363
17 Saitek GK2100 63.0 78.75% 2363
18 Radioshack Mega 2050X 62.8 78.50% 2355

18 Saitek Travel Champion 2080 62.8 78.50% 2355
20 Saitek Travel Champion 2100 62.7 78.38% 2351
21 Radioshack Chess Master 61.8 77.25% 2318
22 Radioshack 2250XL Selective 61.5 76.88% 2306

23 Saitek Cosmos 61.5 76.88% 2306
24 Saitek Expert Travel Chess 61.5 76.88% 2306
25 Saitek GK2000 61.0 76.25% 2288
25 Saitek GK2000 61.0 76.25% 2288
25 Mephisto Miami 61.0 76.25% 2288
27 Saitek Barracuda 59.8 74.75% 2243
28 Radioshack 2200X Selective 59.6 74.50% 2235

"Regarding the test, these only show the results of how well they performed within these tests in which in fact RS2250 Brute Force setting performed best. But it does not state that RS2250 is the strongest. You would probably need an average of a 100 tests to be able to show a more accurate conclusion."

Nick makes an important point here that should have printed in boldface along with this Wiki post. These ratings are only relative to the other machines that were tested, and would be severely inflated even on the substantially higher USCF rating scale. This Wiki could be potentially misleading to a consumer of said units.

Overrated and Under Tested Regards,
John
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