ICT 9 - Leiden 2009 - Hiarcs Wins!

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Soren Riis
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Post by Soren Riis »

Ted Summers wrote:
This is not about odds, it's about the same rules being applied to everyone. By your definition then there is already a handicap since all engines do not use the same algorithms. As I said before, Rybka Cluster is not being Handicaped, it is not being allowed to play. I think Uri Blass said it best.
Uri Blass wrote:The word handicap is not about handicapping rybka but about reducing the level of the tournament.
As an extreme example, imagine that the rules for 100 meter sprint was changed so contestant were to crawl instead of run. The 100 meter world champion Usain Bolt's who has the world record of 9.69 seconds would be handicapped in a number of different ways. His performance would go down (this is one sense in which restricting the hardware to 8 cores will handicap a number of participants). But Usain Bolt's would almost certainly also be handicapped in another sense since his odds of winning
in the crawling race would be lower as the odds he had of winning the sprint.

The crawling race might be fair since all have to crawl, but 100 meter crawl its not 100 meter sprint. However much word-gymnastics you make, Usain Bolt would be handicapped if he was not allowed to run freely.
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Steve B
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Post by Steve B »

turbojuice1122 wrote:
One could actually say that blocking teams using more than 8 cores, but allowing those using 16 threads, is a handicap in the true sense of the word: it favors teams that are able to put together systems that take advantage of hyperthreading technology to "bend the rules".
I remember when this whole debate started..Rybka(and other engines) kept entering events with multiple cores and so there was a discussion about trying to have an event with a "core limit" so as to get a fairer competition and perhaps more interesting competition
one advantage of the core limitation was the laudable goal to crown a World Champion that was running on hardware that could be purchased by most anyone(and not for a tremendous amount of money)
which hopefully would INCREASE the general public's interest in our rather arcane niche hobby

i dont think the idea was to "bend the rules " by using hyper-threading
to the uninitiated (as i readily admit i am) and for the general knowledge of members here not so knowledgeable about cutting edge computer configurations ..does hyper-threading in effect "Skirt around " the core limitation rule?

perhaps those involved in the use of Hyper-threading could explain how it does not breach the "Spirit" of the Core Limit rule in addition to not violating the "Letter "of the rule

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Steve
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Harvey Williamson
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Post by Harvey Williamson »

David Levy wrote:
In order to clarify the rule in response to a question from one contestant, we will use the information in a computer manufacturer's data sheet to determine the number of cores in the computer.

Also please note that hyperthreading will be allowed.
Soren Riis
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Post by Soren Riis »

perhaps those involved in the use of Hyper-threading could explain how it does not breach the "Spirit" of the Core Limit rule in addition to not violating the "Letter "of the rule
Very simple: The core limit rule is a restriction on hardware while the use of hyper treading is essentially a software issue. Since hyper treading has nothing to do with the hardware restrictions it does not breach the spirit of the rule. Anyway it was explicitly stated that hyper threading is allowed.
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turbojuice1122
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Post by turbojuice1122 »

I agree with all of the above--I was not suggesting anything untoward (hence my use of quotations around the phrase). Nonetheless, processors that use hyperthreading are hardware, so "successfully" making use of such things is successfully using the hardware that is available. (Of course, the "common customer", whatever that is, doesn't have access to dual Nehalam quads.) It thus seems unfair (in the context of the correct use of the word "handicap") that they allow use of one type of hardware that is favorable to some teams and not favorable to others, while not allowing the use of other types of hardware that are favorable to different teams. Naturally, they are just complicating things with this arbitrary 8-core limit.
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Harvey Williamson
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Post by Harvey Williamson »

I looked back on the Rybka forum to see what the fanboys were saying when others had Clusters and Rybka did not. Here is 1 post from a, now, supporter of Cluster rybka:

By M ANSARI (****) [kw] Date 2007-06-12 07:43
I think such an engine would be very interesting ... but certainly it shouldn't be able to compete in a WCCC tournament. I mean it can use a cluster of computers form probably all over the world (if I understand how it works correctly). That would be similar to Folding or to SETI programs ... I am just trying to fathom the logistical effort required to make sure that none of these remote pieces of the cluster are using Hiarcs, Rybka, Junior, Shredder etc...

It just doesn't seem right.
And for those that think I only came out against Clusters when Rybka got one - my posts in the thread, from 2007, will prove that is false.
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turbojuice1122
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Post by turbojuice1122 »

I don't think that Majd's post is directly relevant to the points being made in this discussion because there, one would be talking about hardware that is not actually owned by the team. Nonetheless, I think that such an endeavor would be very interesting, and I disagree with his wish to keep such a thing out of the WCCC.
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Post by Harvey Williamson »

turbojuice1122 wrote:I don't think that Majd's post is directly relevant to the points being made in this discussion because there, one would be talking about hardware that is not actually owned by the team. Nonetheless, I think that such an endeavor would be very interesting, and I disagree with his wish to keep such a thing out of the WCCC.
So therefore the Sjeng Cluster should not be allowd as they used a Suj cluster and will not say what was in the cluster? If Clusters are allowed I agree with you that they should be open and above board.

I also do not question that the details of the Rybka cluster that we have been given are totally correct.
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Post by Harvey Williamson »

I made this post in 2007 i liked it then I like it now:
I think the anoraks who frequent these forums need to decide if they want a WCCC that only people here will understand and want to compete in or one that might just be able to be publicised to a new audience.
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Harvey Williamson
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Post by Harvey Williamson »

Getting back to Leiden which is what this thread is supposed to be about. It now looks like the Cluster match will not be happening. I have been invited to stay with Hans van der Zijden, from the Rybka team, an offer I have accepted. Hans may play with his own program Gadget in the users tournament. He may also be operating Joker for a few games that H.G is not available to play.

Continuing the Pamplona tradition - I have arranged to have Dinner with the Chairman of the Dutch CSVN on Saturday night, Cock de Gorter. Although Leiden can not offer the 3 star experience I had with Amir Ban in Spain I have found us a nice 1 star in Leiden!
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turbojuice1122
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Post by turbojuice1122 »

Harvey Williamson wrote:
turbojuice1122 wrote:I don't think that Majd's post is directly relevant to the points being made in this discussion because there, one would be talking about hardware that is not actually owned by the team. Nonetheless, I think that such an endeavor would be very interesting, and I disagree with his wish to keep such a thing out of the WCCC.
So therefore the Sjeng Cluster should not be allowd as they used a Suj cluster and will not say what was in the cluster? If Clusters are allowed I agree with you that they should be open and above board.

I also do not question that the details of the Rybka cluster that we have been given are totally correct.
I dunno--the rules make no statement of this as far as I know, and to me, it really doesn't matter, since from the "fan viewpoint", I would want to see both such entities (the Sjeng cluster and any sort of "SETI-at-home-like cluster") compete at the highest level and in a setting more conducive to public news than the Chessbase forum.
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Post by Graham Banks »

Steve B wrote: i wonder why Rybka is skipping this years event?
Leiden is one of the Premiere CC events in the yearly tournament calendar
These tournaments deserve as much support as possible, even if some don't agree with hardware restrictions that may be in place.
We used to moan about well known engines like Fritz failing to enter. Let's hope that we don't have to add others to such a list. :cry:
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Fernando
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Post by Fernando »

Steve B wrote:
Harvey Williamson wrote:Despite only a small number of entries. I think mainly due to the dates being so close to the WCCC in Pamplona this tournament will go ahead. As always there is a Users tournament alongside the main event. This year the Computers used will have a maximum ELO of 1700. I am sure Steve can let us know what might fit into this category. One interesting entrant will be the The Rybka Operator Hans van der Zijden with his own program called 'Gadget'
aaah yes...the "Users" section of the Leiden tournament
better known as the Gebroikers section (in Dutch)
there are very many dedicated computers with an ELO of <1700 so there is no telling which computers will show up

Sadly ..only a few weeks ago a great Dutch collector of the old computers
...Tom Luif...passed away...i have heard rumors that perhaps this years event might pay tribute to Tom..not certain about that.. but it was mentioned to me as a possibility by another collector

Toms web site..

http://www.xs4all.nl/~tluif/chescom/Eng ... #collectie

Solemn Regards
Steve

So that awesome site will disappear?????
In tears regards
fern
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Steve B
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Post by Steve B »

Fernando wrote:
So that awesome site will disappear?????
In tears regards
fern
it seems everything related to the old chess computers is disappearing now
the companies(Saitek -Novag) and sadly now even the collectors
our days are numbered

Fading Away Quietly Into The Night Regards
Steve
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Fernando
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Post by Fernando »

Steve B wrote:
Fernando wrote:
So that awesome site will disappear?????
In tears regards
fern
it seems everything related to the old chess computers is disappearing now
the companies(Saitek -Novag) and sadly now even the collectors
our days are numbered

Fading Away Quietly Into The Night Regards
Steve
Come on, Steve, we are still young and kicking! You are by now the guy keeping the flame all around the globe. Let me humbly march at your site until the black lady with a sickle take us to better life


Homero send his regards
fern
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