CCC Forum vs Hiarcs Headbangers Game Notice

[JEB_Tucson]

Hi Hiarcs Forum Members

The Hiarcs Headbangers will be sending a team game challenge to the CCC forum today to play a friendly game of chess. The tentative game start date is 25 July 2009. A copy of this challenge will be posted here in this forum for your info.
All Hiarcs Forum members are invited to join the Hiarcs Headbangers team. We would like to get as large a team as possible. The game should be a lot of fun.

If you are interested in joining, and we hope that you are, you can apply at Usergroups to join the Hiarcs Headbangers. If the apply option is not available then PM me, JEB_Tucson, and I will add you to the team.

All that is required of a Headbanger team member is to look at the position and vote for the move that you honestly think is best. That seems to be a winning formula. Certainly, many Headbangers post discussion and/or analysis, so you will have lots to consider. If you are so inclined to add to the discussion/analysis, that's even better.

So, I hope to see as many of you as possible on the Hiarcs Headbangers side of the board come 25 July. I know you will find the game most enjoyable.

Sincerely
James

[JEB_Tucson]

Our Forum challenge was just posted on the CCC Forum. Here is a copy.

**************************************************
Hello CCC Members

My name is James Biggers, ID: JEB_Tucson, and I am the captain of the HIARCS Forum's chess team, the HIARCS Headbangers. We would like to challenge the CCC Forum members to play a friendly game of team chess.

We have been playing these team games for a numbers of years now and find that they are a lot of fun. Additionally, many have commented that due to the level of the game play, some new Chess opening theory has been developed. Certainly we have found errors in many books. These games tend to be quite different due to the nature of team play, the 48 hour time control, varied engine usage, and the fact that it's not engine vs engine but people vs people getting assistance from engines and anything else that they desire. Those that enjoy engine vs engine blitz games may not find this type of a game very interesting, but, you never know. The Hiarcs Headbangers are made up of rookies to GMs, National Champions and Freestyle Champions. Engine usage is extremely varied, for example, I use Hiarcs, Fritz, and Crafty. Well, enough intro.

So, let's see the extent that the CCC grasps the game of Chess. Only with perfect play will you be able to even draw against the Headbangers. Do you accept our challenge?

The proposed game rules are:

Game Rules:
1. CCC + engines vs HIARCS Headbangers + engines.
2. CCC picks their color for first game. If both Teams agree to a second game then the Team colors are reversed.
3. Clock starts with first move on 25 July 2009 GMT.
4. 48 hour strict time control. The team that misses their time control will forfeit the game unless both sides agree to continue play. Unused time is lost. Time does not accumulate.
5. All team moves are posted on the HIARCS Forum: Tournament Results & Games voting thread by the Team Captains. The Hiarcs server time indicated on the move post is the opponents clock start time.
6. Team Captains:
Hiarcs Headbangers Captains: JEB_Tucson / NATIONAL12
CCC Forum Captains: TBD / alternate TBD
7. No player can be a member of both Teams at the same time and posting votes in both Team voting threads is punishable by death.

If you do accept the challenge, I need to know your Captain's ID's. These will be the ID's used when you cast the vote for your team and, if possible, should be the same ID you use here in the CCC Forum.

The URL used by the captains for the official game moves is:
http://hiarcs.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=2486

If modifications to the Game Rules need to be made, a CCC Team Captain should contact either myself or Steve B. Steve is acting as a neutral party to insure that both Teams behave themselves and that the game is conducted in an ethical manner.

Sincerely
James
*****************************************************

[Christopher Conkie]

Where will we see your voting process? As it stands it seems your Headbangers forum is closed. to us.

In the CCC we will do everything transparently.

Christopher

[Steve B]

Where will we see your voting process? As it stands it seems your Headbangers forum is closed. to us.

In the CCC we will do everything transparently.

Christopher

let me answer that Chris
Harvey offered to set up a secret thread here in Hiarcs for the CCC players
also if you look in the CCC mod forum i discussed the idea of having Sam set up a similar thread in the CCC (and i mentioned that the Hteam would have a secret thread)
I didnt think either idea would work for the first time that the CCC was playing together as a team
as it stands now we are having trouble getting players for the team ,so i thought that making them have to join secret threads to play would only result in less players
perhaps in future games when players are used to the process we can set up secret threads and the players will take the extra steps necessary to play

Harvey and the rest of the Hteam will be on the Honor system not to look at the voting threads in the CTF
The CCC cant really make the same promise because you know as well as i do Chris that there are a few members on the CCC that would like nothing better then to hijack the game by peeking at the Hiarcs teams analysis and posting it everywhere
i can Pm you with a few names right now but i guess you can figure out who they might be
so the Hteam has the secret thread and the CCC doesn't
if you think we ought to ask Sam to create one on the CCC thats perfectly OK with me but in that case i think only you and Henrik will be playing


Exhausted from trying to get this off the ground regards
Steve

[Harvey Williamson]

Where will we see your voting process? As it stands it seems your Headbangers forum is closed. to us.

In the CCC we will do everything transparently.

Christopher

let me answer that Chris
Harvey offered to set up a secret thread here in Hiarcs for the CCC players
also if you look in the CCC mod forum i discussed the idea of having Sam set up a similar thread in the CCC (and i mentioned that the Hteam would have a secret thread)
I didnt think either idea would work for the first time that the CCC was playing together as a team
as it stands now we are having trouble getting players for the team ,so i thought that making them have to join secret threads to play would only result in less players
perhaps in future games when players are used to the process we can set up secret threads and the players will take the extra steps necessary to play

Harvey and the rest of the Hteam will be on the Honor system not to look at the voting threads in the CTF
The CCC cant really make the same promise because you know as well as i do Chris that there are a few members on the CCC that would like nothing better then to hijack the game by peeking at the Hiarcs teams analysis and posting it everywhere
i can Pm you with a few names right now but i guess you can figure out who they might be
so the Hteam has the secret thread and the CCC doesn't
if you think we ought to ask Sam to create one on the CCC thats perfectly OK with me but in that case i think only you and Henrik will be playing


Exhausted from trying to get this off the ground regards
Steve

Steve,

You may be right. But perhaps providing one sub-forum for all the team to come together in may also be a good idea. Chris could control the Usergroup to allow members in. I am sure Sam could set it up - if not as offered before I can make a hidden sub forum here which Chris can run.

The one thing that this would help create is a place where CCC members can say yes I want to join the team - there does not seem to be a place at the moment - the forum could be open until the game starts!?

Just a thought regards,
Harvey

[Steve B]

Steve,

You may be right. But perhaps providing one sub-forum for all the team to come together in may also be a good idea. Chris could control the Usergroup to allow members in. I am sure Sam could set it up - if not as offered before I can make a hidden sub forum here which Chris can run.

Just a thought regards,
Harvey

Actually i kinda like the idea that ALL CCC members can follow the game even if they dont vote on the team
i imagine for many members the whole concept of Correspondence play is totally a new aspect of chess for them
and as i mentioned earlier we are scrapping for players now as it is ..let alone having to join sub-groups
however..Chris and Henrik are the official team Captains now for the CCC/CTF Team and i leave it to their decision if they would like to have Sam set up a secret forum

Their Call Now Regards
Steve

[Harvey Williamson]

Steve,

You may be right. But perhaps providing one sub-forum for all the team to come together in may also be a good idea. Chris could control the Usergroup to allow members in. I am sure Sam could set it up - if not as offered before I can make a hidden sub forum here which Chris can run.

Just a thought regards,
Harvey

Actually i kinda like the idea that ALL CCC members can follow the game even if they dont vote on the team
i imagine for many members the whole concept of Correspondence play is totally a new aspect of chess for them
and as i mentioned earlier we are scrapping for players now as it is ..let alone having to join sub-groups
however..Chris and Henrik are the official team Captains now for the CCC/CTF Team and i leave it to their decision if they would like to have Sam set up a secret forum

Their Call Now Regards
Steve

I understand your point but at the moment as there is no specific place to go or register - it is totally unknown how many or who will vote on move 1. We have always found that many will vote during the opening but that as soon as the team is out of book - that is when you find out who your hard core players are. If players are unregistered it is much easier to drift away at this stage. We have always used the separate forum method here and people have never complained that they do not know how to join a usergroup or send a PM to the Captain

[Christopher Conkie]

Steve,

You may be right. But perhaps providing one sub-forum for all the team to come together in may also be a good idea. Chris could control the Usergroup to allow members in. I am sure Sam could set it up - if not as offered before I can make a hidden sub forum here which Chris can run.

Just a thought regards,
Harvey

Actually i kinda like the idea that ALL CCC members can follow the game even if they dont vote on the team
i imagine for many members the whole concept of Correspondence play is totally a new aspect of chess for them
and as i mentioned earlier we are scrapping for players now as it is ..let alone having to join sub-groups
however..Chris and Henrik are the official team Captains now for the CCC/CTF Team and i leave it to their decision if they would like to have Sam set up a secret forum

Their Call Now Regards
Steve

I understand your point but at the moment as there is no specific place to go or register - it is totally unknown how many or who will vote on move 1. We have always found that many will vote during the opening but that as soon as the team is out of book - that is when you find out who your hard core players are. If players are unregistered it is much easier to drift away at this stage. We have always used the separate forum method here and people have never complained that they do not know how to join a usergroup or send a PM to the Captain

We have made our own forum. We do not understand why yours is hidden. We see no reason for it.

[Christopher Conkie]

Steve,

You may be right. But perhaps providing one sub-forum for all the team to come together in may also be a good idea. Chris could control the Usergroup to allow members in. I am sure Sam could set it up - if not as offered before I can make a hidden sub forum here which Chris can run.

Just a thought regards,
Harvey

Actually i kinda like the idea that ALL CCC members can follow the game even if they dont vote on the team
i imagine for many members the whole concept of Correspondence play is totally a new aspect of chess for them
and as i mentioned earlier we are scrapping for players now as it is ..let alone having to join sub-groups
however..Chris and Henrik are the official team Captains now for the CCC/CTF Team and i leave it to their decision if they would like to have Sam set up a secret forum

Their Call Now Regards
Steve

I understand your point but at the moment as there is no specific place to go or register - it is totally unknown how many or who will vote on move 1. We have always found that many will vote during the opening but that as soon as the team is out of book - that is when you find out who your hard core players are. If players are unregistered it is much easier to drift away at this stage. We have always used the separate forum method here and people have never complained that they do not know how to join a usergroup or send a PM to the Captain

We have made our own forum. We do not understand why yours is hidden. We see no reason for it.

We are ready for the "game".

Better get your trolls ready.

[turbojuice1122]

There is a major discussion in this thread concerning the upcoming game, if there indeed will be one. There are several major issues involved, particularly that of the neutral observer, that of names being shared, and that of access to the hidden threads.

I was the captain of the Rybka Warriors during our matches with the Hiarcs Headbangers, and I am currently a member of the Hiarcs Headbangers (though obviously that will change if there is another match against the Rybka Forum, since I am a Rybka guy through and through ). What I see so far is that both parties are in agreement on having a neutral observer, but in disagreement on what the observer should be allowed to do.

First, I must make some points on the necessity of a neutral observer. First, there were some points during the match between the Rybka Warriors and the Hiarcs Headbangers (affectionately called "Hamsters" by the Warriors) where we needed a neutral party to observe the match and act as an arbitrator during disagreements. This is a general necessary feature of such matches between different teams of players. In the case of this match, the neutral observer was Graham Banks, and he performed his job well and made judgments fairly (even if I might have disagreed on occasion at the time ). Such issues can readily be observed from searching through the old threads in that subforum, as well as requesting access from a Rybka moderator to the appropriate threads in the Rybka Forum.

Generally speaking, you can still have access to the subforum without having access to particular threads at a particular time. This takes away the worry about not being able to see the analysis after the game has been played--after the games are played, other people may be allowed to see the analysis. This does not, however, take away the worry about potential problems that might be caused by "moles" or saboteurs.

The captain of the CCC/CTF team, Christopher, has mentioned the need for names of team members to be shared between the teams. First, this creates a problem if it is done openly because there are some people, like myself, who prefer not to have their real names and their aliases appear on the same web page, ready to be searched through Google. Second, this doesn't really solve the problem because only honest people are going to give their real names in the first place, and we're not worried about such people. The people who are out to cause problems will make up different names (and potentially different e-mail accounts) and thus thwart that system. Nonetheless, if people are comfortable with it, I see no problem with privately sending identification of names with handles between the captains of the teams, though these captains must agree explicitly not to share these names with anyone if they are different from the titles of the aliases.

The final and most significant point of discussion concerns the role of the neutral observer. As already mentioned, a neutral observer is necessary in the first place to mediate points of contention. Second, a neutral observer is necessary to try to thwart potential moles and saboteurs before the games become too badly damaged. In order to do this, part of the observer's job is to moderate the secret threads of each team. If the wording, language, exact numbers in analysis, etc. are the same, then the moderator can see this fairly readily. Some people might argue that this can be done after the game by giving everyone access to the secret threads at that point, but this is wrong for two main reasons. First, after the game, people are reading a very long thread all at once. Second, people don't remember by that point who posted what in their own forum. Thus, a neutral observer is required to be able to do this at the time that posts are being made. The presence of a neutral observer was agreed to by both parties at the start of the match, though the CCC/CTF Team captain, Christopher, is now arguing against the role of the observer as a secret thread moderator, saying that it was not stated explicitly in the match terms. While he is semantically correct at first glance, it is not much of a mental leap to realize that a neutral observer, in order to be able to fulfill the role of the title, MUST be able to see the secret threads of both teams. We had saboteurs in the match between the Hiarcs Headbangers and the Rybka Warriors. These were found, eliminated from the team, and all was fine before any damage was done. The neutral observer must be able to spot the first signs of damage before things become bad. In order to do this, he must have access to all discussion during the time that it is being made. If this cannot be done, I don't see any way for the match to be able to take place, though since I am not the captain of either team, that is not my judgment to make.

[Christopher Conkie]

There is a major discussion in this thread concerning the upcoming game, if there indeed will be one. There are several major issues involved, particularly that of the neutral observer, that of names being shared, and that of access to the hidden threads.

I was the captain of the Rybka Warriors during our matches with the Hiarcs Headbangers, and I am currently a member of the Hiarcs Headbangers (though obviously that will change if there is another match against the Rybka Forum, since I am a Rybka guy through and through ). What I see so far is that both parties are in agreement on having a neutral observer, but in disagreement on what the observer should be allowed to do.

First, I must make some points on the necessity of a neutral observer. First, there were some points during the match between the Rybka Warriors and the Hiarcs Headbangers (affectionately called "Hamsters" by the Warriors) where we needed a neutral party to observe the match and act as an arbitrator during disagreements. This is a general necessary feature of such matches between different teams of players. In the case of this match, the neutral observer was Graham Banks, and he performed his job well and made judgments fairly (even if I might have disagreed on occasion at the time ). Such issues can readily be observed from searching through the old threads in that subforum, as well as requesting access from a Rybka moderator to the appropriate threads in the Rybka Forum.

Generally speaking, you can still have access to the subforum without having access to particular threads at a particular time. This takes away the worry about not being able to see the analysis after the game has been played--after the games are played, other people may be allowed to see the analysis. This does not, however, take away the worry about potential problems that might be caused by "moles" or saboteurs.

The captain of the CCC/CTF team, Christopher, has mentioned the need for names of team members to be shared between the teams. First, this creates a problem if it is done openly because there are some people, like myself, who prefer not to have their real names and their aliases appear on the same web page, ready to be searched through Google. Second, this doesn't really solve the problem because only honest people are going to give their real names in the first place, and we're not worried about such people. The people who are out to cause problems will make up different names (and potentially different e-mail accounts) and thus thwart that system. Nonetheless, if people are comfortable with it, I see no problem with privately sending identification of names with handles between the captains of the teams, though these captains must agree explicitly not to share these names with anyone if they are different from the titles of the aliases.

The final and most significant point of discussion concerns the role of the neutral observer. As already mentioned, a neutral observer is necessary in the first place to mediate points of contention. Second, a neutral observer is necessary to try to thwart potential moles and saboteurs before the games become too badly damaged. In order to do this, part of the observer's job is to moderate the secret threads of each team. If the wording, language, exact numbers in analysis, etc. are the same, then the moderator can see this fairly readily. Some people might argue that this can be done after the game by giving everyone access to the secret threads at that point, but this is wrong for two main reasons. First, after the game, people are reading a very long thread all at once. Second, people don't remember by that point who posted what in their own forum. Thus, a neutral observer is required to be able to do this at the time that posts are being made. The presence of a neutral observer was agreed to by both parties at the start of the match, though the CCC/CTF Team captain, Christopher, is now arguing against the role of the observer as a secret thread moderator, saying that it was not stated explicitly in the match terms. While he is semantically correct at first glance, it is not much of a mental leap to realize that a neutral observer, in order to be able to fulfill the role of the title, MUST be able to see the secret threads of both teams. We had saboteurs in the match between the Hiarcs Headbangers and the Rybka Warriors. These were found, eliminated from the team, and all was fine before any damage was done. The neutral observer must be able to spot the first signs of damage before things become bad. In order to do this, he must have access to all discussion during the time that it is being made. If this cannot be done, I don't see any way for the match to be able to take place, though since I am not the captain of either team, that is not my judgment to make.

If you don't know your own team that is not our problem.

We have 7 people with real names.

Second, this doesn't really solve the problem because only honest people are going to give their real names in the first place

LOL....thats right.

I do believe we are getting through.

[JEB_Tucson]

Hello Christopher

You were asked, if modifications to the game rules need to changed, that you contact Steve B, NATIONAL12, or myself and you have done that.

You accept the game rules with the exception of the neutral party. You want no neutral party. Is this correct?

I will discuss this with the Team and we will either accept your condition or cancel the game.

Thanks
James

[Harvey Williamson]

http://www.talkchess.com/forum/viewtopi ... 185#281185

[Christopher Conkie]

Hello Christopher

You were asked, if modifications to the game rules need to changed, that you contact Steve B, NATIONAL12, or myself and you have done that.

You accept the game rules with the exception of the neutral party. You want no neutral party. Is this correct?

I will discuss this with the Team and we will either accept your condition or cancel the game.

Thanks
James

We do not mind if there is a neutral party.

We do mind if that party is allowed to see our analysis and we do not care who you choose. We still don't want that.

Our thread will be open and on view after the game has finished and if you want to know who our voting members are......we can tell you so that there is not a conflict of interest.

In return we expect the names of your team members either publically or in private so we know.

Will you be displaying your thread after the game also?

[JEB_Tucson]

Hello Christopher

You were asked, if modifications to the game rules need to changed, that you contact Steve B, NATIONAL12, or myself and you have done that.

You accept the game rules with the exception of the neutral party. You want no neutral party. Is this correct?

I will discuss this with the Team and we will either accept your condition or cancel the game.

Thanks
James

We do not mind if there is a neutral party.

We do mind if that party is allowed to see our analysis and we do not care who you choose. We still don't want that.

Our thread will be open and on view after the game has finished and if you want to know who our voting members are......we can tell you so that there is not a conflict of interest.

In return we expect the names of your team members either publically or in private so we know.

Will you be displaying your thread after the game also?

Hi Christopher

The neutral party certainly should be a person that both Teams know and trust because that person would have access to secret analysis threads. The purpose of the neutral party is to insure that neither Team has a spy, so, by definition that person would have to have access to all threads.
Your Team does not want to have a neutral person with access to your analysis and I accept that. So lets move on in a friendly fashion and see if this game will be played or canceled.

After the game is finished, the Headbangers thread will be made open for your team to read. We have always done that in the past and will continue that in the future. I believe you will be doing that also.

You have access to the Headbangers roster. I believe your issue is that some members only go by a nickname. The problem is that some of our members do not want to post their real names and, even if they did, there is no way of really knowing if that is their real name or not. So I don't press the issue. At some point you have to know your team members only by their actions and I believe I can trust all of the Headbangers.

So, both Teams have some issues to consider.

The CCC Forum Team must accept the names of the Headbanger Team members as shown on our roster or you need to cancel the game.

The Headbangers Team needs to accept the fact that there will be no neutral party or we need to cancel the game.

Christopher, If I have missed any other points, Please let me know. Let's keep a cool head and see if we can make the game happen.

Sincerely
James