Sensory 9 / 9B questions

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Monsieur Plastique
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Sensory 9 / 9B questions

Post by Monsieur Plastique »

It's been a quarter of a century since I used one of these machines and I can't recall what the openings books were like.

Assuming the machine is not fitted with an openings module, how much variety is there in opening play when the machine is left to it's own devices?

The reason I ask is that Fidelity machines traditionally know a lot of opening lines but they tend to have a rather narrow "preferred" repertoire (Elegance seemed to be ab exception).

I know for example that my Excellence knows far more opening lines than it would play by "choice".

Also, was there any difference in openings book between the original 9 and the 9B model?

And finally, did the 9 ever have a randomisation option and if so did this improve openings variety?
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Post by Steve B »

Hi Jon

well the SC9 has a 3000 move opening book and it is pretty limited in its replies from what i remember(havent played it in quite some time)
it does have a "book practice mode "which greatly expands the lines it will play on its own..it will even choose some inferior book moves

dont know much about the difference between the books in the 9 vs 9b although i would imagine they are probably the same

Harper seems to know some information about the difference's in the 9 and 9b

Cooking The Books Regards
Steve
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Post by Larry »

Hi Jon, Yes, as Steve says, I have had some experience with both these
machines, ie, the Fidelity 9A and 9B. I have played a number of games
between them at 5secs/move and at 15 secs/move. I don't have the
patience for longer time controls.
I can say with certainty that the opening book is the same for both. You
are right, left to itself it plays a narrow repertoire of moves, although it
does know some it rarely plays. You realize when you open the game you
can simply press <RV> to get a different move if you are not happy with
it's choice. However even this only alternates between about 4 white
first moves and only two black first moves.
Regarding playing strength difference, it is noticeable. My guess is about
40 or so rating points. This can be partly attributed to the higher clock
speed (2mhz for the B versus 1.5 or 1.6mhz for the A) . I get the impression
that the B has a better endgame also. I'm not sure here but I think there
was an optional endgame module for the A, which seems as if it is
included in the mainboard of the B.
The B is harder to come by. If you want one, wait until one comes along
and ask the seller for the serial number on the base . If it starts with
"32...", then you can be fairly sure it's a B. To be absolutely sure, ask
the seller to play (on the 5sec level, 1.h4. The A will reply with a centre
pawn push, while the B will play 1...b6.
Worth mentioning is that the B I have came in a slightly different box.
The box has a gloss on it, not found on the A box. Also, on the front of
the A box it boasts a USCF rating of 1776. This text is not found on the
front of the B box, but it is included elsewhere on the B box.
The B stands for "Budapest", so someone claimed. This means it has
the Budapest program, an upgraded version. It's my guess that, nearing
the end of the production run, they did'nt run out of components evenly.
They ran out of mainboards, but still had a stack of plastic cases out the
back they did'nt know what to do with. So in went the later mainboards.
They did'nt label the B as an upgrade for sales. But then Fidelity I'm told,
were inclined to make changes on the fly without notice.
Hope I have'nt waffled on too much
take care
Larry
PS Also, as a piece of trivia, the A has a bug in the K versus K + B + N.
The A claims a drawn game. The B knows it's not a draw.
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Post by Monsieur Plastique »

Thanks Steve and Larry. Larry - an excellent run down. So if I were to compare the SC9 library with the original Constellation 2 Mhz / 3.6 Mhz openings library (with the Novag on "best move"), then the Novag would offer much more variety? And with Novag set to "random", then far more variety again?

Also, is the SC9 book practice mode the same thing as pressing the RV key, or is that something different again?
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Post by Larry »

Monsieur Plastique wrote:Thanks Steve and Larry. Larry - an excellent run down. So if I were to compare the SC9 library with the original Constellation 2 Mhz / 3.6 Mhz openings library (with the Novag on "best move"), then the Novag would offer much more variety? And with Novag set to "random", then far more variety again?

Also, is the SC9 book practice mode the same thing as pressing the RV key, or is that something different again?
Regarding the Constellation opening book, sorry, but although I own
one I have'nt played it for some time so can't comment on that.
The SC9 book practice mode is not the same thing. Pressing <RV> is
for when you are playing a game against the machine, and don't like it's
choice. It only applies to white's and black's first move. On the second
move pressing <RV> will only result in one move suggestion. If the book has
run out pressing <RV> will force the machine to play a move for the
other side.
For book practice mode, you press the start of game option F5. Then
pressing <RV> will give tabulate through *all* of SC9's opening library.
In it's day, this was a fantastic feature. The SC9 was a battler's version
of the expensive wooden voice sensory, and was touted as having an
'updated' program. I still remember being fascinated by it. The annoying
voice was gone for starters.
Larry
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Post by Steve B »

Nice analysis of the SC9 A vs B Larry

my SC9 Serial number begins with 33....
it does play 1..b6 in reply to 1.e4 on level 1
the 1776 rating statement appears on the side of the glossy box
some old literature i dug up mentions the chief difference between the two versions is the 2 Mhz for the B vs 1.5 Mhz for the A
no mention of any differences in the book
the rating difference was estimated to be at least 80 pts higher for the B
and finally,Fidelity never released an endgame module for any of its computers

Following Up Regards
Steve
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Post by Bryan Whitby »

Hi Larry
Many thanks for the info, very interesting.
Regards
Bryan
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Post by Monsieur Plastique »

Larry wrote:The B stands for "Budapest", so someone claimed. This means it has
the Budapest program, an upgraded version.

So this is where I get a little bit confused. The Budapest program makes sense, but of course Fidelity had always had different "grades" of the same program across all their "serious" Spraklen models. For example, the Elites were supposed to have top of the line Budapest / Glasgow programs and the cheap plastique models such as Excellence were reported to have a more basic stripped down version with less features, some missing heuristics, lacking the sophisticated time control management algorythms and lower speed.

So I am guessing the 9B program would have been a similarly basic version of the Budapest program in the same way the 9B's spiritual successor (Excellence 3 Mhz) had a basic version of the Glasgow program.

Is the above train of thought correct or am I off the money? Or if I am close to being correct then could we effectively say that despite the Fidelity marketing department insistence that the Excellence was a "breakthrough", the Excellence really was a third upgrade to the Sensory 9?

So we had:

1. Original Sensory 9 at 1.5 Mhz 16K ROM, 2K RAM, 3000 move opening book.

2. Sensory 9B - 2 Mhz, Budapest program, 16K ROM, 2K RAM, 3000 move opening book, up to 80 points stronger than original Sensory 9 depending on who you ask.

3. Excellence 3 Mhz - 16K ROM, 2K RAM, program from Glasgow, perhaps around 120 odd points stronger than Sensory 9B.


The reason I am trying to delve deeply into this is I am considering the virtues of even getting a Sensory 9B if I already have the Excellence. It seems to me that the Excellence is in every way a further evolution of the Sensory 9 and there should be nothing that is worse about the Excellence as compared to the 9B. I realise the Excellence has a higher rating, but these Fidelity programs - more than any others bar Kaplan Saiteks - benefit disproportionately from improved clock speeds.

But the reason for my uncertainty is that CCR Reports in 1985 - when previewing the Excellence - really seemed to bag it, almost insinuating it to be some sort of an overpriced joke that would play medoicre chess at best (but they never said that of the 9B - quite the opposite infact - they lavished the latter with nothing but the highest of praise). But there never seemed to be an actual subsequent review of it, since by the time CCR did the next Fidelity review proper, the Excellence was relegated to a small paragraph at the end of the review.

But I guess what I am really interested in is how the Excellence 3 Mhz compares to the Sensory 9B. I know all about the feature differences, so I am really interested in the play. As I say, if the aim is to actually play the machine rather than collect it, I wonder if the Excellence is the better choice?

I just played my Excellence today at 1 minute per move and got to a winning pawn and minor piece endgame, only to blunder and draw :roll: But the fact that I got into a winning position at all was very suprising for me given my lowly playing strength. I never recall ever getting anywhere near close to a good position at all against a Sensory 9 when I played it on several ocassions 25 years ago.

So in the absence of clear technical information about the evolution of this series, I am starting to conclude either the differences between Sensory 9B and Excellence were much smaller than many would have liked to believe, and / or that perhaps those Daniel King DVDs are paying off and that I am actually a stronger player these days than I have been giving myself credit for.
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Post by Steve B »

Its clear that the answer is that you are a stronger player

the 3 Mhz is clearly stronger then the SC9 or SC9B
Selective Search rated the..
3 Mhz Excellence- 1754 (with over 1500 Games used in the rating)
SC9-1528

the chief difference between the SC9 and SC9B as i have already mentioned previously is the SC9 runs at a 50% faster speed(1.5 Mhz vs 1Mhz)
never read in print anywhere that the B stands for Budapest(but i guess anything is possible)
some old literature i have places the rating for the B at about 80-100 stronger then the SC9
So lets say about 1620

with the Excellence you get a stronger computer by +125 over the SC9B
perhaps chiefly due to the faster speed but i dont see that as a reason not to buy it..

after all..Practically every Novag computer is some form of Kittingers engine either improved or running on faster,Stronger hardware with improvements over the years coming ever so slightly.. model by model ..year by year

chances are there are some engine improvements in the Excellence over the SC9 as it was released in 1985 vs 1982-3 for the SC9's
no matter how you slice it..the Excellence is the stronger computer

having said all that...
feast your eyes on this ...
http://cgi.ebay.com/Fidelity-EXCELLENCE ... 0133156343


Cutting to the chase regards
Steve
P.S.Fidelity also released a 4 Mhz Excellence which clocked in at 35-40 Elo higher then the 3
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Post by Larry »

Monsieur Plastique wrote:


So we had:

1. Original Sensory 9 at 1.5 Mhz 16K ROM, 2K RAM, 3000 move opening book.

2. Sensory 9B - 2 Mhz, Budapest program, 16K ROM, 2K RAM, 3000 move opening book, up to 80 points stronger than original Sensory 9 depending on who you ask.

3. Excellence 3 Mhz - 16K ROM, 2K RAM, program from Glasgow, perhaps around 120 odd points stronger than Sensory 9B.
.
The Excellence came out fully two years after the SC9B, and was
not it's immediate successor. Two years was
a long time in chess comp terms in those days. In the middle year (1984)
we had the Fidelity '12', a wooden machine, which was released in two
different clock speeds.
http://www.schach-computer.info/wiki/in ... Sensory_12

This machine would give a better comparison with SC9B. It's book was
the same size, (3000 variations), but was not identical. It would surprise
you with offbeat opening lines without being prompted. Apart from this
the Fidelity '12' may be not much more than an overclocked SC9B.
I may be misunderstanding a bit here, and you may only be talking
about plastic machines. Forgive me if that's the case.

For me at least, the best thing about the SC9 was that it was a really
neat and functional machine for it's day, with a light on every square,
unlike the Excellence which only had coordinate lights. The CCR reports
would have heaped praise on the SC9 for this reason. Remember that
as time went by more playing strength was expected. Regarding playing
strength, Excellence is too much stronger than SC9B to even bother
playing them against each other.
We have to remember that back in those days the manufacturers were
not stupid. They would have known the days of the dedicateds were
numbered. As processors became more powerful and screen resolutions
improved, it was only a matter of time before serious computer chess
went from 3D to 2D. They fed the chooks just enough extra elo points
from one model to another to get us to reach for our wallets, and the
manufacturers kept an eye on each others' machines. A *LOT* of money
changed hands as people lined up to surrender a week's pay packet in
return for a plastic chess computer. A fortnight's pay if you wanted wood.
Nice day in Gosford regards
Larry
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Post by Monsieur Plastique »

Hi Larry,

I still get the feeling that there was much more of a gap in strength between the original 9 program to the 9B than there was between the 9B and Excellence.

The reason I say that is because these Fidelity programs have always scaled extremely well with minor processor improvements. With any Fidelity machine, you can really feel the linear improvement in playing strength as the processor gets faster (or the program uses more time). In the same way that the Kaplan programs scaled and even Fritz on my Nintendo DS in the current day (probably because the latter is based on Fritz 10 and has a huge amount of chess knowledge to churn through). This is in stark contrast to Schroder, Kittinger and late 80s to late 90s Morsch programs where the scaling was logarithmic.

Larry Kaufman actually made the point in the CCR that Fidelity was written for 3 minutes per move and the faster levels are relatively weak. That said, of course the 9B running at 2 Mhz with 3 minutes per move is the equivalent hardware power of the Excellence 3 Mhz running at 2 minutes per move.

I actually think that an Excellence running at 2 minutes per move would not be hugely stronger than a 9B running at 3 minutes per move. I reckon perhaps about 50 points stronger.

In any case, it is pretty clear I would be wasting my time getting an original 9, since I would be a bit stronger than it is. And although a 9B at three minutes per move would certainly give me a tough game, I expect the Excellence at 2 minutes per move would do slightly better (I think I am a bit stronger than an Excellence if it runs at 1 minute per move).

There is the opening library issues though. After looking at all the old Sensory 9 games in the CCR, the openings variety is actually not that bad at all. Certainly more variety than the Excellence, even though Excellence knows a lot of lines. So this would still be a reason to seek out a 9B - on account of the openings book. It's interesting to see that Fidelity's early Holz machines - Sensory 12 then Elegance - had remarkably varied openings libraries of their own volition, but for some reason this never carried through to any of the plastique machines of the era. Par Excellence was an openings book nightmare, for example.

My aversion to Holz and my seeming love of plastique is simply based on practicalities. I suffer from fibromyalgia and it is all but impossible for me to play chess anywhere other than lying down in bed. This makes all the Holz machines practically impossible to use, especially since Hilary also makes the bed her own. There is just not room for one man, his cat and large scale Holz as well!
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how to tell difference Fidelity and novag

Post by Queegmeister »

Hello Fellows

I am wondering how you can tell the difference between FIDELITY MHZ for excellence 3,4 ,5 Mhz and sc9 1,5,2,3 mhz

of course I think the sc9 is saying deluxe for 3 mhz ?

then the NOVAG can be confusing like aquamarine risc II and emerald etc...
the box says one thing and the crystal says another in some models ???

a list would be oh so kind.

If its in the serial number then ranges list for each kind

I can't tell from boxes which are which

witching hour regards
Dr.Q
Only he who never plays, never loses
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Steve B
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Post by Steve B »

One cosmetic difference i can think of is with the Excellence 4 Mhz
when Fidelity upgraded the Mhz from 3 to 4 they sold the computer with a RED sticker on the box which said "4Mhz"

see here:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/10261668@ ... 922170604/

Seeing Red Regards
Steve

P.S. for a discussion on serial numbers for the SC9....read here:
http://hiarcs.net/forums/viewtopic.php? ... highlight=
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Re: how to tell difference Fidelity and novag

Post by Larry »

Queegmeister wrote:Hello Fellows

I am wondering how you can tell the difference between FIDELITY MHZ for excellence 3,4 ,5 Mhz and sc9 1,5,2,3 mhz

of course I think the sc9 is saying deluxe for 3 mhz ?

then the NOVAG can be confusing like aquamarine risc II and emerald etc...
the box says one thing and the crystal says another in some models ???

a list would be oh so kind.

If its in the serial number then ranges list for each kind

I can't tell from boxes which are which

witching hour regards
Dr.Q
When the model is released, the manufacturer would not normally
state the clock speed. However, as Steve says, sometimes the
model will be repeated with a well advertised clock speed. Novag
did this with the original Connie. It was probably to prop up sales and
help get rid of excess stock while they waited for the next model to
be ready for release.
However,
even with no indication, it's no problem for a tech person to simply
put an oscilloscope on the correct CPU pin and note it's speed. That's how
we know there were several different speed SC9's. With the SC9B, there
was an increase from 1.5mhz to 2mhz, and you could easily hear the
higher beep pitch when you powered up both an 'A' and a 'B' together.
As a piece of trivia, do you know how Mozart's mother knew she had
a musical genius for a son? One day she let the toilet seat drop, and the
kid called out "C Sharp!" Not sure how true this is... :wink:
L
Queegmeister
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excellence serial number significant ??

Post by Queegmeister »

Hello

I noticed a 53..... beginning on one model does that mean 5 mhz or was 5 a mod

offending the pure regards
Dr. Q
Only he who never plays, never loses
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