Questions on Novag Obsidian and some strange behavior

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RadioSmall
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Questions on Novag Obsidian and some strange behavior

Post by RadioSmall »

Greetings Hiarcs Forum Members.I have recently bought a Novag Obsidian chess computer , and I am rather displeased with its lack of variety openings.In response to the Move 1.d4 Obsidian always responds with d5 , and after 2.c4 its always plays 2....d5xc4.It does however vary its opening moves when playing white, with the moves 1.e4, 1.d4 1.f4 and 1.b3! being played .Hence this is a nonvarying black color problem.However if one presses the Random Key 3 times it (always) responds to 1.d4 by playing 1....Nf6. This is in direct contradiction to what the instruction booklet says about the Random Key, because according to it,the function is to randomize moves AFTER the Opening Stage.Here are some other strange things...It is out of book after 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3. It does come up with 3....Bb4 after thinking for quite some time though.It is out of book after 1.d4 d5 2.Nf3..I own many chess computers and I have never seen such deterministic play nor such early getting out of book in major lines so early.I would also like to mention that none of these problems exist in the Novag Sapphire , Another Computer made by the same company.Part of what makes playing chess computers fun is the fact that one never knows what kind of openings one has to face when playing these things and these machines generally vary the openings greatly.So I am disappointed in the Obsidian in this regards.I bought this chess computer new , and on the BOX there is a sticker about the the addition of 2 new features .One of the features is a Mutiple stlye opening book with the options of active, passive and tournament , but NOWHERE in the instruction booklet is there any information on how to activate these options. Does anybody know what in the world is going on here???
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Re: Questions on Novag Obsidian and some strange behavior

Post by Steve B »

RadioSmall wrote:Greetings Hiarcs Forum Members.I have recently bought a Novag Obsidian chess computer , and I am rather displeased with its lack of variety openings.In response to the Move 1.d4 Obsidian always responds with d5 , and after 2.c4 its always plays 2....d5xc4.It does however vary its opening moves when playing white, with the moves 1.e4, 1.d4 1.f4 and 1.b3! being played .Hence this is a nonvarying black color problem.However if one presses the Random Key 3 times it (always) responds to 1.d4 by playing 1....Nf6. This is in direct contradiction to what the instruction booklet says about the Random Key, because according to it,the function is to randomize moves AFTER the Opening Stage.Here are some other strange things...It is out of book after 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3. It does come up with 3....Bb4 after thinking for quite some time though.It is out of book after 1.d4 d5 2.Nf3..I own many chess computers and I have never seen such deterministic play nor such early getting out of book in major lines so early.I would also like to mention that none of these problems exist in the Novag Sapphire , Another Computer made by the same company.Part of what makes playing chess computers fun is the fact that one never knows what kind of openings one has to face when playing these things and these machines generally vary the openings greatly.So I am disappointed in the Obsidian in this regards.I bought this chess computer new , and on the BOX there is a sticker about the the addition of 2 new features .One of the features is a Mutiple stlye opening book with the options of active, passive and tournament , but NOWHERE in the instruction booklet is there any information on how to activate these options. Does anybody know what in the world is going on here???
Greetings and Salutations RS
Welcome to the Forum

the Obsidians book is only 8900 ply so the opening repertoire will be limitied
you are right in that there is no actual feature to change the book style
the box also mentions 8 different endgame styles but this is nothing more then 8 endgame setup positions to practice from
the box is wrong but at least the manual is accurate

i know several of the higher rated Radio Shack computers (with the Morsch engine )mentions in its manual the ability to change opening book styles but the feature does not work
the user can only turn the book on/off

if you really want an example of a limited opening book the Excalibur GM takes the cake
it will only play something like E4 and D4 as white but if you go into monitor mode and force a different line it will play from a larger book

i guess you can do that with the Obsidian as well
while still in book you can try the "NEXT BEST" option
the computer will take back its move and come up with another book move
also set the computer to Book Training Mode
when you get the Out Of Book Signal simply switch to player v player and input some more book lines..you might wind up back in its book
i haven't tried it but its worth a go

IMHO the beauty of these babies is that each model has its own peculiarities and nuances

OBSessed Regards(Partial Pun Intended)
Steve
RadioSmall
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Post by RadioSmall »

Steve :Thanks for the reply, your Knowledge and posts on dedicated computers are simply awesome.Speaking of Radio Shack computers I have the RadioShack Master (1998) and the RadioShack 1650 (1984) .The master has a 6000 ply opening book and the RadioShack 1650 a 500 ply ,But even the Radioshack 1650 has more varied responses as black ,So my question is more about why is the Obsidian using only a very small part of its opening while playing black , but this does not happen when it plays the white peices, so I thought it might be some kind of bug....Also the Random key does randomize it response as black but in a strange way because it will now always play 1....Nf6 after d4 , while without the key it will, always play 1...d5.But the random key should be for the phase after the opening.I have a lot of computers with much smaller books than the 8900 ply Obsidian that do play much more varied opening with both colors , so I thought this might be some kind of programming error.Also getting out of book after 2 or 3 moves in the main lines that I mentioned has never been seen before...The Computer does not even have the Nimzo it seems!!!!!
Displeased regards
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Post by Steve B »

RadioSmall wrote:Steve :Thanks for the reply, your Knowledge and posts on dedicated computers are simply awesome.Speaking of Radio Shack computers I have the RadioShack Master (1998) and the RadioShack 1650 (1984) .The master has a 6000 ply opening book and the RadioShack 1650 a 500 ply ,But even the Radioshack 1650 has more varied responses as black ,So my question is more about why is the Obsidian using only a very small part of its opening while playing black , but this does not happen when it plays the white peices, so I thought it might be some kind of bug....Also the Random key does randomize it response as black but in a strange way because it will now always play 1....Nf6 after d4 , while without the key it will, always play 1...d5.But the random key should be for the phase after the opening.I have a lot of computers with much smaller books than the 8900 ply Obsidian that do play much more varied opening with both colors , so I thought this might be some kind of programming error.Also getting out of book after 2 or 3 moves in the main lines that I mentioned has never been seen before...The Computer does not even have the Nimzo it seems!!!!!
Displeased regards
Thanks for the Kind words RS
you seem to be a serous chess player and a limited book will be quite an annoyance .. i can certainly feel your pain
i dont know if there is an actual bug in the OBS..personally i never heard of one.. try asking your question over at the German dedicated chess computer forum
WWW.SCHACHCOMPUTER.INFO
the members there are always discussing bugs in the various models

Bugging Out Regards
Steve
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Post by Monsieur Plastique »

I'm glad I read this thread. Very timely as I was just on the cusp of buying an Obsidian. It looks like when it comes to the Novags with small libraries, nothing beats the little Star Opal. Pity the latter only plays at 1400 ELO though.

I am very surprised by this behaviour with the Obsidian - I used a Star Ruby for a short time and don't recall it having problems about playing lines versus having knowledge of them.

Perhaps someone has an Emerald Classic Plus (Obsidian predecessor) and they can check if it plays the lines which in the Osbidian seem to be knowledge only.

Personally I have never understood opening libraries that have such a narrow repertoire in terms of what the program will willingly play versus having the knowledge only in the event that the opponent should play it. Unless you are trying to outbook opponents (which might have happened back in the 80s when manufacturers were struggling to get competition results, etc and may happen today with engines), then it is one of the very best ways to bore an owner to tears.
Chess is like painting the Mona Lisa whilst walking through a minefield.
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Post by JMark »

HI, After reading this I tested my Obsidian and you are correct with regards to Obsidian's limited reply to whites openings. I tried to find more information on this and noticed both http://electronicchess.free.fr/parties/obsidian2d.html and http://www.xs4all.nl/~tluif/chescom/EngNovObs.html have test games in which the Obsidian is playing opening moves that I'm not able to get with my Obsidian. Makes me wonder what could be the cause? I love the design, game style and playing strength of the Obsidian, but since being brought to my attention on this forum, I'm not thrilled with blacks limited answers to whites opening, especially after I compared it to the my Saitek Centurion's much varied openings.
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Post by RadioSmall »

JMark wrote:HI, After reading this I tested my Obsidian and you are correct with regards to Obsidian's limited reply to whites openings. I tried to find more information on this and noticed both http://electronicchess.free.fr/parties/obsidian2d.html and http://www.xs4all.nl/~tluif/chescom/EngNovObs.html have test games in which the Obsidian is playing opening moves that I'm not able to get with my Obsidian. Makes me wonder what could be the cause? I love the design, game style and playing strength of the Obsidian, but since being brought to my attention on this forum, I'm not thrilled with blacks limited answers to whites opening, especially after I compared it to the my Saitek Centurion's much varied openings.
Hi
Thanks for responding to this post.The Limited reply to whites opening is a huge problem.It will always respond to 1.d4 by playing 1..d5. But if you hit the Random key enough number of times , then it will always respond by playing 1...Nf6!! .Not only is there nothing random about this , according to the Manual the Random Key is to Randomize after the Opening phase. This is what I dislike immensely , incorrect information in the manual, something very rare in dedicated computers.It looks like Novag is very careless in making their dedicated computers: The Obsidian lacks some standard openings like the Nimzo, that even 5 dollar dedicated units have programmed in them! Very Annoying!!
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Post by Larry »

Just checking the Emerald Classic Plus now. There is no <Random> key,
but there is a <Training> key. If, at the start of the game, you press
<training> repeatedly it will toggle through ten alternatives
for you. However, when I chose the 1.d2d4 move, it insisted only on 1...g8f6.
On repeating this exercise after selecting <new game> and <training>,
I again chose 1.d2d4 and this time it insisted on 1...d7d5.
After the first move, pressing <training> again resulted in a good number
of suggested move options for white's second move.
From this we have to suspect that Kittinger, the programmer, wrote the
engine but not the opening book. Some cowboy was commisioned to do that.
nice day all...
Larry
PS. As if this is not enough, I started the comp again,and this time without
pressing <training> I repeatedly started new games and in response to
1d2d4 it would decide randomly between 1...d7d5, 1...g8f6 and 1...c7c5.
This gets stranger by the minute.
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Obsidian Openings

Post by JMark »

My Excalibur Saber IV so far actually has more varied openings than the Obsidian. I was able to get three different responses within a short time and I think the Saber has 250 move opening library. I hope people are not discouraged from buying the Obsidian because of this. Its a beautiful computer! It has such a nice feel to it, great features with easy to use buttons and menu options and it plays a great game of chess. I have a friend who I have a lot of fun playing chess with, he only opens in one or two ways and we have had many great games together. Enjoyment of play was not diminished because of lack of opening variety! I think Steve's perspective is wise when he said "the beauty of these babies is that each model has its own peculiarities and nuances", just like a friend.
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Post by JMark »

RadioSmall wrote:
JMark wrote:HI, After reading this I tested my Obsidian and you are correct with regards to Obsidian's limited reply to whites openings. I tried to find more information on this and noticed both http://electronicchess.free.fr/parties/obsidian2d.html and http://www.xs4all.nl/~tluif/chescom/EngNovObs.html have test games in which the Obsidian is playing opening moves that I'm not able to get with my Obsidian. Makes me wonder what could be the cause? I love the design, game style and playing strength of the Obsidian, but since being brought to my attention on this forum, I'm not thrilled with blacks limited answers to whites opening, especially after I compared it to the my Saitek Centurion's much varied openings.
Hi
Thanks for responding to this post.The Limited reply to whites opening is a huge problem.It will always respond to 1.d4 by playing 1..d5. But if you hit the Random key enough number of times , then it will always respond by playing 1...Nf6!! .Not only is there nothing random about this , according to the Manual the Random Key is to Randomize after the Opening phase. This is what I dislike immensely , incorrect information in the manual, something very rare in dedicated computers.It looks like Novag is very careless in making their dedicated computers: The Obsidian lacks some standard openings like the Nimzo, that even 5 dollar dedicated units have programmed in them! Very Annoying!!
HI, I was actually able to get the Nimzo from the Obsidian by using the random key, so it seems random definitely effects openings. I don't need a random key to get this opening on my cheap little Saber IV but then again the Saber does not play chess up to 2000 elo. Also as evidenced by other sample games of the Obsidian on the internet it seems to reply with a surprise opening on rare occasions
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Re: Questions on Novag Obsidian and some strange behavior

Post by JMark »

Steve B wrote:...i guess you can do that with the Obsidian as well
while still in book you can try the "NEXT BEST" option
the computer will take back its move and come up with another book move
also set the computer to Book Training Mode
when you get the Out Of Book Signal simply switch to player v player and input some more book lines..you might wind up back in its book
i haven't tried it but its worth a go

IMHO the beauty of these babies is that each model has its own peculiarities and nuances

OBSessed Regards(Partial Pun Intended)
Steve
well Steve, I thought this was an interesting way to make use of 'next best' on the obsidian so as per the instructions in the manual I pressed on 'level' and then 'next best' The screen should show 'alt' but it didn't. I thought something was wrong with my board so I went in my closet and pulled out another NEW "backup" obsidian to test the feature on that board. (I really like this computer)
To my surprise the 'level' and 'info' keys DO NOT WORK! I quickly tested the board immediately after buying it a few years ago by making a few moves but I did not test every key. So all these years I've had a defective obsidian as a backup. While I was testing it an addendum fell out of the manual which states something to the effect of "the obsidian manual describes a 'next best' feature, this feature is not available on the obsidian, sorry for any inconvenience"
On the Excalibur GM, is 'Why not from' a similar feature to what the 'next best' is supposed to be? I just bought a GM but have not received it yet. Mark
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Re: Questions on Novag Obsidian and some strange behavior

Post by Steve B »

JMark wrote:
While I was testing it an addendum fell out of the manual which states something to the effect of "the obsidian manual describes a 'next best' feature, this feature is not available on the obsidian, sorry for any inconvenience"
On the Excalibur GM, is 'Why not from' a similar feature to what the 'next best' is supposed to be? I just bought a GM but have not received it yet. Mark
Hi Mark
there seems to be a fad these days of reprising posts made years ago and continuing the discussion as if there was no time in between
a phenomena only seen on forums like this
too bad real life isnt like that
:P

anyway..
the "WHY NOT" function is not really the same as a NEXT BEST function
with WN the computer will tell you its eval(score) of moves other then the best move it suggests you make after pressing the HINT button
it basically is just displaying its EVAL of moves other then the move it is suggesting the player make
with NB you are asking the computer to play another move for itself

not sure whats going on with your Obsidian but i checked the NEXT BEST function and it worked fine on mine

the computer will take back its move first which you must execute on the board and THEN it will display ALT

i did this test..
i played 1.e4
computer replied with
1..e5

i played ...2.h4
computer replied with
2..Bc5

i entered .....LEVEL...NEXT BEST
computer took back its move..
I executed the move take back on the board
then it displayed...
ALT
and then played
2..Nc6

strange you have a mysterious addendum that says that
was it written by Novag??

Time In A Bottle Regards
Steve
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Re: Questions on Novag Obsidian and some strange behavior

Post by fourthirty »

Steve B wrote:strange you have a mysterious addendum that says that
was it written by Novag??
Steve
Steve,

I have the same addendum pasted on the 2nd to last page in my Obsidian instruction manual. It states:

"IMPORTANT NOTICE. Please note that there is a misprint in this instruction manual. The Novag Obsidian does not have the NEXT BEST function. We apologize for any inconvenience caused. "

It is also printed in German and French, with the number 86-661-003 in the lower right hand corner. In fact, the previous owner even went through the trouble of striking through the text of Paragraph 20 in my instruction manual.

Even though I have Next Best labeled under my Take Back key, I can confirm this function does not work on my Obsidian.

Greg
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Re: Questions on Novag Obsidian and some strange behavior

Post by Steve B »

fourthirty wrote:
Steve B wrote:strange you have a mysterious addendum that says that
was it written by Novag??
Steve
Steve,

I have the same addendum pasted on the 2nd to last page in my Obsidian instruction manual. It states:

"IMPORTANT NOTICE. Please note that there is a misprint in this instruction manual. The Novag Obsidian does not have the NEXT BEST function. We apologize for any inconvenience caused. "

It is also printed in German and French, with the number 86-661-003 in the lower right hand corner. In fact, the previous owner even went through the trouble of striking through the text of Paragraph 20 in my instruction manual.

Even though I have Next Best labeled under my Take Back key, I can confirm this function does not work on my Obsidian.

Greg
Interesting
my manual has no such addendum and NEXT BEST works perfectly on mine
i guess there were two versions of the Obsidian released?
my manual is coded...85-661-000
manual copyright-2002
perhaps the Serial number can provide a clue...
133883

Stranger and Stranger Regards
Steve
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Re: Questions on Novag Obsidian and some strange behavior

Post by fourthirty »

RadioSmall wrote:Greetings Hiarcs Forum Members.I have recently bought a Novag Obsidian chess computer , and I am rather displeased with its lack of variety openings.In response to the Move 1.d4 Obsidian always responds with d5
I decided to run a quick test this morning on the Obsidian's Black responses to White's opening move. It appears the RANDOM function does affect the opening response, but not necessarily in the way that I would expect. I played 20 opening sequences for each setting.

AFTER POWER ON @ DEFAULT SETTINGS (RANDOM = 0)
1.e4
1...e5 (20/20 100%)

then

2.Nf3
2...Nc6 (20/20 100%)

Also, played a Queen's pawn opening:
1.d4
2...d5 (20/20 100%)

RANDOM = 1
1.e4
1...e5 (20/20 100%)

No change in Obsidian's response.

RANDOM = 2
1.e4
1...c5 (18/20 90%)
1...Nc6 (1/20 5%)
1...c6 (1/20 5%)

Slight variety now, but 1...e5 is never played???

RANDOM = 3
1.e4
1...c5 (19/20 95%)
1...a6 (1/20 5%)

Again 1...e5 is never played???

LEVEL CHANGED TO FUN 1 (Fn1) & RANDOM = 0
1.e4
1...e5 (20/20 100%)

I don't understand how this machine was released with the lack of variety in the opening responses. Love the design and gameplay of the Obsidian, but really hate the opening book play.

Do other Obsidian's respond in a similar manner? Any other thoughts on changes to default settings to "open" up the openings???
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