Collector's Corner... On The Mephisto Wunder Machine

SirDave · Post by **SirDave** » Mon Dec 05, 2011 5:50 pm

Steve B wrote:
SirDave wrote:Steve, keep your hands off of WM's overclock switch tonight.
The 10th and final game is coming up soon Dave
Question for you, the Wiki shows a rating estimate for the 1993 WunderMachine running on a 486 (66 Mhz )of 2350 with Chess Genius 2. The updated WM i have also contains chess Genius 2 but it runs on a Pentium III AT 866 Mhz would you know how to extrapolate from the 486(66) to the PIII(866) to give me a rough idea as to the rating of the G2 on this WunderMachine?
im thinking perhaps another 100-125 pts to bring it to about 2450-2475?

Converting Regards
Steve

Well, there's a tough question and I'm sure there are more than a few reading this thread that know more about it than myself. The 80486 and Pentium III were released almost exactly 10 years apart (486 circa 1990 and P3 circa 2000). My guess is that the WM would have the Coppermine (laptop) version of the P3 which was released several months after the original P3. (Interestingly enough, the 486 was such a workhorse for its time that Intel continued production until around 2007!)

Thus, there are so many differences internally between the two CPUs beyond the mHZ, not to mention a much larger L1 cache in the P3, that comparisons of something like a chess engine rating under the two would be very difficult. Even the instruction sets are so different that WinXP couldn't run on a 486 even if it wanted to. So, coming up with a rating for the G2 on the WM based on the different CPUs would be (IMO) entirely a guesstimate, but I think a conservative figure of 100 would be safe. However, again, others likely know more than I do.

Fond memories of when my 486-DX2 box arrived Regards,
Dave

Post by **Steve B** » Mon Dec 05, 2011 6:18 pm

SirDave wrote:
Steve B wrote:
SirDave wrote:Steve, keep your hands off of WM's overclock switch tonight.
The 10th and final game is coming up soon Dave
Question for you, the Wiki shows a rating estimate for the 1993 WunderMachine running on a 486 (66 Mhz )of 2350 with Chess Genius 2. The updated WM i have also contains chess Genius 2 but it runs on a Pentium III AT 866 Mhz would you know how to extrapolate from the 486(66) to the PIII(866) to give me a rough idea as to the rating of the G2 on this WunderMachine?
im thinking perhaps another 100-125 pts to bring it to about 2450-2475?

Converting Regards
Steve
Well, there's a tough question and I'm sure there are more than a few reading this thread that know more about it than myself. The 80486 and Pentium III were released almost exactly 10 years apart (486 circa 1990 and P3 circa 2000). My guess is that the WM would have the Coppermine (laptop) version of the P3 which was released several months after the original P3. (Interestingly enough, the 486 was such a workhorse for its time that Intel continued production until around 2007!)

Thus, there are so many differences internally between the two CPUs beyond the mHZ, not to mention a much larger L1 cache in the P3, that comparisons of something like a chess engine rating under the two would be very difficult. Even the instruction sets are so different that WinXP couldn't run on a 486 even if it wanted to. So, coming up with a rating for the G2 on the WM based on the different CPUs would be (IMO) entirely a guesstimate, but I think a conservative figure of 100 would be safe. However, again, others likely know more than I do.

Fond memories of when my 486-DX2 box arrived Regards,
Dave

Thanks Dave for that informative reply
and now..
The Final Game Regards
Steve

Post by **Steve B** » Mon Dec 05, 2011 6:24 pm

In the 10th and final game ..
WM has White and opens with 1.Nc3
WM is out of book first at move 16
The first game in any of the 20 games to see 0-0-0 Castling by
any computer and here both computers 0-0-0
this results in a double edged tactical game where no side can launch
a full out attack without exposing its own K to attack
eventually the Res II wins a P on move 45 but the WM is able to hunker down and hold the draw

[Date "2011.12.05"]
[Round "10"]
[White "WunderMachine Genius5"]
[Black "Resurrection II Rybka 2.2n8"]
[Time Control "1 Min.Avg."]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]

1.Nc3 c5 2.e4 Nc6 3.Nge2 d6 4.d4 cxd4 5.Nxd4 Nf6 6.Bg5 e6 7.Qd2 a6
8.O-O-O Bd7 9.f4 h6 10.Bh4 g5 11.fxg5 Ng4 12.Nf3 hxg5 13.Bg3 Be7 14.Be2
Nge5 15.Kb1 b5 16.a3 Nxf3 17.gxf3 Ne5 18.f4 gxf4 19.Bxf4 Qc7 20.Rhf1 Qc5
21.Be3 Qc7 22.Bh6 O-O-O 23.a4 bxa4 24.Bg7 Rh7
25.Bf6 Bxf6 26.Rxf6 Kb7 27.Qxd6 Qxd6 28.Rxd6 Rxh2 29.Bxa6+ Kc7 30.Rd1
Rb8 31.Kc1 Bc6 32.Rd4 Kb6 33.Be2 Kc5 34.Rd1 Rb4 35.Bd3 Rh8 36.Re1 Rhb8
37.Nd1 Ra8 38.Nf2 a3 39.bxa3 Rxa3 40.Kd2 Kd4 41.Rd1 Ra2 42.Ke2 Rbb2
43.Rd2 Nxd3 44.Rxd3+ Kc4 45.Ke3 Rxc2 46.Rd4+ Kb3 47.Rd3+ Kb4 48.Rd4+ Ka5
49.Nd3 Bb5 50.Rd8 Bxd3 51.Rxd3 Rc7 52.Rb3 Rh2 53.Kf4 Rh5 54.Rb1 Rb5
55.Rg1 Kb6 56.Rg7 Rb1 57.Ke5 Rc5+ 58.Kd4 Rd1+ 59.Ke3 Rc3+ 60.Ke2 Rd4
61.Rgxf7 Rxe4+ 62.Kd2 Rc6 63.Kd3 Re1 64.Kd2 Re5 65.Rd7 Kc5 66.Rf3 Rd5+
67.Rd3 Rxd7 68.Rxd7 Rd6+ 69.Rxd6 Kxd6 70.Ke2 Kd5 71.Kd3 e5 72.Ke3 e4
73.Ke2 Ke6 74.Kf2 Kf5 75.Ke3 Ke5 76.Ke2 Kd4 77.Kd2 Ke5 *

Final Position

[fen]8/8/8/4k3/4p3/8/3K4/8 w - - 0 78[/fen]

i called it a draw here
WM understands the concept of "King Opposition" and has been replying instantly since move 70 showing 0.00

WM loses the match by the smallest possible margin 4.5-5.5(3Wins,4 Losses and 3 Draws)
Based upon the SSDF Rating for Res II-Rybka 2.2n8 of 2632
WunderMachine earns a Performance Rating for this match of 2592
Combined with the performance rating of 2635 from the first 10 game Match against Res I Fruit O5(SSDF 2395)
WunderMachine achieves a Performance Rating for the full 20 games of 2614

And so this Chapter of the Legendary WunderMachine draws to a
close
In Golden Slumber for nearly two decades ..it rises in the new
millennium .. like a Phoenix from the ashes .. to test its mettle
against the best chess computers of the day
Now it re-submerges ...deep into the Subterranean depths of the
earths core ...and the protective vaults of the "Ultra Rare" Collection

There and Back Again Regards
Steve

Bryan Whitby · Post by **Bryan Whitby** » Mon Dec 05, 2011 7:11 pm

Thanks Steve
Probably one of the best posts to appear here.
I wonder if Richard has an even stronger version at home?
Wonder Boy Regards
Bryan

xchessg · Post by **xchessg** » Mon Dec 05, 2011 8:17 pm

Steve B wrote: And so this Chapter of the Legendary WunderMachine draws to a
close
In Golden Slumber for nearly two decades ..it rises in the new
millennium .. like a Phoenix from the ashes .. to test its mettle
against the best chess computers of the day
Now it re-submerges ...deep into the Subterranean depths of the
earths core ...and the protective vaults of the "Ultra Rare" Collection

There and Back Again Regards
Steve

Thanks Steve for some really interesting reading material.

One question, though: Since you had to repair the machine, you probably had a look on the inside. I'm interested in how Mephisto engineers designed the PC-to-board in- and output communication. Does it go over a paralell port? Or/and does it have the electronics you'd also find in an normal modular board? I suspect it might be something similar to the PC Modul or PC board.

Why isn't it possible, then, to have early Fritz/Shredder/Rebel versions running on the WM? I noted that Lang had to adapt Genius to the WM, which gives strong evidence that there are at least slight incompabilities with the drivers designed for use with the PC modul/board.

clueless regards

Xavier

Post by **Steve B** » Mon Dec 05, 2011 8:30 pm

xchessg wrote:
Steve B wrote: And so this Chapter of the Legendary WunderMachine draws to a
close
In Golden Slumber for nearly two decades ..it rises in the new
millennium .. like a Phoenix from the ashes .. to test its mettle
against the best chess computers of the day
Now it re-submerges ...deep into the Subterranean depths of the
earths core ...and the protective vaults of the "Ultra Rare" Collection

There and Back Again Regards
Steve
Thanks Steve for some really interesting reading material.

One question, though: Since you had to repair the machine, you probably had a look on the inside. I'm interested in how Mephisto engineers designed the PC-to-board in- and output communication. Does it go over a paralell port? Or/and does it have the electronics you'd also find in an normal modular board? I suspect it might be something similar to the PC Modul or PC board.

Why isn't it possible, then, to have early Fritz/Shredder/Rebel versions running on the WM? I noted that Lang had to adapt Genius to the WM, which gives strong evidence that there are at least slight incompabilities with the drivers designed for use with the PC modul/board.

clueless regards

Xavier

Thanks Bryan and Xavier for the kind words
i personally did not repair the WM ..a good friend of mine (and member here) did all of the repair work necessary and he does not live near me
i had to ship the computer to him for the repair
i did open the computer initially to see if perhaps it was something simple which of course it never is
the insides looked nothing like A Normal mephisto board
it looked to me like a PC would ..with a Hard Drive..cooling fan sitting on top of the PIII processor ..connections for the CD drive ,floppy drive ...,mouse pad etc etc
it does have another cooling fan on the side of the board which i guess no normal PC would have
i guess i could load in (via the floppy drive or CD Rom drive ) any dos or even windows 98 compatible chess engine and it would play on the screen but i dont think it would be able to show the moves on the auto sensory mephisto board
this needed an extra module connected from the mother board to the chess board

sorry if my reply makes no sense but opening up any dedicated chess computer let alone this one is really not my forte

Basically clueless myself about those things regards
Steve

SirDave · Post by **SirDave** » Mon Dec 05, 2011 8:58 pm

Steve, let me add my thanks for running this match. For a machine of this age to perform at that 2600+ level is pretty impressive by any measure. And due to the fact that the WM did not humilate itself, I have now called off surveillance of your garbage cans.

ricard60 · Post by **ricard60** » Tue Dec 06, 2011 1:12 am

Hi Steve,

Your Mephisto WM probably was the latest version of this machine. I was looking into this link:

http://www.schach-computer.info/wiki/in ... ermaschine

and the processor was an 80486 and not a pentium III as yours i believe this was the first type they use for this model.

WM regards
Ricardo

Post by **Steve B** » Tue Dec 06, 2011 1:28 am

ricard60 wrote:Hi Steve,

Your Mephisto WM probably was the latest version of this machine. I was looking into this link:

http://www.schach-computer.info/wiki/in ... ermaschine

and the processor was an 80486 and not a pentium III as yours i believe this was the first type they use for this model.

WM regards
Ricardo

Thats correct Ricardo
as i mentioned in the lead post of this thread
the WM i have is upgraded from the 1993 WM
I Also posted the Wiki link in the lead post as well

Back to the Future Regards
Steve

Post by **Steve B** » Tue Dec 06, 2011 1:36 am

SirDave wrote:Steve, let me add my thanks for running this match. For a machine of this age to perform at that 2600+ level is pretty impressive by any measure. And due to the fact that the WM did not humilate itself, I have now called off surveillance of your garbage cans.

Glad you followed the matches
now i am sitting here with 2 tickets to Madison Square Garden waiting for the mighty portables to step into the ring
i paid an arm and a leg for these tickets which i bought from the blood sucking scalpers that stand in front of Msg on game night
the tickets call for 1 Min per move guaranteed minimum TC

Limbing and Grasping Regards
Steve

SirDave · Post by **SirDave** » Tue Dec 06, 2011 2:55 am

Steve B wrote:
SirDave wrote:Steve, let me add my thanks for running this match. For a machine of this age to perform at that 2600+ level is pretty impressive by any measure. And due to the fact that the WM did not humilate itself, I have now called off surveillance of your garbage cans.
Glad you followed the matches
now i am sitting here with 2 tickets to Madison Square Garden waiting for the mighty portables to step into the ring
i paid an arm and a leg for these tickets which i bought from the blood sucking scalpers that stand in front of Msg on game night
the tickets call for 1 Min per move guaranteed minimum TC

Limbing and Grasping Regards
Steve

You may have been duped by them scalpers! We're checking with the producers to make sure, but it was our understanding that we were being paid to provide a 30sec/move match!

Post by **Steve B** » Tue Dec 06, 2011 12:05 pm

SirDave wrote:
Steve B wrote:
SirDave wrote:Steve, let me add my thanks for running this match. For a machine of this age to perform at that 2600+ level is pretty impressive by any measure. And due to the fact that the WM did not humilate itself, I have now called off surveillance of your garbage cans.
Glad you followed the matches
now i am sitting here with 2 tickets to Madison Square Garden waiting for the mighty portables to step into the ring
i paid an arm and a leg for these tickets which i bought from the blood sucking scalpers that stand in front of Msg on game night
the tickets call for 1 Min per move guaranteed minimum TC

Limbing and Grasping Regards
Steve
You may have been duped by them scalpers! We're checking with the producers to make sure, but it was our understanding that we were being paid to provide a 30sec/move match!

just goes to show you ..one can never trust these low-life scalpers.Familiars they are..

30 seconds it is regards
Steve

chessguru · Post by **chessguru** » Thu Dec 08, 2011 11:38 pm

Hi Steve,

Steve B wrote:you or Sascha certainly have my permission (and gratitude) if you want to use any of my posts in the thread.. or any of these games to post to the Wiki

thank you for your permission.

Ready...

* http://www.schach-computer.info/wiki/in ... ermaschine *

Best regards,
Micha

Post by **Steve B** » Thu Dec 08, 2011 11:58 pm

chessguru wrote:Hi Steve,

Steve B wrote:you or Sascha certainly have my permission (and gratitude) if you want to use any of my posts in the thread.. or any of these games to post to the Wiki
thank you for your permission.

Ready...

* http://www.schach-computer.info/wiki/in ... ermaschine *
Best regards,
Micha

Excellent!
Thank you Micha
Highest Regards
Steve

Post by **Steve B** » Sun Dec 11, 2011 8:09 pm

Mythbuster wrote:Steve, so with the Excalibur and with the Wonder Machine you have the both ends of the 'Mephisto greatest machines' in your collection ...

Hi Sascha

Perhaps a Side By Side Comparison might be of some interest..

From First To Last Regards
Steve