The day the tabletops died

Reinfeld · Post by **Reinfeld** » Wed Jan 02, 2013 9:58 am

Based on my own rough reading, the moment in question is the release of de Koning's Chessmaster 4000 (1993 for Windows 3.1, 1995 for Win 95).

There are several barstool debates embedded here.

I base my impression on SSDF stats and my own eccentricity. Both are limited resources - more direct testing would resolve the question - but here are some stray thoughts:

1. Others (Steve, Larry, IvenGo) would have to check me on this perception, but when I say "tabletop," I draw a distinction between single-program machines and removable modules. This is my quirk alone - no one has to agree with me.

That definition cuts out a big chunk of Mephisto, including the Genius. However, it preserves the TASC machines, the Mephisto Atlanta and of course, the Berlin Pro/London. Lang still has his say.

2. Only the Lang machines could contend with CM 4000, and only the Genius could match it, closely followed by the Berlin Pro.

3. TASC, the RISC 2500 and the Montreux are mutated versions of the same beast - CM 4000. Tabletops never got stronger (until recently with the Phoenix/Revelation boards).

4. Surely the Atlanta is underappreciated: clearly the best Morsch box.

- R.

Post by **Steve B** » Wed Jan 02, 2013 1:17 pm

Reinfeld wrote:Based on my own rough reading, the moment in question is the release of de Koning's Chessmaster 4000 (1993 for Windows 3.1, 1995 for Win 95).

Interesting post as usual R

cant say the exact moment in history where the dreaded PC invasion ended the reign of the Dedicateds
what ever black day that was.. it Will certainly live in Infamy

i do remember that in 1993 when the Tasc 2.2 unit came out..it was hoped it would reverse the tide back to the dedicated's and was heralded as the Comeback of the Dedicated Chess Computer:

Interesting that de koning was not only the programmer for the PC Chessmaster ..he was also the guy that programed the Tasc

Having It Both Ways Regards
Steve

ricard60 · Post by **ricard60** » Wed Jan 02, 2013 5:30 pm

Reinfeld wrote:
3. TASC, the RISC 2500 and the Montreux are mutated versions of the same beast - CM 4000. Tabletops never got stronger (until recently with the Phoenix/Revelation boards).

- R.

If you go to this link tabletops are getting much stornger than CM 4000

http://www.hiarcs.net/forums/viewtopic. ... sc&start=0

IvenGO · Post by **IvenGO** » Thu Jan 03, 2013 6:20 am

What is TRUE dedicated chess computer for me personally: 1) must play only chess; 2) must not have active cooling; 3) must have hardware possibility to be powered from cells = for example, Berlin and Diamond could be in general, as Designer 2265/2325 or Star Diamond, but the fact that they dont is only a fault of manufacturer, so I count them as "true dedicated" too...

Only following these conditions make the competition between humans and computers fair and interesting; all other show the advantage of hardware's counting speed against nature brain but not of the software intelligence.

Reinfeld · Post by **Reinfeld** » Thu Jan 03, 2013 6:32 am

Ivengo's Third Element of a TRUE dedicated chess computer:

3) must have hardware possibility to be powered from cells = for example, Berlin and Diamond could be in general, as Designer 2265/2325 or Star Diamond, but the fact that they dont is only a fault of manufacturer, so I count them as "true dedicated" too...

Iven, I don't quite understand "powered from cells." Could you explain?

- R.

IvenGO · Post by **IvenGO** » Thu Jan 03, 2013 7:08 am

I meant any sort of batteries (AA / AAA / C / D, else). Because seems that ARM2/6 and 68020/30/60 could not be anyhow...

ricard60 · Post by **ricard60** » Thu Jan 03, 2013 11:21 am

For me dedicated chess machines can play only chess but does not matter if can not work with batteries example of dedicated without batteries:

Novag citrine, fidelity champion sensory chess challenger, TASC machines.

Also the stronger dedicated have some active or pasive cooling:
Phoenix machines,Mephisto Wundermaschine,Mysticum.

spacious_mind · Post by **spacious_mind** » Thu Jan 03, 2013 1:21 pm

IvenGO wrote:I meant any sort of batteries (AA / AAA / C / D, else). Because seems that ARM2/6 and 68020/30/60 could not be anyhow...

Ivan that is not a correct assumption. 68000 and 68020 modules can be played with batteries in a modular board for example. Most of them work.

Regards
Nick

IvenGO · Post by **IvenGO** » Thu Jan 03, 2013 3:15 pm

If they can (68020, etc.), than ok; but ARM2/6 and 68030/60 cant, right? And projects like Resurrection are just computers + chess boards - there's no "dedicated spirit" in it for me... Also Im against using HASH TABLES when playing vs human or other computer that doesnt have them - it gives an unfair advantage... so I prefer to buy models with possibility to switch this option OFF.

ricard60 · Post by **ricard60** » Thu Jan 03, 2013 9:54 pm

IvenGO wrote:If they can (68020, etc.), than ok; but ARM2/6 and 68030/60 cant, right? And projects like Resurrection are just computers + chess boards - there's no "dedicated spirit" in it for me...

The 68020 and the 68030/60 were the computers of that time, there were a lot of desk computers made out of them. If you want to build a dedicated chess machine now with those 68020 or 68030 probably it will not be possible because they are not made anymore so you have look for the processors of the computers today. If we go even farther on time the 6502 were the computer also of that time. So I believe the concept of dedicated chess machine must not be related to hardware because this has allways been changing. What does not change is the concept “only for playing chess” and that is the dedicated chess machine.

The other point is that chess software keeps improving and you need stronger hardware to run them so that is why in the evolution of dedicated chess machines we see a lot of them with different “elo” some stronger some weaker just like in humans.

Reinfeld · Post by **Reinfeld** » Fri Jan 04, 2013 7:55 am

I can't go all the way down Iven's road. I part ways with him on the battery question. I agree a dedicated should play chess and nothing else. I think a setup with a module connected to a board doesn't quite meet the standard. A dedicated machine should play only chess - but it shouldn't be a jukebox. If you can switch modules in and out, the dedicated factor loses value to me.

Citrine, RISC 2500 and Berlin Pro still count as dedicated machines for me, though they don't use batteries. In each case, the opponent is one internal brain, one program. Having said that, I'm still surprised that Citrine (among the newest dedicated machines) is so much weaker than its predecessors. How weak remains to be seen, but I intend to find out.

On hash tables, I'm torn. The recent mini-tourney I just ran with Obsidian, 2265, Milano and GK 2100 made it very clear that second-tier dedicated machines simply cannot play decent endgames without hash tables. In the later stages, faced with small advantages, they turn into idiots, repeatedly bumping against the horizon effect. This makes them beatable - very important, of course – but it also makes them boring. Few spectacles are drearier than a dedicated fiddling around for 40 moves because it can't see a six-move procedure.

- R.

Post by **Steve B** » Fri Jan 04, 2013 1:26 pm

Reinfeld wrote:I can't go all the way down Iven's road. I part ways with him on the battery question. I agree a dedicated should play chess and nothing else. I think a setup with a module connected to a board doesn't quite meet the standard. A dedicated machine should play only chess - but it shouldn't be a jukebox. If you can switch modules in and out, the dedicated factor loses value to me.

well i guess ill add my 2 cents in here
seems a bit harsh to me to exclude chess computers that use modules
you would have put companies like Mephisto and Scisys/Saitek out of business

the battery thingy is also a non issue for me
i dont see where the power supply has any impact on the status of a dedicated computer..nor do hash tables

my working definition has always been exactly as Ricardo defines it..

it must be able to play chess..ONLY..and not have the ability to do anything else
this excludes things like the DGT board hooked up to a PC
or a PC used just to play chess engines
i do own a DGT board(Serial interface) and XL clock but this was given to me as a gift by a well meaning although misguided family member

I also sense in the discussion that we might be mixing what particular members consider"collectible" or interesting to them and the notion of a dedicated chess computer
just because a particular feature of a dedicated computer is uninteresting(modules,hash tables..etcetc) does not mean the computer is not a dedicated computer
it does mean though that this particular feature renders the computer uninteresting or noncollectable to that individual

personally i do have an issue with the new wave of PC based Chess computers
with the Phoenix Res/Rev's i do like the craftsmanship and the fact that the modules are compatible with Mephisto boards
the Mysticum PC based computers just dont appeal to me cosmetically and i have no interest in them..but this does not mean i dont consider them to be true dedicated computers..which i do

Longer Then 2 cents i guess Regards
Steve

shiv · Post by **shiv** » Mon Jan 07, 2013 9:32 pm

Have a look at Picochess. http://jromang.github.com/Stockfish/ The last image on the page is useful to showcase its capabilities.

In short, you need a DGT board, a DGT XL clock and a small device (about the length of your finger). Once you connect these together, you get a chess computer which outputs moves, clock times, analysis to the DGT XL clock. There is no need for a PC or a display.

I think this covers the best of both worlds, it functions as a dedicated and only plays chess while at the same time enjoying new releases (newer versions of Stockfish and more functions).

Picochess is free for anyone to try modulo the cost of hardware (DGT board + DGT XL clock + small mini PC). The output is all to the DGT XL clock as already stated.

In my limited view, this feels like a good choice for a dedicated. A demonstration youtube video - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kWhmKEe6aBU

Disclaimer: I do develop for this project and might be biased

However, its a free project and I have no vested interest besides trying to replicate a dedicated computer for those who are not super wealthy.

Bryan Whitby · Post by **Bryan Whitby** » Tue Jan 08, 2013 10:32 am

The following photo is my 'SishFishPi' chess computer prototype.
It's a bit rough around the edges especially how I've incorporated the LCD into the frame but it's up and working so now we can go forward and build a decent board.

Why the name 'SishFishPi' well;

'Sish' is the name of the board software with communicates to the chess software and computer.
'Fish' is the chess software which is Stockfish.
'Pi' is the computer that runs everything which is a Raspberry PI.

Do I consider this to be a dedicated chess computer?
Well the Raspberry PI has been programmed to run Stockfish when it boots up so therefore you could say, yes it is a dedicated chess computer as it is now incapable of running any other type of program.
But you could reprogram it back to it's original state and then it becomes a normal Linux computer.

So no, not a true dedicated chess computer but a 'Hybrid' chess computer.
Bryan

shiv · Post by **shiv** » Tue Jan 08, 2013 5:43 pm

Chessmaster Ireland wrote:The following photo is my 'SishFishPi' chess computer prototype.
It's a bit rough around the edges especially how I've incorporated the LCD into the frame but it's up and working so now we can go forward and build a decent board.
---
Do I consider this to be a dedicated chess computer?
Well the Raspberry PI has been programmed to run Stockfish when it boots up so therefore you could say, yes it is a dedicated chess computer as it is now incapable of running any other type of program.
But you could reprogram it back to it's original state and then it becomes a normal Linux computer.

So no, not a true dedicated chess computer but a 'Hybrid' chess computer.
Bryan

Looks really cool. I have heard about the SishFishPi project before but did not look it up off late. This is a great solution for those who have hardware assembly skills. I on the other hand am terrified of assembly and prefer writing software while relying on the DGT board for hardware. You should consider offering this for custom order sales. I would definitely have been tempted.

I don't mind the hybrid name. The fact that its easier to reprogram such devices (SishFishPi, Picochess and others) should not count as a negative. After all, if you have a pure dedicated machine, internally there is still a reprogrammable EEPROM. Linux is now becoming the standard embedded device OS replacing vxworks (which old dedicated's likely used).

If one really wants, one can force the code of SishFishPi/Picochess on a hard to modify chip to make it purely dedicated. I for one, dont see the need or point to do so

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The day the tabletops died

The day the tabletops died

Re: The day the tabletops died