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Celadus
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 Posted: Sat Mar 16, 2013 3:30 pm Post subject: Designer 2000 and Excellence - The same program? |
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Do the Fidelity designer 2000 and the Excellence have the same program?
Has anyone played against either of these machines? What do you think?
Thanks |
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SirDave
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| Posted: Sat Mar 16, 2013 4:51 pm Post subject: Re: Designer 2000 and Excellence - The same program? |
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| Celadus wrote: | Do the Fidelity designer 2000 and the Excellence have the same program?
Has anyone played against either of these machines? What do you think?
Thanks |
They both have the same program and the Fidelity Designer 2100 has the Par Excellence program. |
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LWSteve
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Posts: 431
Location: WA USA
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| Posted: Sat Mar 16, 2013 11:38 pm Post subject: Re: Designer 2000 and Excellence - The same program? |
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| Celadus wrote: | Do the Fidelity designer 2000 and the Excellence have the same program?
Has anyone played against either of these machines? What do you think?
Thanks |
No they are not the same!
The Excellence runs at 4 MHZ elo 1841
The Designer 2000 runs at 3 MHz elo 1828
I have played against both.
Go with the Excellence even if you have to pay out a few more $$$
LWSteve |
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SirDave
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| Posted: Sun Mar 17, 2013 2:53 am Post subject: |
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The question was -do they have the same program- which they do.
But I take your point that they may not play exactly the same due to the CPU speed difference though I don't know whether the average human player could detect that small an ELO difference- I certainly don't have the skill to do so.
I will say that I prefer the form-factor/layout/look of the Designer 2000. |
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Steve B
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Full Name: Steve B
Location: New York City USofA
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| Posted: Sun Mar 17, 2013 4:35 am Post subject: |
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| SirDave wrote: | The question was -do they have the same program- which they do.
But I take your point that they may not play exactly the same due to the CPU speed difference though I don't know whether the average human player could detect that small an ELO difference- I certainly don't have the skill to do so.
I will say that I prefer the form-factor/layout/look of the Designer 2000. |
the Excellence was released in two versions
the commonly seen 3 Mhz and the far less common 4 Mhz
Computer Chess Reports(Fall/Winter 1988-1989) describes the FD2000 as having the same exact Par Excellence program(with a small change to the opening book) running at 3 Mhz instead of 5 Mhz for the Par
Interestingly the FD2000 and the Excellence 3 Mhz were rated exactly the same at 1754 by Selective Search Magazine
Stay The Course Regards
Steve |
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Monsieur Plastique
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Joined: 03 Jul 2008
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Location: On top of a hill in eastern Australia
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| Posted: Sun Mar 17, 2013 2:18 pm Post subject: |
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| SirDave wrote: | | I will say that I prefer the form-factor/layout/look of the Designer 2000. |
That's interesting Dave - I actually liked the older style, especially the bulbous ones ( Sensory 9, Mach series, etc). But in the end they are all plastique so all is good.
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Chess is like painting the Mona Lisa whilst walking through a minefield. |
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SirDave
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Location: Southern California USA
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| Posted: Sun Mar 17, 2013 9:48 pm Post subject: |
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| Monsieur Plastique wrote: | | SirDave wrote: | | I will say that I prefer the form-factor/layout/look of the Designer 2000. |
That's interesting Dave - I actually liked the older style, especially the bulbous ones ( Sensory 9, Mach series, etc). But in the end they are all plastique so all is good. |
I left out the important fact that I'm really talking about the Designer 2000 Display. Overall, I far prefer units with both LEDs and a display over those with just one or the other. |
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SirDave
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Location: Southern California USA
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| Posted: Sun Mar 17, 2013 10:28 pm Post subject: |
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| Steve B wrote: | | SirDave wrote: | The question was -do they have the same program- which they do.
But I take your point that they may not play exactly the same due to the CPU speed difference though I don't know whether the average human player could detect that small an ELO difference- I certainly don't have the skill to do so.
I will say that I prefer the form-factor/layout/look of the Designer 2000. |
the Excellence was released in two versions
the commonly seen 3 Mhz and the far less common 4 Mhz
Computer Chess Reports(Fall/Winter 1988-1989) describes the FD2000 as having the same exact Par Excellence program(with a small change to the opening book) running at 3 Mhz instead of 5 Mhz for the Par
Interestingly the FD2000 and the Excellence 3 Mhz were rated exactly the same at 1754 by Selective Search Magazine
Stay The Course Regards
Steve |
The waters appear to be particularly muddy on this subject. Even the information above seems to conflict where Selective Search says the FD2000 & Par Excellence have the same program, but then shows the FD2000 & Excellence (3mHz) having the exact same ELO.
This subject is discussed to some extent in this thread:
http://www.hiarcs.net/forums/viewtopic.php?p=50566
The thread starts with the following possible premises, based on information from the electronicchess site (where I got some of my own information):
1. Excellence was first. There are versions with 3MHz and 4MHz.
2. Par Excellence came next. One version, 5MHz.
Supposedly, Par Excellence is stronger.
Additional factors:
3. Designer 2000/Display contains the Excellence program. (with no mods?)
4. Designer 2100/Display/Chesster contains the Par Excellence program at 6 MHz. (with no mods?)
Ergo,
5. Designer 2000 is a clone of Excellence at 3 and 4MHz; (with no mods?)
6. Designer 2100 is a clone of Par Excellence at 6MHz(?) (with no mods?)
In that thread Mike Watters chimes in with ELO figures from Selective Search that show that Excellence 3mHz & Designer 2000 have the same ELO of 1754 (as you pointed out Steve).
But then Spacious Mind (Nick) mentions that he suspects from his experience playing both machines that the Designer 2000 just might play better more consistently than even the Par Excellence. He gives a link to a match where the Designer 2000 loses to the Par Excellence and the Novag Constellation, but ends up substantially beating them both in the final standings!
Still, more than one thread has associated the Designer 2000 program with the Excellence program so that I had come to accept that as fact. All things said, I still suspect that that may be true given that Selective Search gave them the same ELO. I wish there was someone from the old Fidelity that could put this to rest for once and for all. |
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Steve B
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Full Name: Steve B
Location: New York City USofA
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| Posted: Sun Mar 17, 2013 11:39 pm Post subject: |
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| SirDave wrote: | | Steve B wrote: | | SirDave wrote: | The question was -do they have the same program- which they do.
But I take your point that they may not play exactly the same due to the CPU speed difference though I don't know whether the average human player could detect that small an ELO difference- I certainly don't have the skill to do so.
I will say that I prefer the form-factor/layout/look of the Designer 2000. |
the Excellence was released in two versions
the commonly seen 3 Mhz and the far less common 4 Mhz
Computer Chess Reports(Fall/Winter 1988-1989) describes the FD2000 as having the same exact Par Excellence program(with a small change to the opening book) running at 3 Mhz instead of 5 Mhz for the Par
Interestingly the FD2000 and the Excellence 3 Mhz were rated exactly the same at 1754 by Selective Search Magazine
Stay The Course Regards
Steve |
The waters appear to be particularly muddy on this subject. Even the information above seems to conflict where Selective Search says the FD2000 & Par Excellence have the same program, but then shows the FD2000 & Excellence (3mHz) having the exact same ELO.
This subject is discussed to some extent in this thread:
http://www.hiarcs.net/forums/viewtopic.php?p=50566
The thread starts with the following possible premises, based on information from the electronicchess site (where I got some of my own information):
1. Excellence was first. There are versions with 3MHz and 4MHz.
2. Par Excellence came next. One version, 5MHz.
Supposedly, Par Excellence is stronger.
Additional factors:
3. Designer 2000/Display contains the Excellence program. (with no mods?)
4. Designer 2100/Display/Chesster contains the Par Excellence program at 6 MHz. (with no mods?)
Ergo,
5. Designer 2000 is a clone of Excellence at 3 and 4MHz; (with no mods?)
6. Designer 2100 is a clone of Par Excellence at 6MHz(?) (with no mods?)
In that thread Mike Watters chimes in with ELO figures from Selective Search that show that Excellence 3mHz & Designer 2000 have the same ELO of 1754 (as you pointed out Steve).
But then Spacious Mind (Nick) mentions that he suspects from his experience playing both machines that the Designer 2000 just might play better more consistently than even the Par Excellence. He gives a link to a match where the Designer 2000 loses to the Par Excellence and the Novag Constellation, but ends up substantially beating them both in the final standings!
Still, more than one thread has associated the Designer 2000 program with the Excellence program so that I had come to accept that as fact. All things said, I still suspect that that may be true given that Selective Search gave them the same ELO. I wish there was someone from the old Fidelity that could put this to rest for once and for all. |
In that same CCR article written by Larry Kaufman ,he discusses the reasons Fidelity chose to market the "Designer" Series in the first place
As was well known at the time the Par achieved an inflated Computer Chess Rating Agency(CCRA) rating of 2100 under dubious circumstances
Fidelity knew it made no sense to develop and market a computer with an improved Par engine because in all likelihood it would get a rating lower then the Par's Inflated rating
so they turned their attention instead to Marketing the Par program in a newer more flashy housing(Designer)
so we have a D2100 which is a Par running at 6 Mhz
and a D2000 which is a Par running at 3mhz
and then the Des.Display models as well
not sure if Kaufman wrote this from speaking with Fidelity directly or he was theorizing ..although it does read more like a statement of fact over mere speculation
seems to make some sense to me because it does appear a bit more reasonable that Fidelity would release the 1988 D's with a 1986 Engine(Par) over a 1985 Engine (Excellence)
The Plot Thickens Regards
Steve |
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Celadus
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Joined: 06 May 2012
Posts: 134
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| Posted: Mon Mar 18, 2013 1:19 pm Post subject: |
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| Steve B wrote: | | SirDave wrote: | | Steve B wrote: | | SirDave wrote: | The question was -do they have the same program- which they do.
But I take your point that they may not play exactly the same due to the CPU speed difference though I don't know whether the average human player could detect that small an ELO difference- I certainly don't have the skill to do so.
I will say that I prefer the form-factor/layout/look of the Designer 2000. |
the Excellence was released in two versions
the commonly seen 3 Mhz and the far less common 4 Mhz
Computer Chess Reports(Fall/Winter 1988-1989) describes the FD2000 as having the same exact Par Excellence program(with a small change to the opening book) running at 3 Mhz instead of 5 Mhz for the Par
Interestingly the FD2000 and the Excellence 3 Mhz were rated exactly the same at 1754 by Selective Search Magazine
Stay The Course Regards
Steve |
The waters appear to be particularly muddy on this subject. Even the information above seems to conflict where Selective Search says the FD2000 & Par Excellence have the same program, but then shows the FD2000 & Excellence (3mHz) having the exact same ELO.
This subject is discussed to some extent in this thread:
http://www.hiarcs.net/forums/viewtopic.php?p=50566
The thread starts with the following possible premises, based on information from the electronicchess site (where I got some of my own information):
1. Excellence was first. There are versions with 3MHz and 4MHz.
2. Par Excellence came next. One version, 5MHz.
Supposedly, Par Excellence is stronger.
Additional factors:
3. Designer 2000/Display contains the Excellence program. (with no mods?)
4. Designer 2100/Display/Chesster contains the Par Excellence program at 6 MHz. (with no mods?)
Ergo,
5. Designer 2000 is a clone of Excellence at 3 and 4MHz; (with no mods?)
6. Designer 2100 is a clone of Par Excellence at 6MHz(?) (with no mods?)
In that thread Mike Watters chimes in with ELO figures from Selective Search that show that Excellence 3mHz & Designer 2000 have the same ELO of 1754 (as you pointed out Steve).
But then Spacious Mind (Nick) mentions that he suspects from his experience playing both machines that the Designer 2000 just might play better more consistently than even the Par Excellence. He gives a link to a match where the Designer 2000 loses to the Par Excellence and the Novag Constellation, but ends up substantially beating them both in the final standings!
Still, more than one thread has associated the Designer 2000 program with the Excellence program so that I had come to accept that as fact. All things said, I still suspect that that may be true given that Selective Search gave them the same ELO. I wish there was someone from the old Fidelity that could put this to rest for once and for all. |
In that same CCR article written by Larry Kaufman ,he discusses the reasons Fidelity chose to market the "Designer" Series in the first place
As was well known at the time the Par achieved an inflated Computer Chess Rating Agency(CCRA) rating of 2100 under dubious circumstances
Fidelity knew it made no sense to develop and market a computer with an improved Par engine because in all likelihood it would get a rating lower then the Par's Inflated rating
so they turned their attention instead to Marketing the Par program in a newer more flashy housing(Designer)
so we have a D2100 which is a Par running at 6 Mhz
and a D2000 which is a Par running at 3mhz
and then the Des.Display models as well
not sure if Kaufman wrote this from speaking with Fidelity directly or he was theorizing ..although it does read more like a statement of fact over mere speculation
seems to make some sense to me because it does appear a bit more reasonable that Fidelity would release the 1988 D's with a 1986 Engine(Par) over a 1985 Engine (Excellence)
The Plot Thickens Regards
Steve |
The Par excellence apparently has a very narrow and limited book.
The D2000 in addition to it's opening book has the option to select a number of other opening moves thus giving more variety.
This would be more of a necessity than a feature if the opening book is narrow and limited.
The D2000 display has a button "cancel book". This option cancels the tournament book and gives access to a larger and wider book.
The D2000 series is the Par Excellence program. |
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Larry
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Joined: 01 Aug 2007
Posts: 1775
Location: Gosford, NSW Australia
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Steve B
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Joined: 29 Jul 2007
Posts: 8659
Full Name: Steve B
Location: New York City USofA
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| Posted: Fri Mar 22, 2013 11:14 am Post subject: |
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| Larry wrote: |
A voice Excellence!...I confess I didn't know there was such an animal.
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Hey Larry
Me thinks you need to expand your Internet sources for these not so rare computers
not only is there a Voice Excellence there is also an Excel Display:
of course both of these computers have been on my web site for ages
another place to see all known Fidelity model numbers is Zanchetta's Fidelity Model page:
http://www.zanchetta.net/echecs/referencesfidelity.aspx
and finally for the specs on the Excel Display and Voice..
Try Kurt Kispert's Fidelity Page:
http://www.schachcomputer.at/fidelit2.htm
both the Excel Voice and Excel Display have the same hardware specs
all three computers (Exellence,Excel voice and Excel Display had the same exact owners manual:
BookMarking Regards
Steve |
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spacious_mind
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Joined: 01 Aug 2007
Posts: 3263
Location: Alabama
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| Posted: Fri Mar 22, 2013 11:31 am Post subject: |
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Hi Steve,
You mentioned D2100 at 6 MHz and D2000 at 3 MHz. In addition to this you also have the D2100 without the Display. This one only has 5 MHz. Which is a little strange since both the D2000 with and without Display have the same MHz but not with the D2100.
Regarding the D2000 Display, an online Tournament was held about 3 years ago where the D2000 did in fact play consistently better than the Par Excellence. In this tournament Designer did beat Par Excellence and Constellation 3.6.
http://www.schach-computer.info/wiki/index.php/Online_Oldie_Turnier_2009
Perhaps we should come up with some tests to try and really find out which is what!
Regards
Nick
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Nick |
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Steve B
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Joined: 29 Jul 2007
Posts: 8659
Full Name: Steve B
Location: New York City USofA
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| Posted: Fri Mar 22, 2013 11:40 am Post subject: |
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| spacious_mind wrote: | Hi Steve,
You mentioned D2100 at 6 MHz and D2000 at 3 MHz. In addition to this you also have the D2100 without the Display. This one only has 5 MHz. Which is a little strange since both the D2000 with and without Display have the same MHz but not with the D2100.
Regarding the D2000 Display, an online Tournament was held about 3 years ago where the D2000 did in fact play consistently better than the Par Excellence. In this tournament Designer did beat Par Excellence and Constellation 3.6.
http://www.schach-computer.info/wiki/index.php/Online_Oldie_Turnier_2009
Perhaps we should come up with some tests to try and really find out which is what!
Regards
Nick |
Hi Nick
the Designer series had a slightly improved book over the Par
i think its possible that the book is perhaps making the difference in game results?
still the Main issue was if the Designers had the same engine as the Excellence
at this point i will go with...
Designers =Par Engine with a modified book
Leaning to a case closed position regards
Steve |
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SirDave
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Joined: 09 Sep 2010
Posts: 595
Location: Southern California USA
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| Posted: Fri Mar 22, 2013 4:08 pm Post subject: |
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| spacious_mind wrote: | Hi Steve,
You mentioned D2100 at 6 MHz and D2000 at 3 MHz. In addition to this you also have the D2100 without the Display. This one only has 5 MHz. Which is a little strange since both the D2000 with and without Display have the same MHz but not with the D2100.
Regarding the D2000 Display, an online Tournament was held about 3 years ago where the D2000 did in fact play consistently better than the Par Excellence. In this tournament Designer did beat Par Excellence and Constellation 3.6.
http://www.schach-computer.info/wiki/index.php/Online_Oldie_Turnier_2009
Perhaps we should come up with some tests to try and really find out which is what!
Regards
Nick |
Hi Nick,
I mentioned that tournament above (I believe you played the D2000). I said it was interesting that Par & Constellation beat the D2000 individually, but D2000 did substantially better in the final standings, but now I realize that I misread the results and D2000 did beat both of them individually!
As Steve says, maybe it's the book, but I'm still on the fence on this one. |
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