Oh, Atlanta
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Oh, Atlanta
Just a sidebar to the rating-test thread.
Evidently, the Atlanta will run on batteries, per Wiki-Elo. (Whoops**)
If so, the Atlanta appears to answer two interesting questions:
1. What's the strongest dedicated machine that runs on batteries?**
2. What's the strongest Morsch machine available, *including* modules (excluding overclocking and other "bootleg" modifications)?
Once all of Nick's tests are complete, I'll be interested to see if Atlanta retains this position.
(I know not everyone will agree with this, but I tend to draw a distinction between modules and machines that play straight out of the box with one embedded engine. Just me.)
If point 1 and 2 above are true, the Atlanta is kick-ass strong, underappreciated and well worth owning. I'd be interested to hear reviews from those who are familiar with it. A match between Atlanta and Montreux or RISC 2500 would be very interesting; but I would suggest an RISC with the 2MB RAM upgrade.*
- R.
* Larry, he who possesses all three RISC 2500 models, has posted in the past about the different solving speeds associated with those upgrades. It's probably a hair-splitting distinction, but I'd be interested to know whether the 2MB version would outplay its brethren (and Montreux) in a series of games.
** Whoops - looks like I misread the Wiki-Elo translation. The Atlanta will run on a battery-powered adapter, but not exclusively on batteries, if I understand correctly. However, the bigger point (strongest Morsch machine) still appears to be solid.
Evidently, the Atlanta will run on batteries, per Wiki-Elo. (Whoops**)
If so, the Atlanta appears to answer two interesting questions:
1. What's the strongest dedicated machine that runs on batteries?**
2. What's the strongest Morsch machine available, *including* modules (excluding overclocking and other "bootleg" modifications)?
Once all of Nick's tests are complete, I'll be interested to see if Atlanta retains this position.
(I know not everyone will agree with this, but I tend to draw a distinction between modules and machines that play straight out of the box with one embedded engine. Just me.)
If point 1 and 2 above are true, the Atlanta is kick-ass strong, underappreciated and well worth owning. I'd be interested to hear reviews from those who are familiar with it. A match between Atlanta and Montreux or RISC 2500 would be very interesting; but I would suggest an RISC with the 2MB RAM upgrade.*
- R.
* Larry, he who possesses all three RISC 2500 models, has posted in the past about the different solving speeds associated with those upgrades. It's probably a hair-splitting distinction, but I'd be interested to know whether the 2MB version would outplay its brethren (and Montreux) in a series of games.
** Whoops - looks like I misread the Wiki-Elo translation. The Atlanta will run on a battery-powered adapter, but not exclusively on batteries, if I understand correctly. However, the bigger point (strongest Morsch machine) still appears to be solid.
"You have, let us say, a promising politician, a rising artist that you wish to destroy. Dagger or bomb are archaic and unreliable - but teach him, inoculate him with chess."
– H.G. Wells
– H.G. Wells
- spacious_mind
- Senior Member
- Posts: 4018
- Joined: Wed Aug 01, 2007 10:20 pm
- Location: Alabama
- Contact:
Re: Oh, Atlanta
No Atlanta does play on 6 AA batteries.Reinfeld wrote: ** Whoops - looks like I misread the Wiki-Elo translation. The Atlanta will run on a battery-powered adapter, but not exclusively on batteries, if I understand correctly. However, the bigger point (strongest Morsch machine) still appears to be solid.
Regards,
Nick
Nick
Guys, the Montreux/risc2500 units do not run on batteries, only adaptor.
The Atlanta runs on either batteries or adaptor.
Berlin Pro runs only on adaptor.
I think we can say with confidence that the Atlanta is the strongest
battery powered dedicated chess computer ever made.
Larry
PS. Modules can run on batteries via a battery powered Exclusive board,
but I'm assuming we are excluding them simply because they are modules.
The Atlanta runs on either batteries or adaptor.
Berlin Pro runs only on adaptor.
I think we can say with confidence that the Atlanta is the strongest
battery powered dedicated chess computer ever made.
Larry
PS. Modules can run on batteries via a battery powered Exclusive board,
but I'm assuming we are excluding them simply because they are modules.
Re: Oh, Atlanta
This of course assumes the Montreux to be the standard 128kb unit,Reinfeld wrote:
* Larry, he who possesses all three RISC 2500 models, has posted in the past about the different solving speeds associated with those upgrades. It's probably a hair-splitting distinction, but I'd be interested to know whether the 2MB version would outplay its brethren (and Montreux) in a series of games.
which as we know is the only RAM setting available in the released
Montreux. I personally have not had the curiosity to play risc2500 and
Montreux against each other, since they are virtually the same machine.
I have never played 2mb risc against 128kb risc. This is because I only
have the patience for fast games, where the ram setting probably would
not count.
The risc2500 came in at least three versions, which were no doubt
different only in a few very minor adjustments, resulting in a negligible
strength difference. We can look on the Montreux as the next version
of the risc2500 in a different color casing. The Englishman Ken Gorman
told me in an email once that the Montreux was released to rectify an
inbuilt problem in the risc2500 which caused it to freeze occasionally.
The Montreux New York Edition, released in honour of a tournament
in New York, should have included a much higher clock speed and 2mb
ram. Had this been the case, it would by now be a very highly sought
after unit selling for big bucks at auction. Hypothetical, I know...
L
Larry said:
Separately, regarding RISC 2500 and its multiple versions...
Larry said this:
However, here's a couple of reasons why it might be worth it:
1. Montreux has a far larger opening book (380,000) than RISC (100,000).
Testing the 128K models against each other might show whether the book is any kind of factor. Testing the Montreux against the 2 MB RISC might show whether the bigger RAM chip neutralizes the opening-book factor. Then again, the differences might be so negligible that it's not worth measurement. Still, I wonder.
2. I suspect (but do not know) that Wiki-Elo's ratings are based on the RISC 128K model. Is the 2 MB version *stronger*? If so, by how much?
3. If it isn't obvious already, I'm aiming at the Plastic World Championship, a matter that should consume us all. Let's forget the wooden divas and their ceaseless demands for attention, dusting and coddling. Only four machines matter in this argument:
- Berlin Pro
- Montreux
- RISC 2500
- Atlanta
I say this with all due respect to the tragic Star Diamond, the Alexei Shirov of tabletops. Love that machine - but it ranks just below these monsters. Fidelity, sweet old Fidelity, brings up the rear
Same goes for the Berlin Pro London, it seems - strong, but not quite as strong as its father, if Wiki-Elo can be trusted.
And here's where the RISC versions come in. You'd have to start with a 2 MB RISC v Montreux and go from there. Which machine gets to participate?
The ELO gap for the four machines above is about 30-40 points. These are small distinctions.
Wiki-Elo ranking (Aktiv) looks like this:
1. Berlin Pro - 2284
2. Atlanta - 2267
3. Montreux - 2265
4. RISC 2500 (128 KB) - 2241
My personal ranking (an average of averages, including SSDF and Selective, as well as Wiki) looks like this:
1. Berlin Pro - 2242
2. RISC 2500 (128KB) - 2234
3. Montreux - 2231
4. Atlanta - 2214
- R.
So let me ask the other big question again: Is Atlanta the strongest of all Morsch machines?I think we can say with confidence that the Atlanta is the strongest
battery powered dedicated chess computer ever made.
Larry
Separately, regarding RISC 2500 and its multiple versions...
Larry said this:
By "curiosity," I suspect you mean "patience." Totally understandable.I personally have not had the curiosity to play risc2500 and
Montreux against each other, since they are virtually the same machine.
I have never played 2mb risc against 128kb risc. This is because I only
have the patience for fast games, where the ram setting probably would
not count.
However, here's a couple of reasons why it might be worth it:
1. Montreux has a far larger opening book (380,000) than RISC (100,000).
Testing the 128K models against each other might show whether the book is any kind of factor. Testing the Montreux against the 2 MB RISC might show whether the bigger RAM chip neutralizes the opening-book factor. Then again, the differences might be so negligible that it's not worth measurement. Still, I wonder.
2. I suspect (but do not know) that Wiki-Elo's ratings are based on the RISC 128K model. Is the 2 MB version *stronger*? If so, by how much?
3. If it isn't obvious already, I'm aiming at the Plastic World Championship, a matter that should consume us all. Let's forget the wooden divas and their ceaseless demands for attention, dusting and coddling. Only four machines matter in this argument:
- Berlin Pro
- Montreux
- RISC 2500
- Atlanta
I say this with all due respect to the tragic Star Diamond, the Alexei Shirov of tabletops. Love that machine - but it ranks just below these monsters. Fidelity, sweet old Fidelity, brings up the rear
Same goes for the Berlin Pro London, it seems - strong, but not quite as strong as its father, if Wiki-Elo can be trusted.
And here's where the RISC versions come in. You'd have to start with a 2 MB RISC v Montreux and go from there. Which machine gets to participate?
The ELO gap for the four machines above is about 30-40 points. These are small distinctions.
Wiki-Elo ranking (Aktiv) looks like this:
1. Berlin Pro - 2284
2. Atlanta - 2267
3. Montreux - 2265
4. RISC 2500 (128 KB) - 2241
My personal ranking (an average of averages, including SSDF and Selective, as well as Wiki) looks like this:
1. Berlin Pro - 2242
2. RISC 2500 (128KB) - 2234
3. Montreux - 2231
4. Atlanta - 2214
- R.
"You have, let us say, a promising politician, a rising artist that you wish to destroy. Dagger or bomb are archaic and unreliable - but teach him, inoculate him with chess."
– H.G. Wells
– H.G. Wells
Yes, Atlanta is clearly the strongest of all Morsch machines.Reinfeld wrote:
So let me ask the other big question again: Is Atlanta the strongest of all Morsch machines?
Separately, regarding RISC 2500 and its multiple versions...
1. Montreux has a far larger opening book (380,000) than RISC (100,000).
Testing the 128K models against each other might show whether the book is any kind of factor. Testing the Montreux against the 2 MB RISC might show whether the bigger RAM chip neutralizes the opening-book factor. Then again, the differences might be so negligible that it's not worth measurement. Still, I wonder.
2. I suspect (but do not know) that Wiki-Elo's ratings are based on the RISC 128K model. Is the 2 MB version *stronger*? If so, by how much?
And here's where the RISC versions come in. You'd have to start with a 2 MB RISC v Montreux and go from there. Which machine gets to participate?
Regarding the size of Montreux's opening book, we had this out on
the forum maybe a year ago. We could not find any official documentation
anywhere to confirm this. I remember someone producing a document
from the mid 1990's which mentioned an opening book way smaller
than 300,000 half moves. Here again we are only going on the Wiki
claim, which is someone's guesstimate that was passed around until
it was accepted as fact. The huge opening book assumption is linked
to Montreux's 256kb rom, compared to risc2500's 128kb rom. A very
knowledgeable guy told us that a good part of Montreux's
256kb rom is empty.
Referring to: http://www.schachcomputer.info/html/ssdf.html
we can see that the 128kb ram risc2500 is only 8elo below the upgraded
Montreux 512kb ram. Be assured that there is a sharply diminishing
return on ram upgrade size, ie, a 512kb ram upgrade is darned near
as beneficial as 2mg upgrade. I have heard from more than one source
that the estimated elo gain from 128kb to 2mb is about 40elo. It does
depend heavily on the time controls. At very fast games, there is
likely hardly any difference, at 'Aktiv' there will be some difference, and
at 40 moves in 90 minutes, eg, the difference will be the full 40elo.
We have had over the years a number of comments about the
risc2500/montreux saga. One guy called the integrity of SSDF ratings
into question, remembering that the initial Montreux rating was below
the earlier risc2500, so they (SSDF), resorted to giving Montreux weaker
opponents to jack it's rating up, and thereby help it's sales along.
It is an ongoing mystery to me as well, because almost nowhere do they
seem to want to specify the ram setting of the risc2500. Also, a LOT of
Montreux's are upgraded, and by some definition "modified".
Playing games between my 128kb risc and my Montreux presents me
with a little problem. My Montreux has 2mb ram. My other two risc2500's
are both with upgraded ram. This means that I would have to take the
backs off two machines, swap ram chips around, and reset jumpers,
play the games, then do everything in reverse. I'm not sure I'm willing
to do that at this time.
I'm sure we will get to the bottom of the matter one way or another.
L
Hello,
But 380.000 halfmoves? Mephisto marketing? I don't know.
Following openings can be found in the programs:
A look at the CSS:
and
Risc 2500 BT2630 Test / 2 MB and 512 KB
Yes, I would agree.
If you want games (Risc, Montreux...), no problem.
Best regards,
Micha
Yes, 40% are empty. The Montreux opening book is 33% larger.Larry wrote:A very
knowledgeable guy told us that a good part of Montreux's
256kb rom is empty.
But 380.000 halfmoves? Mephisto marketing? I don't know.
Following openings can be found in the programs:
Code: Select all
Mephisto Montreux Openings Saitek Risc 2500 Openings (V1.03/1.04)
Sicilian Defence Spanish Opening
Najdorf Variation Zaitsev Variation
Polugayevski Variation Breyer Variation
Poisened pawn Variation Marshall Gambit
Fischer Variation Open Defence
Byrne Variation Berlin Variation
Zagreb Variation Dilworth Variation
Scheveningen Variation Trifunovic Variation
Richter-Rauzer Attack Riga Variation
Sozin Attack Walbrodt Variation
Boleslavski Variation Centre Attack
Dragon Variation Anderssen Attack
Moscow Variation English Attack
Taimanov Variation Steinitz Defence Deferred
Accelerated Dragon Exchange Variation
Rossolimo Variation Steinitz Defence
Pin Variation Cordel Variation
Paulsen Variation Konikowski Variation
Kelly Variation Berlin Defence
Nimzowitsch Variation Schliemann Gambit
Wing Gambit Bird Defence
Morra Gambit Italian Game
Closed Variation Mueller Attack
Alapin Variation Giuoco Piano
Keres Variation Evans Gambit
Grand Prix Attacks Hungarian Defence
Two Knights Defence Two knights Defence
Canal Variation Four Knights Opening
Max Lange Attack Belgrade Gambit
Classical Variation Leipzig Gambit
Traxler Variation Scotch Game
Italian Game Ponziani Opening
Evans Gambit Petrov Defence
Hungarian Defence Steinitz Variation
Four Knights Opening Lasker Variation
Italian Variation Nimzowitsch Variation
€Rubinstein Variation Cochrane Gambit
Scotch Game Paulsen Variation
Classical Variation Philidor Defence
Mieses Variation Latvian Gambit
Scotch Four Knights Game Damiano Defence
Goering Gambit Queen's Pawn Counter-Gambit
Scotch Gambit King's Gambit
Spanish Opening Vienna Game
Schliemann Gambit Centre Game
Cordel Defence Bishop's Opening
Berlin Defence Sicilian Defence
Cozio Defence Alapin Variation
Marshall Gambit Rossolimo Variation
Open Defence Accelerated Dragon
Dilworth Variation Maroczy Variation
Riga Variation Dragon Variation
Centre Attack Scheveningen Variation
Exchange Variation Najdorf Variation
Bird Defence Nimzowitsch Variation
Ponziani Opening O'Kelly Variation
Latvian Gambit Closed Variation
Petrov Defence Grand Prix Attack
Steinitz Variation Wing Gambit
Four Knights Opening Keres Variation
Three Knights Opening Morra Gambit
Philidor Defence Caro-Kann
King's Gambit Nimzowitsch Variation
Kieseritsky Gambit Capablanca Variation
Berlin Defence Knight Variation
Hungarian Defence Fianchetto System
Brentano Defence Panov Variation
Paulsen Defence Advance Variation
Long Whip Two Knights Variation
Allgaier Gambit Pirc Defence
Hanstein Gambit Austrian Attack
Hanstein Gambit Classical Variation
Philidor Gambit Kholmov Variation
Polerio (Muzio) McLean Attack Byrne Variation
Lolli Gambit Czech System
Herzfeld Gambit Centre Counter Game
Ghulam Kassim Gambit French Defence
Rosentreter Gambit Winawer Variation
Euwe Defence Alekhine Gambit
Modern Defence Classical Defence
Fischer Defence Steinitz Variation
Becker Defence Burn Variation
Schallopp Defence MacCutcheon Variation
Bishop's Gambit Rubinstein Variation
Classical Defence Tarrasch Variation
Mason Gambit Alekhine Defence
Petrov Gambit King's Fianchetto
Breyer Gambit Queen's Fianchetto
Falkbeer Countergambit Nimzowitsch Defence
Nimzowitsch C.gambit Declined St. George Defence
Vienna Game Slav Defence
Bishop's Opening Dutch Variation
Centre Game Carlsbad Variation
French Defence Wiesbaden Variation
Winawer Variation Steiner Variation
Petrosian Defence Geller gambit
Alekhine Gambit Meraner Variation
Classical Defence Schlechter Variation
Steinitz Variation Exchange Variation
MacCutcheon Variation Breyer Variation
Classical Variation Winawer Counter-Gambit
Burn Variation Exchange Variation
Rubinstein Variation Queen's Gambit Accepted
Advanced Variation� Vienna Variation
Tarrasch Variation Queen's Gambit
Exchange Variation Tartakower Variation
Caro-Kann Ragozin Variation
Panov Variation Exchange Variation
Alekhine Defence Tarrasch Defence
King's Fianchetto Chigorin Defence
Austrian Attack Albin Counter-Gambit
Centre Counter Game Marshall Variation
Czech System London System
Pirc Defence Blackmar-Diemer Gambit
Nimzowitsch Defence Nimzo-Indian Defence
Queen's Fianchetto Classical Variation
Nimzo-Indian Defence Rubinstein Variation
Classical Variation Leningrad Variation
Rubinstein Variation Modern Benon
Leningrad Variation Taimanov Variation
Queen's Indian Defence Queen's Indian Defence
Petrosian Variation Bogo-Indian Defence
Bogo-Indian Defence Catalan Opening
Catalan Opening Budapest Gambit
Budapest Gambit Grue�nfeld Defence
Wolga Gambit Exchange Variation
Benoni Wall Sevilla Variation
King's Indian Defence King's Indian Defence
Grue�nfeld Defence Averbakh Variation
London System Glicoric System
Torre Attack Exchange Variation
Trompowski Attack Old Indian Defence
Queen's Gambit Old Indian Defence
Tarrasch Defence Wolga Gambit
Schara-Hennig Gambit Benoni Wall
Semi-Slav The Vulture
Chigorin Defence Torre Attack
Slav Defence Trompowsky Attack
Winawer Countergambit Dutch Defence
Exchange Variation Staunton Gambit
Queen's Gambit Accepted Polisch Defence
Alekhine Variation Barcza Opening
Albin Countergambit Reti Opening
Austrian Defence Lisitsin Gambit
Blackmar-Diemer Gambit English Opening
Dutch Defence Mikenas Variation
Staunton Gambit Nimzowitsch-Larsen Attack
Charlick Gambit Orang Utan Opening
English Opening Heinrichsen Opening
Opening Grob Opening
Barcza Opening Bird System
Lisitsin Gambit Saragossa Opening
Bird System
From Gambit
Nimzowitsch-Larsen Attack
Grob Opening
Orang Utan Opening
Heinrichsen Opening
King's Fianchetto Opening
Van 't Kruijs Opening
I have heard from more than one source
that the estimated elo gain from 128kb to 2mb is about 40elo. It does
depend heavily on the time controls.
A look at the CSS:
and
Risc 2500 BT2630 Test / 2 MB and 512 KB
No difference (128K <-> 2MB) at "aktiv".at 'Aktiv' there will be some difference
at 40 moves in 90 minutes, eg, the difference will be the full 40elo.
Yes, I would agree.
If you want games (Risc, Montreux...), no problem.
Best regards,
Micha
Sorry, the diagrams:
Best regards,
Micha
- 1...Kb8 - remis
- 1.Nb6 - white wins
- 1.Kg3 - remis
- 1.Kh8 - remis
- 1.Kb1 - white wins
- 1.c7 - white wins
- 1.Ke6 - remis
- 1.Kg6 - remis
- 1.Ba7 - white wins
Best regards,
Micha
Hi Larry,
no problem.
This is the BT-2630-Test (Bednorz-Tönissen-Test / Calculation on 2630 Elo)
You can find the link here: The test results can be found at the bottom of the page. Two resolutions are available: The tables should be in the wiki, but I'm too lazy. Perhaps in the coming days...
Five entries you can find for the Saitek Risc 2500.
BT 2630 - Seite 1:
Micha
no problem.
This is the BT-2630-Test (Bednorz-Tönissen-Test / Calculation on 2630 Elo)
You can find the link here: The test results can be found at the bottom of the page. Two resolutions are available: The tables should be in the wiki, but I'm too lazy. Perhaps in the coming days...
Five entries you can find for the Saitek Risc 2500.
BT 2630 - Seite 1:
- 2316 Test-Elo | 2 MB offensiv
2310 Test-Elo | 512 KB offensiv
- 2280 Test-Elo | 2 MB activ
2271 Test-Elo | 2 MB normal
2240 Test-Elo | 128 KB normal
Micha
Yes, blast it, I got sucked in: picked up a (reportedly) new-in-the-box Atlanta from the dreaded auction god.
I couldn't stop myself. I've been casually searching for a year, and I've never even seen one used. The damage: roughly 600 USD.
I blame Steve, because he once advised me that new is always better - and Larry, because he answered two questions I asked a year ago in this thread:
Question A: Is Atlanta the strongest of all Morsch machines?
Larry:
Question B: What is the strongest dedicated that will run on batteries?
Larry:
The Atlanta gets me four fifths of the way to the Plastic World Cup, a category I created for hobby rationalization purposes:
Kittinger
- Star Diamond (aka Star Sapphire)
OWNED
de Koning
- RISC 2500 2 MB
OWNED
Morsch
- Atlanta
OWNED!
Spracklen
- Designer 2325 (Mach IV)
OWNED
Lang
- Berlin Pro
??
One of these days, I'll snatch a Berlin Pro, and my life will be completely wasted.
- R.
I couldn't stop myself. I've been casually searching for a year, and I've never even seen one used. The damage: roughly 600 USD.
I blame Steve, because he once advised me that new is always better - and Larry, because he answered two questions I asked a year ago in this thread:
Question A: Is Atlanta the strongest of all Morsch machines?
Larry:
Yes, Atlanta is clearly the strongest of all Morsch machines.
Question B: What is the strongest dedicated that will run on batteries?
Larry:
OK. That's why it was worth it to me. I love plastic and I love strength. I can't store wood, and I can't justify the expense. I have the Mephisto/Saitek Master, but it clearly ranks second on the Morsch meter.I think we can say with confidence that the Atlanta is the strongest
battery powered dedicated chess computer ever made.
The Atlanta gets me four fifths of the way to the Plastic World Cup, a category I created for hobby rationalization purposes:
Kittinger
- Star Diamond (aka Star Sapphire)
OWNED
de Koning
- RISC 2500 2 MB
OWNED
Morsch
- Atlanta
OWNED!
Spracklen
- Designer 2325 (Mach IV)
OWNED
Lang
- Berlin Pro
??
One of these days, I'll snatch a Berlin Pro, and my life will be completely wasted.
- R.
"You have, let us say, a promising politician, a rising artist that you wish to destroy. Dagger or bomb are archaic and unreliable - but teach him, inoculate him with chess."
– H.G. Wells
– H.G. Wells
Congrats on the Atlanta. I think you paid 450 euro, just 10 euro moreReinfeld wrote:Yes, blast it, I got sucked in: picked up a (reportedly) new-in-the-box Atlanta from the dreaded auction god.
- R.
than I paid for my Atlanta as a buy-it-now on German ebay about 5
years ago. Mine was also complete and minty.I thought you got a good buy.
The Atlanta will kick the Berlin Pro's butt on blitz time control, but on
longer times the Berlin Pro will show itself as marginally stronger.(Berlin
Pro does not run on batteries).
have many hours of fun...
L
Hello folks!
I got Montreux (128kb) several days ago + bought 4 x 512kb RAM planks for upgrade but would like to ask is there any practical reason (for increasing strength) to make it if I play only 30-60 min / game? Or this computer values more with original RAM size?
P.S. Past year got Star Diamond for 120euro and Atlanta for 150euro both in close to "as new" conditions
I got Montreux (128kb) several days ago + bought 4 x 512kb RAM planks for upgrade but would like to ask is there any practical reason (for increasing strength) to make it if I play only 30-60 min / game? Or this computer values more with original RAM size?
P.S. Past year got Star Diamond for 120euro and Atlanta for 150euro both in close to "as new" conditions