I have had the Saitek Travel Expert for some time and had always assumed that it was exactly the same as the earlier model: Saitek Travel Champion 2100. Other than some mild cosmetic differences, the board design and button selections are exactly the same.
However, some time ago I learned that the 2100 doesn't have the H8 bug (which the Travel Expert does have) and decided to pick one up the other day on eBay. Reviewing the manuals, it turns out that both models have almost exactly the same options except that the Travel Expert does offer some enhancements: Self-Adaptive Levels on H1-H8 while the 2100 uses H1-H8 to provide additional Ply levels 9-16 and the Travel Expert offers an addition Bronstein Clock option (on A4) that the 2100 doesn't have.
So, the question is: Does anyone have a theory why the Travel Expert which was, presumably, supposed to be both a subsequent model and an improvement on the 2100, ended up having a rather major bug, the H8. Was the latter perhaps introduced when the code was tweaked and the few options mentioned above added?
Saitek Mephisto Travel Expert vs Saitek Travel Champion 2100
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Monsieur Plastique
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Hi Dave,
Does the Travel Champion 2100 have those "fun" levels ("e" file levels on the Cosmos / Expert Travel)? If so, does it have the fun level bug as does the Cosmos and Expert Travel?
Incidentally, I have borrowed my brother's Cosmos again and I have worked out the secondary way to "activate" the fun level bug. If you press the Level key and then press a piece into any square on the "e" file, the fun level bug is instantly activated, even if you never go on to select a fun level to actually play against. But if you scroll through a fun level with the Level key only, the bug does not activate.
We know it obviously activates when you play it on a fun level, but the secondary way of activating as per above is not documented in the owner's manual. I wonder how many people have accidentally being playing these machines on a fun level without even knowing it (and thinking what a weak machine it is, even though they are following the instructions in the manual to the letter?).
It is really easy to simply scroll past a fun level while pressing a random square looking for a level to set the machine to, so I could see the fun bug activating far more often than in the way described in the manual. Afterall, last time I borrowed this machine I accidentally activated the bug in the above described way and wondered why it was playing suicide chess at ten seconds per move!
Does the Travel Champion 2100 have those "fun" levels ("e" file levels on the Cosmos / Expert Travel)? If so, does it have the fun level bug as does the Cosmos and Expert Travel?
Incidentally, I have borrowed my brother's Cosmos again and I have worked out the secondary way to "activate" the fun level bug. If you press the Level key and then press a piece into any square on the "e" file, the fun level bug is instantly activated, even if you never go on to select a fun level to actually play against. But if you scroll through a fun level with the Level key only, the bug does not activate.
We know it obviously activates when you play it on a fun level, but the secondary way of activating as per above is not documented in the owner's manual. I wonder how many people have accidentally being playing these machines on a fun level without even knowing it (and thinking what a weak machine it is, even though they are following the instructions in the manual to the letter?).
It is really easy to simply scroll past a fun level while pressing a random square looking for a level to set the machine to, so I could see the fun bug activating far more often than in the way described in the manual. Afterall, last time I borrowed this machine I accidentally activated the bug in the above described way and wondered why it was playing suicide chess at ten seconds per move!
Chess is like painting the Mona Lisa whilst walking through a minefield.
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Cyberchess
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Sergio, a reviewer on Amazon.com, reported on this issue with the Saitek/Mephisto Travel Expert. See “The Fun Level Bug, the H8 Bug and Saitek”:
http://www.amazon.com/Saitek-Expert-Tra ... Descending
He states that while the fun level bug can be corrected by way of a reset, the H8 bug unfortunately cannot. He provides 3 test positions for determining if your computer has the dreaded H8 bug. One thing he doesn’t mention is if he tried removing the batteries and letting the machine sit a while before powering up again.
Other reviewers based in the U.S. have reported difficulties contacting Saitek customer support. It seems that they are reluctant to address chess computer issues now that they no longer sell them.
http://www.amazon.com/Saitek-Expert-Tra ... Descending
He states that while the fun level bug can be corrected by way of a reset, the H8 bug unfortunately cannot. He provides 3 test positions for determining if your computer has the dreaded H8 bug. One thing he doesn’t mention is if he tried removing the batteries and letting the machine sit a while before powering up again.
Other reviewers based in the U.S. have reported difficulties contacting Saitek customer support. It seems that they are reluctant to address chess computer issues now that they no longer sell them.
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Monsieur Plastique
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I have already tested battery removal on my brother's Cosmos as regards the fun bug, since I hate stabbing things 
The procedure I came up with to fix the fun level bug if it is accidently activated and the user does not have a stabbing device or does not want to inflict an internal wound on the Cosmos:
1. Turn off the unit (Go / Stop) button.
2. Remove at least one battery.
3. Press the Go/Stop key.
4. Reinsert all batteries.
That will do an instant reset and no waiting around for any residual memory to purge itself. In step 3 when you press the Stop / Go key, you will hear a very short beep as the machine gives it's last gasp on the remaining juice in the capacitors.
By the way, you can tell that at least one of the Amazon reviewers has unintentionally left their machine in fun mode without realising it. As I say, even if you follow the addendum in the user manual, it does not cover the second scenario relating to the fun level bug.
The procedure I came up with to fix the fun level bug if it is accidently activated and the user does not have a stabbing device or does not want to inflict an internal wound on the Cosmos:
1. Turn off the unit (Go / Stop) button.
2. Remove at least one battery.
3. Press the Go/Stop key.
4. Reinsert all batteries.
That will do an instant reset and no waiting around for any residual memory to purge itself. In step 3 when you press the Stop / Go key, you will hear a very short beep as the machine gives it's last gasp on the remaining juice in the capacitors.
By the way, you can tell that at least one of the Amazon reviewers has unintentionally left their machine in fun mode without realising it. As I say, even if you follow the addendum in the user manual, it does not cover the second scenario relating to the fun level bug.
Chess is like painting the Mona Lisa whilst walking through a minefield.
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Cyberchess
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Absolutely at least one and probably many, many more that don’t realize that they’re locked in the fun mode.Monsieur Plastique wrote:By the way, you can tell that at least one of the Amazon reviewers has unintentionally left their machine in fun mode without realising it. As I say, even if you follow the addendum in the user manual, it does not cover the second scenario relating to the fun level bug.
The computer could probably spot the 1100 rated Chess.com player slav4ikMD 8 MHZ of clock speed otherwise.Even though computer chess is/was a small niche market, these manufacturers should have recruited some bright teenage players from any chess club to play these machines prior to distribution. They would have surely identified “The French Bug,” which was the primary issue that convinced me to sell my Novag Star Diamond. I would have tolerated the plastic cover on the LCD display since I had to keep it covered due to the poorly designed rotating display feature, but losing one of my favorite defenses against 1.) e4 was a bit much to bear.
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Monsieur Plastique
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The problem was that after the manufacturers stopped playing in serious tournaments, the testing was not as rigorous. Infact I would not be surprised if the testing was nothing more than sitting down with it for a few hours and playing some games and giving test units out to a handful of people for testing as well.
There were very few serious machines released from around, say 1984 through to the early 90s that had what I would deem significant bugs. By that I mean the sorts of bugs we have all found in the later generation dedicated machines. Bugs that caused lockups, instantly losing moves, etc. This includes opening book issues - whether it be an incorrectly input line where the computer instantly loses the game, a book that has serious holes in it because it was not created by a proper chess player, etc, etc. Yes, there were exceptions and some surprising ones, but they were isolated cases.
If you take the Novag machines, everything looked fairly safe whilst Dave Kittinger was directly involved. I don't recall there being particularly serious issues with the Diamond, Diamond II, Sapphire, Sapphire, Amber, Emerald Classic Plus, etc. And as SirDave points out in this thread, the code that Saitek bought from Frans Morsch almost certainly would not have had the H8 bug in it, since one of the first machines they created using that code - Travel Champion 2100 - does not have the bug as per Dave's post above.
Then, after Kittinger retires from computer chess, Novag bring out the first Star Diamond (bugs), Citrine (bugs plus opening book full of serious holes), Obsidian (opening book issues). Then we had the Star Sapphire (hopeless display), Star Ruby (not RoHS compliant). And Saitek bring out the Cosmos, GK2100, etc with the H8 bug and with new levels - probably the two are related somehow - it's funny that the new levels were selected on the "h" file and that the bug is situated on the "h" file. Funny too because I discovered this week that you can set off the fun bug merely by pressing a piece into any "e" file square after pressing the Level key. So you could sort of say there is a "e" file bug as well.
And if you look at the mid-range Saiteks from the "final" dedicated era, they have pretty bad bugs as well. The Mephisto Maestro handheld has no mating algorithms - not even K+Q versus K. And in certain situations it will force a stalemate in an overwhelmingly won position. These things would have been total product killers had the machines had to play in serious tournament games (I often wonder what the rating of that machine might have been if it did not have those bugs because otherwise it's play is very competent for a 1600-ish ELO machine).
I think these engineers took existing code, tried to add features to increase mass appeal and then introduced new bugs doing that. As for openings books, they probably did nothing more esoteric than look at the code size they were left with, looked at the ROM size they were going to use, subtracted one from the other, took an existing book and randomly culled it so it would fit onto the ROM.
There is no doubt in my mind that had serious tournaments continued to be played into the late 90s, the machines we have today would be as bug free as they were in the late 80s. But no-one really cared by then as PC engines had taken over.
When I look back at the history of dedicated machines, probably the best era in terms of being able to buy a solid and strong machine at a reasonable price was the early to mid 90s. I consider the Amber. Emerald Classic Plus, Diamond II and Sapphire II as the best Novags and - given Dave's post above - the Travel Champion 2100 as the best Saitek portable.
Still at least with the Cosmos and Expert Travel, we have workarounds for everything apart from the H8 bug. Thing is, although it is dead easy to reproduce, I have not actually seen it happen in practice ever before. The games I have seen just haven't gone in such a way as to make it happen.
There were very few serious machines released from around, say 1984 through to the early 90s that had what I would deem significant bugs. By that I mean the sorts of bugs we have all found in the later generation dedicated machines. Bugs that caused lockups, instantly losing moves, etc. This includes opening book issues - whether it be an incorrectly input line where the computer instantly loses the game, a book that has serious holes in it because it was not created by a proper chess player, etc, etc. Yes, there were exceptions and some surprising ones, but they were isolated cases.
If you take the Novag machines, everything looked fairly safe whilst Dave Kittinger was directly involved. I don't recall there being particularly serious issues with the Diamond, Diamond II, Sapphire, Sapphire, Amber, Emerald Classic Plus, etc. And as SirDave points out in this thread, the code that Saitek bought from Frans Morsch almost certainly would not have had the H8 bug in it, since one of the first machines they created using that code - Travel Champion 2100 - does not have the bug as per Dave's post above.
Then, after Kittinger retires from computer chess, Novag bring out the first Star Diamond (bugs), Citrine (bugs plus opening book full of serious holes), Obsidian (opening book issues). Then we had the Star Sapphire (hopeless display), Star Ruby (not RoHS compliant). And Saitek bring out the Cosmos, GK2100, etc with the H8 bug and with new levels - probably the two are related somehow - it's funny that the new levels were selected on the "h" file and that the bug is situated on the "h" file. Funny too because I discovered this week that you can set off the fun bug merely by pressing a piece into any "e" file square after pressing the Level key. So you could sort of say there is a "e" file bug as well.
And if you look at the mid-range Saiteks from the "final" dedicated era, they have pretty bad bugs as well. The Mephisto Maestro handheld has no mating algorithms - not even K+Q versus K. And in certain situations it will force a stalemate in an overwhelmingly won position. These things would have been total product killers had the machines had to play in serious tournament games (I often wonder what the rating of that machine might have been if it did not have those bugs because otherwise it's play is very competent for a 1600-ish ELO machine).
I think these engineers took existing code, tried to add features to increase mass appeal and then introduced new bugs doing that. As for openings books, they probably did nothing more esoteric than look at the code size they were left with, looked at the ROM size they were going to use, subtracted one from the other, took an existing book and randomly culled it so it would fit onto the ROM.
There is no doubt in my mind that had serious tournaments continued to be played into the late 90s, the machines we have today would be as bug free as they were in the late 80s. But no-one really cared by then as PC engines had taken over.
When I look back at the history of dedicated machines, probably the best era in terms of being able to buy a solid and strong machine at a reasonable price was the early to mid 90s. I consider the Amber. Emerald Classic Plus, Diamond II and Sapphire II as the best Novags and - given Dave's post above - the Travel Champion 2100 as the best Saitek portable.
Still at least with the Cosmos and Expert Travel, we have workarounds for everything apart from the H8 bug. Thing is, although it is dead easy to reproduce, I have not actually seen it happen in practice ever before. The games I have seen just haven't gone in such a way as to make it happen.
Chess is like painting the Mona Lisa whilst walking through a minefield.
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Cyberchess
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Good point. I hadn’t encountered any kind of “bug” issue prior to the Star Diamond. At least one major supplier of chess computers in the early ‘80s ceased to carry the Fidelity Electronics line due to numerous quality control issues, although I never was aware of any type of programming or logic error with these early units. As you correctly point out, competition between these manufacturers was fierce, and their respective engineering teams must have thoroughly flowcharted the programming and functionality of these units prior to even burn-in testing. One major blooper, however, was that the first commercial chess computer of early ’77 didn’t fully understand the rules of castling, likely attributed to haste in having the first unit on the market. Word of this spread quickly in chess circles and must have cost Fidelity plenty in potential sales.Monsieur Plastique wrote:
There were very few serious machines released from around, say 1984 through to the early 90s that had what I would deem significant bugs. By that I mean the sorts of bugs we have all found in the later generation dedicated machines. Bugs that caused lockups, instantly losing moves, etc. This includes opening book issues - whether it be an incorrectly input line where the computer instantly loses the game, a book that has serious holes in it because it was not created by a proper chess player, etc, etc. Yes, there were exceptions and some surprising ones, but they were isolated cases.
Hi Jon,Monsieur Plastique wrote:Hi Dave,
Does the Travel Champion 2100 have those "fun" levels ("e" file levels on the Cosmos / Expert Travel)? If so, does it have the fun level bug as does the Cosmos and Expert Travel?
The TC2100 does have the 'fun' levels. All the levels are exactly the same as the Cougar & Miami & Travel Expert except for H1-H8. I have been assuming that the TC2100 does not have either the H8 bug or the Fun-Level bug based on this:
http://www.schach-computer.info/wiki/index.php/Bugs
Other than playing a game until you realize that Black's moves are in the suicide category, have you come across a relatively quick and reliable way to determine that you are in a fun level?
The above is very interesting and that is quite a discovery you made about how the fun-level bug can be activated without knowing it.Incidentally, I have borrowed my brother's Cosmos again and I have worked out the secondary way to "activate" the fun level bug. If you press the Level key and then press a piece into any square on the "e" file, the fun level bug is instantly activated, even if you never go on to select a fun level to actually play against. But if you scroll through a fun level with the Level key only, the bug does not activate.
We know it obviously activates when you play it on a fun level, but the secondary way of activating as per above is not documented in the owner's manual. I wonder how many people have accidentally being playing these machines on a fun level without even knowing it (and thinking what a weak machine it is, even though they are following the instructions in the manual to the letter?).
It is really easy to simply scroll past a fun level while pressing a random square looking for a level to set the machine to, so I could see the fun bug activating far more often than in the way described in the manual. Afterall, last time I borrowed this machine I accidentally activated the bug in the above described way and wondered why it was playing suicide chess at ten seconds per move!
Just for interest sake, there was some discussion about the H8 bug here last summer:
http://www.hiarcs.net/forums/viewtopic. ... 8180e76459
I think you're on to something here. Adding Self-Adaptive Levels on H1 to H8 (to replace what were extra Ply levels on the TC2100) could have easily resulted in the introduction of a bug. I programmed and sold an Accounts Receivable/Billing program in the 1980s and it was with great trepidation that I updated it, because I inevitably introduced more bugs and since the core of the package was compiled code, once those packages were sold, it was a major problem to correct the errors!Monsieur Plastique wrote: ...And Saitek bring out the Cosmos, GK2100, etc with the H8 bug and with new levels - probably the two are related somehow - it's funny that the new levels were selected on the "h" file and that the bug is situated on the "h" file.
But then, you're an accomplished programmer so you know what I mean.
Yes, it is separate. Many of the GK-2100 derivatives like the Cosmos will make an instant move if there is a legal move by a piece on the h8 square.Cubeman wrote:What exactly is the "h8" bug? What causes it and what effect does it have on game play? I gather the h8 bug is a separate bug to the easy level (true/false)?
This bug and others are explained pretty well with good examples on the SchachComputer.info wiki.
http://www.schach-computer.info/wiki/index.php/Bugs
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Monsieur Plastique
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No, playing a game is the only way to tell. But it does not take very long to work out you are on a fun level. As soon as it is out of book, it makes obviously weak or suicidal moves. If you want to test it quickly just open 1. h4 to get it out of book and then attack one of it's higher value pieces with a lower value piece. It will try to lose the exchange as quickly as possible, so will either leave the piece en prise or capture the lower value piece.SirDave wrote:Other than playing a game until you realize that Black's moves are in the suicide category, have you come across a relatively quick and reliable way to determine that you are in a fun level?
It really only takes less than a minute to know you have the fun bug activated - there is never any mistaking it, especially because the machine is quite strong by normal player standards even on the default 5 second average time level.
So it would be very easy to test your TC2100 for this and then if you do not want to stab the back of it, you can just follow my instructions above to reset it.
The reason I was curious about this is that I wanted to ascertain if all these two specific problems (fun bug, H8 bug) were caused by Saitek adding the new levels and therefore this would mean that the code Saitek bought from Frans Morsch was completely bug free.
Chess is like painting the Mona Lisa whilst walking through a minefield.
Thanks, I have just tested my Mephisto Saitek Expert Travel Chess Computer to see if it has these bugs, and am sad that it doesIanO wrote:Yes, it is separate. Many of the GK-2100 derivatives like the Cosmos will make an instant move if there is a legal move by a piece on the h8 square.Cubeman wrote:What exactly is the "h8" bug? What causes it and what effect does it have on game play? I gather the h8 bug is a separate bug to the easy level (true/false)?
This bug and others are explained pretty well with good examples on the SchachComputer.info wiki.
http://www.schach-computer.info/wiki/index.php/Bugs
I knew about the easy level bug and knew the work around, but that h8 bug is serious and can't be worked around. One bit of good news is that it does not have the en passant bug which was described.-
Monsieur Plastique
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Yes, it isn't good but on the other hand, it seems that in actual practice (i.e actual games as opposed to positions designed to illustrate the bug), it is an extremely rare occurrence. For example, my brother has played 587 games of the Saitek Cosmos versus other computers and there was not one instance of the H8 bug rearing it's ugly head. And in 597 Mephisto Miami games, the en passant bug did not appear either.
Having said that, the H8 bug will probably hit in the next game I play against Cosmos
Having said that, the H8 bug will probably hit in the next game I play against Cosmos
Chess is like painting the Mona Lisa whilst walking through a minefield.
I finally got around to testing my Saitek Travel 2100 for the Fun bug and can safely say that it is NOT present.
I started off by playing Fun Level 5 and having never played fun levels before, I assumed that I would be able to beat it easily since it would inevitably make stupid moves. But initially, that's not what happened- it actually started off playing reasonably well and because I was playing rather carelessly, I started to lose.
So, I restarted the game and decided to take it seriously. Again, it played rather well initially, but then it brought out its Queen unnecessarily and eventually made other obviously questionable moves. I mention all of this because I can see where a lot of players who have models with the Fun Level Bug might not realize that they are on one of the Fun Levels when they believed they were in one of the 'regular' levels.
Anyway, after finishing the game, I started in one of the regular time levels without resetting and the 2100 played as expected throughout.
I started off by playing Fun Level 5 and having never played fun levels before, I assumed that I would be able to beat it easily since it would inevitably make stupid moves. But initially, that's not what happened- it actually started off playing reasonably well and because I was playing rather carelessly, I started to lose.
So, I restarted the game and decided to take it seriously. Again, it played rather well initially, but then it brought out its Queen unnecessarily and eventually made other obviously questionable moves. I mention all of this because I can see where a lot of players who have models with the Fun Level Bug might not realize that they are on one of the Fun Levels when they believed they were in one of the 'regular' levels.
Anyway, after finishing the game, I started in one of the regular time levels without resetting and the 2100 played as expected throughout.