Apocalypsis Now!!!!
Moderators: Harvey Williamson, Steve B, Watchman
Forum rules
This textbox is used to restore diagrams posted with the fen tag before the upgrade.
This textbox is used to restore diagrams posted with the fen tag before the upgrade.
- Fernando
- Admiral of the Fleet
- Posts: 3059
- Joined: Tue Jul 31, 2007 4:35 pm
- Location: Santiago de Chile
Apocalypsis Now!!!!
Just discovered that also Chess Champion Challenger, my favorite unit, is if not dead, almost as Hal 2000 when dying, blinking madly the lights, talking nonsense and in all clear that he is agonizing...
from the mortuary regards
Fern
from the mortuary regards
Fern
Festina Lente
- Steve B
- Site Admin
- Posts: 10140
- Joined: Sun Jul 29, 2007 10:02 am
- Location: New York City USofA
- Contact:
Re: Apocalypsis Now!!!!
Fernando wrote:Just discovered that also Chess Champion Challenger, my favorite unit, is if not dead, almost as Hal 2000 when dying, blinking madly the lights, talking nonsense and in all clear that he is agonizing...
from the mortuary regards
Fern
It seems ALL of your chess computers are dying
it might this killer virus spreading around the world from Sub-Sahara Africa
Ebola Regards
Steve
- Fernando
- Admiral of the Fleet
- Posts: 3059
- Joined: Tue Jul 31, 2007 4:35 pm
- Location: Santiago de Chile
Yeah, but my loses are as nothing comparedd with the holocaust you will suffer. But you have so much of anything that probably you have not time to test all of your machine and you does not even know which is Ok and which is not.
So, maybe...
you are in the custody of a cementery regards
Fern
So, maybe...
you are in the custody of a cementery regards
Fern
Festina Lente
Fernando, regarding your Excellence, I'm wondering what went wrongFernando wrote:Yeah, but my loses are as nothing comparedd with the holocaust you will suffer. But you have so much of anything that probably you have not time to test all of your machine and you does not even know which is Ok and which is not.
So, maybe...
you are in the custody of a cementery regards
Fern
with it. If you take the back off it, you will see there is hardly anything
inside. No display, and only coordinate lights. I"m assuming it went bad
while running on a power adaptor, not on batteries. If it was batteries,
there could have been a simple bad battery, or bad connection between
battery and battery bay. If it was running on power adaptor, it could have
been oxidation on the flexible ribbon lead. This is an easy repair job once
you know how to do it. Show the machine to someone who you might
think is technically inclined. He might figure it out.
The Champion is harder. There is a lot of circuitry inside. Maybe it's best
to just watch ebay for another one. They are common enough.
Yes, all chess computers are future manual chess boards, but a lot of
them will still be going after us older guys are gone.
L
- Peter Grayson
- Member
- Posts: 207
- Joined: Sat Aug 04, 2007 3:23 pm
- Location: South Wales, UK
Unfortunately electronic micro-circuits are subject to what seems to be an inevitable long term deterioration caused by electromigration with the initial symptoms being minor failures that may clear after switching off for a while and restarting but after typically 20 to 30 years these units may be at an advanced state.Larry wrote:Fernando, regarding your Excellence, I'm wondering what went wrongFernando wrote:Yeah, but my loses are as nothing comparedd with the holocaust you will suffer. But you have so much of anything that probably you have not time to test all of your machine and you does not even know which is Ok and which is not.
So, maybe...
you are in the custody of a cementery regards
Fern
with it. If you take the back off it, you will see there is hardly anything
inside. No display, and only coordinate lights. I"m assuming it went bad
while running on a power adaptor, not on batteries. If it was batteries,
there could have been a simple bad battery, or bad connection between
battery and battery bay. If it was running on power adaptor, it could have
been oxidation on the flexible ribbon lead. This is an easy repair job once
you know how to do it. Show the machine to someone who you might
think is technically inclined. He might figure it out.
The Champion is harder. There is a lot of circuitry inside. Maybe it's best
to just watch ebay for another one. They are common enough.
Yes, all chess computers are future manual chess boards, but a lot of
them will still be going after us older guys are gone.
L
See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electromigration
The best solution would be to change all the micro-chips but getting around the issue of blowing a new (E)EPROM would be subject to the code and equipment being available as well as the micro-chips.
One reason I decided not to collect the early models and sold them off as I upgraded.
PeterG
-
- Member
- Posts: 429
- Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 12:31 pm
- Location: Milton Keynes
- Contact:
No doubt chip failures will became more commonplace but experience so far suggests we shouldn't panic yet. I have all but a few of the models manufactured in the first ten years (1977-1986) and don't find them any more likely to fail than those made twenty years later. On the contrary they fail less. Oxidation of ribbon cables and reed switches is a more common fault with some of the old ones.
So far the only chip failures I know of for certain have been with a CB16 cartridge and a MB Grandmaster both of 1982/3 vintage.
So far the only chip failures I know of for certain have been with a CB16 cartridge and a MB Grandmaster both of 1982/3 vintage.
- Fernando
- Admiral of the Fleet
- Posts: 3059
- Joined: Tue Jul 31, 2007 4:35 pm
- Location: Santiago de Chile
Larry wrote:Fernando, regarding your Excellence, I'm wondering what went wrongFernando wrote:Yeah, but my loses are as nothing comparedd with the holocaust you will suffer. But you have so much of anything that probably you have not time to test all of your machine and you does not even know which is Ok and which is not.
So, maybe...
you are in the custody of a cementery regards
Fern
with it. If you take the back off it, you will see there is hardly anything
inside. No display, and only coordinate lights. I"m assuming it went bad
while running on a power adaptor, not on batteries. If it was batteries,
there could have been a simple bad battery, or bad connection between
battery and battery bay. If it was running on power adaptor, it could have
been oxidation on the flexible ribbon lead. This is an easy repair job once
you know how to do it. Show the machine to someone who you might
think is technically inclined. He might figure it out.
The Champion is harder. There is a lot of circuitry inside. Maybe it's best
to just watch ebay for another one. They are common enough.
Yes, all chess computers are future manual chess boards, but a lot of
them will still be going after us older guys are gone.
Hi Larry:
certainly I will put the corpse in the hands of a technician that I know. If it is something of the kind you say, he will repair it; it we face a ROM problem, better to ask for the priest.
Fern
Festina Lente
Thanks for a good read, Peter.Peter Grayson wrote:
See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electromigration
One reason I decided not to collect the early models and sold them off as I upgraded.
PeterG
In the picture they show, it seems the circuit lines don't become thinner
until they disappear. They hold their width and tend to crumble.
The long term implications for civilization are scary.
L
- Monsieur Plastique
- Senior Member
- Posts: 1014
- Joined: Thu Jul 03, 2008 9:53 am
- Location: On top of a hill in eastern Australia
You get a lot of this syndrome with audio equipment. Typically many will opine that after 10 years you will notice sufficient electrical deterioration in components such that it becomes audible. Some of the higher echelon manufacturers will actually politely insist the equipment is returned after, say, a decade, so that "wearing" components (mostly capacitors) can be renewed. But as an audio hobbyist myself, I've tended to find the main enemy is heat as it pertains to longevity.Peter Grayson wrote:Unfortunately electronic micro-circuits are subject to what seems to be an inevitable long term deterioration caused by electromigration with the initial symptoms being minor failures that may clear after switching off for a while and restarting but after typically 20 to 30 years these units may be at an advanced state.
One reason I decided not to collect the early models and sold them off as I upgraded.
So far as chess computers are concerned, shock horror I have done exactly the same as you have. Mind you, I really needed to rationalise my collection anyway, since these days I only want machines that I want to actually play against. Then there is the other thing of dropping dead and your family being left with machines they do not know what to do with. So I just have one double sided cupboard now with three shelves and that has everything in it except my spare parts which are in another part of the house.
My oldest machine is the plain 16K Excellence and this is probably as early as I would ever risk going, since these were the earliest era machines that would not generate massive amounts of heat and were thus the earliest examples of energy efficient electronics. Compare even the Excellence to predecessors such as Mark V and the Scysis Sensor Chess and you can see the progress made in just a few years. That old Sensor Chess had a 2 MHz 6502 from memory and it generated so much heat that the sensory surface on the top of the machine would actually warp and become unstuck from the massive heat released from the heatsink.
But I tend to think the more modern, simpler designs are extremely durable electrically speaking. I bought a Mephisto Miami when it came out and it lasted me until a few years ago - that was about 17 years of almost daily use. What caused it to wear out was the sensory board - not the electronics. So I bought a few Advanced Travels and I reckon I am set for life. And there is just one capacitor in the machine which is very easily replaced.
Looking inside my Mephisto Maestro portables and I think they will virtually last for the rest of my life as well as by this era it was all chip-on-board and surface mount construction for the most part. But yes, though it would be nice to have some of those earlier machines - especially those earlier ones like Mark V / VI which still would give me a fun game - but there is that risk involved with early 80s electronics.
I think one thing people should go to the effort of doing - keeping the humidity low where they store their machines. I buy those things from the supermarket that collect water and have one on each shelf. I put them in towards the end of the year (approaching Summer here) and remove them by around now (Winter) when the humidity is naturally low. I believe this helps prolong the life of these machines, especially if you have old ones.
Chess is like painting the Mona Lisa whilst walking through a minefield.
Talking about early 80's machines going belly up.... this thread brings
back memories of my Scisys Mark V literally belching smoke at
power-up. I mentioned it on this forum and Steve replied that he had
the exact same experience also with a Mark V.
I'll remember to get some of those humidity absorbers for the closet.
L
back memories of my Scisys Mark V literally belching smoke at
power-up. I mentioned it on this forum and Steve replied that he had
the exact same experience also with a Mark V.
I'll remember to get some of those humidity absorbers for the closet.
L
- Steve B
- Site Admin
- Posts: 10140
- Joined: Sun Jul 29, 2007 10:02 am
- Location: New York City USofA
- Contact:
Quite correct LarryLarry wrote:Talking about early 80's machines going belly up.... this thread brings
back memories of my Scisys Mark V literally belching smoke at
power-up. I mentioned it on this forum and Steve replied that he had
the exact same experience also with a Mark V.
I'll remember to get some of those humidity absorbers for the closet.
L
The MV tanked on me on the eve of an online match Vs Jonathan's Star Opal(IIRC)
thankfully i had a spare at the ready
thats the one thing that keeps me from panicking about the oldies all going bad
so many of them are readily replaceable
i do find though...as ones collection grows older and older...that being able to call upon an experienced and expert technician willing and able to make repairs..is a MUST
thankfully i have this all important backup
in fact i have taken out a Life Insurance Policy on this man
Insurable Interest Regards
Steve
- Peter Grayson
- Member
- Posts: 207
- Joined: Sat Aug 04, 2007 3:23 pm
- Location: South Wales, UK
The Chafitz Sargon 2.5 started to give me problems with the switch that had to be operated to swap out the opening, main engine and endgame modules. I managed to figure out the need to keep power to the memory side of the PCB and so was able to overcome the issue with a rotary switch and a flying lead. Eventually the display started playing up when eventually it stayed blank.Monsieur Plastique wrote:
since these were the earliest era machines that would not generate massive amounts of heat and were thus the earliest examples of energy efficient electronics. Compare even the Excellence to predecessors such as Mark V and the Scysis Sensor Chess and you can see the progress made in just a few years. That old Sensor Chess had a 2 MHz 6502 from memory and it generated so much heat that the sensory surface on the top of the machine would actually warp and become unstuck from the massive heat released from the heatsink.
The Scisys Mk5 lasted long enough to get the Mk6 module fitted but then started having boot up problems when eventually it failed to do so.
I recall both these units ran very hot after being on for a while so that likely accelerated failure.
The Mephisto III seemed to run forever but I recall they used CMOS technology that significantly reduced power usage and hence heat that probably contributed to a longer life expectancy.
From the Fidelity Elegance on, the units were still in working order when it came to time to upgrade so they went, usually sold privately, to reduce the outlay for the new machine.
Two machines I have kept are the Risc 1Mb and The London 030 (upgraded Genius 030) both in exclusive boards. The Risc has not seen the light of day since I stopped playing in 1999 but the London 030 still gets used occasionally since I retired. The only issue with it is the loss of memory retention for games and user input openings that is most likely the failure of what looks to be a soldered in coin battery in the display unit. Without the correct tools my assessment is that it would risk damaging the display PCB to change the battery consequently I would not risk doing it myself now so it looks to be staying that way unless anyone is aware of someone who could undertake such work in the UK?
PeterG
- Steve B
- Site Admin
- Posts: 10140
- Joined: Sun Jul 29, 2007 10:02 am
- Location: New York City USofA
- Contact:
Sometimes though you do catch a break ....
this weekend i dusted off the EAG 2100 and loaded it up with the TDF module
felt like playing over a few of the classic games contained in the module
well..the D1 square was dead
breathing a sigh of resignation i walked away from the board forgetting to un-plug it
came back a few hours later and the square came back to life
that happens almost never
I Was Due One Regards
Steve
this weekend i dusted off the EAG 2100 and loaded it up with the TDF module
felt like playing over a few of the classic games contained in the module
well..the D1 square was dead
breathing a sigh of resignation i walked away from the board forgetting to un-plug it
came back a few hours later and the square came back to life
that happens almost never
I Was Due One Regards
Steve
- Fernando
- Admiral of the Fleet
- Posts: 3059
- Joined: Tue Jul 31, 2007 4:35 pm
- Location: Santiago de Chile
There is a God of the Dedicated Units that from time to time remember our existence and produces those miracles. Not less than a Godit is needed for me to have still working a Morphy Encore, the European version you gave to me time ago. Or I bought it?
Looks like I need a God for my memory regards
Fern
Looks like I need a God for my memory regards
Fern
Festina Lente
- Steve B
- Site Admin
- Posts: 10140
- Joined: Sun Jul 29, 2007 10:02 am
- Location: New York City USofA
- Contact:
i gave it to youFernando wrote:There is a God of the Dedicated Units that from time to time remember our existence and produces those miracles. Not less than a Godit is needed for me to have still working a Morphy Encore, the European version you gave to me time ago. Or I bought it?
Looks like I need a God for my memory regards
Fern
and i knew then..when i gave it to you...one day you would forget..even though at the time you were overwhelmed with gratitude
and you did forget
still..i gave it
Altruistic Regards
Steve