Ron Nelson Ever Copied, Used , Cloned the Spracklen?

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SirDave
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Post by SirDave »

Wouldn't it seem unlikely that Ron Nelson would say he programmed all the Excaliburs if those didn't include Excalibur's flagship boards (GM, Ivan, Igor)?
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Steve B
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Post by Steve B »

SirDave wrote:Wouldn't it seem unlikely that Ron Nelson would say he programmed all the Excaliburs if those didn't include Excalibur's flagship boards (GM, Ivan, Igor)?
Actually i recall asking him about the GM and Mirage Robot specifically
he stated he programmed them quite clearly to me
i left it at that...no reason to doubt his word
and as i mentioned earlier ..i was a bit "star struck" to be in contact with him in the first place so you dont exactly go around accusing one of your idols of lying

Short N Sweet Regards
Steve
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Steve B
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Post by Steve B »

Mike Watters wrote:
Steve B wrote: The very last program they produced was for Saitek in the Sparc OSA module....
for use in their Leonardo/Galileo/Renaissance boards
it was considered a disappointment for them

more here:
http://www.schachcomputer.at/sparc.htm

Maxed Out at Low 2200's Regards
Steve
Yes and there are even doubts about how much of Sparc was Dan & Kathe Spracklen's work in the end. I have read that others were brought in by Saitek to help after the disappointing results.

As for Excalibur we know or strongly suspect that there are Excaliburs with Dave Kittinger programs, with Gyula Horvath programs, and with Mark Taylor programs. There are known clones of CXG machines, versions of other well known models, versions of Chinese generic offerings. All of which doesn't leave a lot.
well since we are all offering up theories and possibilities lets try this one on for size

as i mentioned in an earlier post...
Nelson told me he (and Samole)were part owners of CXG by the time the Tmaster was released (1991)
he lost a great deal of money on his investment in CXG(he even mentioned an amount ...which i wont repeat here)

perhaps ..just perhaps..Nelson played a significant role in the programing of CXG computers from this time going forward and probably even before?

Speculating Regards
Steve
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Post by SirDave »

Steve B wrote:
SirDave wrote:Wouldn't it seem unlikely that Ron Nelson would say he programmed all the Excaliburs if those didn't include Excalibur's flagship boards (GM, Ivan, Igor)?
Actually i recall asking him about the GM and Mirage Robot specifically
he stated he programmed them quite clearly to me
i left it at that...no reason to doubt his word
and as i mentioned earlier ..i was a bit "star struck" to be in contact with him in the first place so you dont exactly go around accusing one of your idols of lying

Short N Sweet Regards
Steve
Re-reading my question, I see that it could be taken two different ways. I asked the question with the assumption that he was telling the truth, thus making other theories mentioned above less likely.

The GM is one of my favorite boards regards,
Dave
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Post by Mike Watters »

Steve B wrote: well since we are all offering up theories and possibilities lets try this one on for size

as i mentioned in an earlier post...
Nelson told me he (and Samole)were part owners of CXG by the time the Tmaster was released (1991)
he lost a great deal of money on his investment in CXG(he even mentioned an amount ...which i wont repeat here)

perhaps ..just perhaps..Nelson played a significant role in the programing of CXG computers from this time going forward and probably even before?

Speculating Regards
Steve
Well it is a theory Steve, but it requires a disregard of evidence to consider it.

(1) Hein Veldhuis's article on Krypton, original source Ketterling, states the source of the programs as Levy.
(2) Testing in recent years by Nick and others have shown the large extent to which apparently different companies products were actually the same or technically similar including CXG/Kryptons and Excaliburs.
(3) Taking the back off these chess computers reveals the same chips used and gives leads to the programmers who specialised in programming them
(4) Levy goes out of his way to correct the words I put in my article about Excalibur and Millennium changing "The source of programs for many of these cheaper models is unknown" to "Levy was the source of programs for all these cheaper models..."
(5) Ron Nelson appeared to bow out from chess programming Fidelity's and Z80s around 1982, because Fidelity needed stronger machines to compete. As Fern says programmers can only go so far before handing the baton on. Ron Nelson was apparently two generations back when Excaliburs first appear. From where does he suddenly find the ability to write quite strong programs for H8 chips?

I could go on but it gets more into the realms of putting two and two together rather than clear evidence. To some extent we had the same situation with Craig Barnes, Julio Kaplan and Saitek. Who actually did what? Well one can see Ron Nelson as leading the technical team taking credit for the final product, but as for doing the main work on the chess program you look at the evidence and come to your own conclusions.

From what Chad Cohen and his mother told me the business and social links between CXG and Levy, and CXG and the Samole family were strong. They were all working in a relatively small industry collaborating with each other.

Making a case regards
Mike
Last edited by Mike Watters on Tue Jul 08, 2014 10:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Steve B »

Mike Watters wrote:
To some extent we had the same situation with Craig Barnes, Julio Kaplan and Saitek. Who actually did what? Well one can see Ron Nelson as leading the technical team taking credit for the final product, but as for doing the hard graft on the chess program you look at the evidence and come to your own conclusions.

From what Chad Cohen and his mother told me the business and social links between CXG and Levy, and CXG and the Samole family were strong. They were all working in a relatively small industry collaborating with each other.

Making a case regards
Mike
so you are expecting me to take your word about a conversation Cohen and his mother had with you (without a shred of evidence )about the relationship between CXG and Samole?
:P
I do take it
it only bears out what Nelson told me about his investment in CXG and provides backup to my claim that he even said it
I see nothing in your above post that contradicts the possibility that Nelson played a role...perhaps a strong role in programming CXG programs
as to your question about Nelson suddenly appearing "out of the blue" to write an 1800 program for the H8...
Nelson never left the chess computer field
in fact he was part owner of CXG as well as Excalibur
dosent seem like an impossible task for a man like Nelson
also the question seems to imply he is lying when he told me he programmed them or it implies I am lying that he ever said it

Veracity Regards
Steve
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Post by spacious_mind »

Steve,

Part owner may be true, but the question arises from when?

1982? - Not Likely
1992 - Possibly
1993 - More likely

The problem with all this theory to favor Nelson is that all the programs discussed came out pre 1993.

Legend = 1992 is the only one in question here which is the one copied through Regency, Challenge, Ivan, Igor, GM.

It can't realistically be Nelson since you would then have to remove Horvath as the programmer and that is really not an option regarding Legend.

So his involvement in developing new programs at CXG is really Zilch. Everything thereafter really already existed before.

Regards
Nick
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Steve B
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Post by Steve B »

spacious_mind wrote:Steve,

Part owner may be true, but the question arises from when?

1982? - Not Likely
1992 - Possibly
1993 - More likely

The problem with all this theory to favor Nelson is that all the programs discussed came out pre 1993.

Legend = 1992 is the only one in question here which is the one copied through Regency, Challenge, Ivan, Igor, GM.

It can't realistically be Nelson since you would then have to remove Horvath as the programmer and that is really not an option regarding Legend.

So his involvement in developing new programs at CXG is really Zilch. Everything thereafter really already existed before.

Regards
Nick
Tmaster was released in 1991
by then Nelson was a part owner..thats what I was told
I imagine he was an owner at least a year ..if not more..before its release
that puts us to 1990 ish possibly even earlier
A quick look at Mikes Timeline shows about 8 CXG computers released during this time frame(not to mention the ones released under the Krypton badge)
my theory here is not put forth as a proof that he programmed the Gmaster but only that it is a possibility he had a hand ..perhaps a strong hand ..in the programming of CXG computers somewhat before and after the release of the Tmaster
a possibility heretofore never mentioned

Zilch + 8 Regards
Steve
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Post by Mike Watters »

Steve B wrote:
so you are expecting me to take your word about a conversation Cohen and his mother had with you (without a shred of evidence )about the relationship between CXG and Samole?
:P
I do take it
it only bears out what Nelson told me about his investment in CXG and provides backup to my claim that he even said it
I see nothing in your above post that contradicts the possibility that Nelson played a role...perhaps a strong role in programming CXG programs
as to your question about Nelson suddenly appearing "out of the blue" to write an 1800 program for the H8...
dosent seem like an impossible task for a man like Nelson
also the question either implies he is lying when he told me he programmed them or it implies I am lying that he ever said it

Veracity Regards
Steve
Steve

Chad's exact words were "I know that my dad had a very deep relationship with the Samole family out of Florida....". He mentions his fathers manufacturing for Sid Samole who he describes as my Dad's distribution partner.

It would not be the first time there has been debate about who actually programmed chess computers. We had David Broughton seeking some credit for the SciSys Mark V in his Q & A with Bernhard Drexler and then David Levy in another Q & A saying no the credit should go to Mark Taylor. Coming across someone exaggerating their role in a finished article wouldn't exactly be a shock.

In view of their close working relationships it seems a strong possibility that Levy, Nelson and Samole were all investors in CXG with White and Cohen in the later years.

Why would anyone believe Nelson had a strong role in programming CXGs when we know that the programs in CXGs are by Taylor, Lang, Danielsen and Morsch.

Only interested in the facts regards
Mike
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Post by Steve B »

spacious_mind wrote:
I am going to test them all against some Human Grandmaster games pretty soon. It will be pretty revealing.
I played a while back some 2hr/40 games to see if Igor would come out on top because of the 12 Mhz. The Results were:

Excalibur Legend II - Excalibur Igor --- 2-2
Excalibur Legend II - Excalibur Ivan --- 1-1
Excalibur Legend II - Krypton Regency --- 1-1

Not really conclusive of anything but the games gave me the distinct feeling that I was playing the same computers.

Regarding Kaare Danielsen.... I don't mean compare to Igor/Ivan/GM.

Excalibur produced a bunch of LCD Computers which could be toned down versions of Horvarth, maybe Danielsen. Don't know until they get test someday.

At the moment I don't have time because I want to get my site finished first. I can't afford to be distracted.

Regards
Hi Nick
I took a look at your FINAL list for Game 1 of the rating test you did


320 - CXG - ADVANCED STAR CHESS AGGRESSIVE - KAARE DANIELSEN - 30S STANDARD – LEVEL A7 - 6301Y 2 MHZ - 54.5 - 68.13% - 2044
321 - NOVAG - SCORPIO 68000 SELECTION 4 - DAVID KITTINGER - 30S STANDARD – LEVEL A3 - 68000 16 MHZ - 54.4 - 68.00% - 2040
322 - FIDELITY - ELITE A/S V11 - DAN & KATHE SPRACKLEN - 30S STANDARD – LEVEL A4 - 68060 – 72 MHZ - 54.2 - 67.75% - 2033
323 - NOVAG - SUPER FORTE VERSION C SELECTION 5 - DAVID KITTINGER - 30S STANDARD – LEVEL A3 - 6502 5 MHZ - 54.1 - 67.63% - 2029
324 - EXCALBUR - GRANDMASTER PLATINUM - RON NELSON? - 30S STANDARD – LEVEL 53 - H8/3214 12 MHZ - 54.1 - 67.63% - 2029
325 - FIDELITY - EXCEL MACH IIB MODEL 6097 - DAN & KATHE SPRACKLEN - 30S STANDARD – LEVEL A4 - 68000 12 MHZ - 54.0 - 67.50% - 2025
326 - TIGER - GRENADIER - CHRILLY DONNIGER - 30S STANDARD – LEVEL 30S - SUPERH 7034 – 20 MHZ - 54.0 - 67.50% - 2025
327 - MEPHISTO - ALMERIA 68000 - RICHARD LANG - 30S STANDARD - 68000 – 12 MHZ - 54.0 - 67.50% - 2025
328 - NOVAG - SUPER EXPERT C SELECTIVE 3 - DAVID KITTINGER - 30S STANDARD – LEVEL 3 - 65C02 – 6 MHZ - 54.0 - 67.50% - 2025
329 - NOVAG - DIABLO 68000 - DAVID KITTINGER - 30S STANDARD – LEVEL 3 - 68000 – 16 MHZ - 54.0 - 67.50% - 2025
330 - PHOENIX CHESS - REVELATION ALMERIA - RICHARD LANG - 30S STANDARD – LEVEL 60/30 - 68020 – 18 MHZ - 54.0 - 67.50% - 2025
331 - CXG - SPHINX TITAN POSITIONAL - KAARE DANIELSEN - 30S STANDARD – LEVEL A7/H8 - 6301Y 2 MHZ - 54.0 - 67.50% - 2025



don't see any exact matches here with anything close to a CXG computer
I do see an exact match with a Novag though

Hmmm Regards
Steve
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Post by Steve B »

Mike Watters wrote:
Chad's exact words were "I know that my dad had a very deep relationship with the Samole family out of Florida....". He mentions his fathers manufacturing for Sid Samole who he describes as my Dad's distribution partner.

It would not be the first time there has been debate about who actually programmed chess computers. We had David Broughton seeking some credit for the SciSys Mark V in his Q & A with Bernhard Drexler and then David Levy in another Q & A saying no the credit should go to Mark Taylor. Coming across someone exaggerating their role in a finished article wouldn't exactly be a shock.

In view of their close working relationships it seems a strong possibility that Levy, Nelson and Samole were all investors in CXG with White and Cohen in the later years.

Why would anyone believe Nelson had a strong role in programming CXGs when we know that the programs in CXGs are by Taylor, Lang, Danielsen and Morsch.

Only interested in the facts regards
Mike
well it seems like a possibility to me..given he was involved with the company as a direct owner...
if ..as has been suggested here .. that Nelson had very little to do with programing any Excalibur computers (a theory I consider most unlikely) then I am tossing out the suggestion that perhaps he had a role ..perhaps a significant role .in CXG computers during his involvement with the company

Seems at least plausible to me Regards
Steve
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Post by spacious_mind »

Hi Steve,

You have already stated that you recall in your conversations with Ron Nelson that he had more pleasure in discussing his achievements ie.. movement detection, maybe robotics, voice even and also probably a huge impact on design.

You also state that Ron Nelson plays down any mentioning of any achievements in the chess program, seeming not interested. That sound like someone not looking you in the face when they talk to you :)

Ron Nelsons achievements huge as they are lie not in chess programs themselves. Anyone who invested a lot of time in a particular area would talk about it and not change subjects. The changing of subjects is leading you into areas that he feels good about. Safety Zone stuff..

Best regards
Nick
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Steve B
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Post by Steve B »

spacious_mind wrote:Hi Steve,

You have already stated that you recall in your conversations with Ron Nelson that he had more pleasure in discussing his achievements ie.. movement detection, maybe robotics, voice even and also probably a huge impact on design.

You also state that Ron Nelson plays down any mentioning of any achievements in the chess program, seeming not interested. That sound like someone not looking you in the face when they talk to you :)

Ron Nelsons achievements huge as they are lie not in chess programs themselves. Anyone who invested a lot of time in a particular area would talk about it and not change subjects. The changing of subjects is leading you into areas that he feels good about. Safety Zone stuff..

Best regards
Nick
I don't think he was exactly uninterested Nick..I think it might have been modesty on his part..or perhaps he was "dumbing down" the conversation knowing I was not a programmer myself..still..it is true he was far more animated when he spoke about voice chips and motion detectors then any chess programs he wrote
I did find that a bit odd...
I recall another conversation where he said he was toying with the idea of somehow being able to use "real eyes" in one of the Chess Robots but I took that as an attempt at humor

Squinting Regards
Steve
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Post by Mike Watters »

Steve B wrote:
well it seems like a possibility to me..given he was involved with the company as a direct owner...
if ..as has been suggested here .. that Nelson had very little to do with programing any Excalibur computers (a theory I consider most unlikely) then I am tossing out the suggestion that perhaps he had a role ..perhaps a significant role .in CXG computers during his involvement with the company

Seems at least plausible to me Regards
Steve
Steve

I agree with what Nick is saying about Ron Nelson's role.
I have also looked for positive evidence that Ron Nelson was the chess programmer of Excaliburs in the published sources of the time - Selective Search, CSS and Chess Computer Reports.

Eric virtually ignores Excalibur in Selective Search. CSS have only two references, a 1980 photo and a passing mention in Karsten's article saying Ron Nelson is still involved in Excalibur.

Chess Computer Reports review Excaliburs several times but Ron Nelson does not get a mention. However in Vol 4, No.2 we get this -
"Excalibur is a spiritual descendent of Fidelity, as its president, Shane Samole is the son of Fidelity's founder and many of the employees at Excalibur have been former Fidelity employees. Moreover, Excalibur is based in Miami, as was Fidelity. However Excalibur unlike Fidelity has so far only marketed inexpensive chess computers. The only models of interest to most CCR readers are the Expert level machines utilizing the H8 processor and programmed by David Levy and associates. These include the hand-held sensory Accolade and peg-sensory Comet, the table-top sensory Legend II and Krypton Challenge....etc.

Time to move on? regards
Mike
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Post by Steve B »

Mike Watters wrote:
Chess Computer Reports review Excaliburs several times but Ron Nelson does not get a mention. However in Vol 4, No.2 we get this -
"Excalibur is a spiritual descendent of Fidelity, as its president, Shane Samole is the son of Fidelity's founder and many of the employees at Excalibur have been former Fidelity employees. Moreover, Excalibur is based in Miami, as was Fidelity. However Excalibur unlike Fidelity has so far only marketed inexpensive chess computers. The only models of interest to most CCR readers are the Expert level machines utilizing the H8 processor and programmed by David Levy and associates. These include the hand-held sensory Accolade and peg-sensory Comet, the table-top sensory Legend II and Krypton Challenge....etc.

Time to move on? regards
Mike
again nothing new here that changes my opinion of Nelsons involvment

I have stated several times now that the re-badges (Comet.Karpov 2294,Avenger..etc..etc..) were clearly not Nelson
I also checked CCR but the magazine folded before the release of the GM,Mirage,King Arthur ...etc..etc.
I also checked Selective Search..as you say..nothing
I do find it odd though that Hallsworth dosent even offer the GM until 2005 and does not show it on his rating lists until then..even here...he will list the GM in his rating list ..then the next issue...not show it..then list it again


my conversations with Nelson were circa 2001-2006 so when he mentioned he programed all of Excalibur computers he was not discussing these computers
we focused more on models that I owned at the time...
LCD Chess,GM,Mirage Etc.etc.

Still Standing Regards
Steve
Last edited by Steve B on Tue Jul 08, 2014 3:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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