Ron Nelson Ever Copied, Used , Cloned the Spracklen?

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Mike Watters
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Post by Mike Watters »

ChessChallenger wrote: I am the one who programmed every line of code for every chess game produced by Excalibur Electronics. There was no team. Just me.
I designed every schematic, every circuit board, every housing.
I wrote and desktop published every Instruction Manual.
Welcome. The more you feel able to tell us about Fidelity and Excalibur chess computers the happier we will be.

However these are extraordinary claims you make. Extraordinary not least because we know that 20+ Excalibur models are clones of chess computers released by Novag, CXG and Krypton/Systema with chess programs written by David Kittinger, Mark Taylor, Gyula Horvath etc. Apparently the same housings, the same hardware and the same (or very similar) programs.

So, the 1993 Excalibur Chess Wizard is a 1992 CXG Sphinx Seville, same housing, 4 bit singlechip and Mark Taylor program.

Image

Image



The 1997 Excalibur Karpov 2294 is apparently a Novag Emerald Classic Plus, itself a minor downgrade from the 1996 Novag Emerald Classic with a David Kittinger program.

Image

Image


And so it goes on......

Excuse some of us if we remain sceptical when there are so many contradictions and unanswered questions, hence the debate on numerous threads here.

Mike
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Steve B
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Post by Steve B »

Mike Watters wrote:

Excuse some of us if we remain sceptical when there are so many contradictions and unanswered questions, hence the debate on numerous threads here.

Mike
Ron can answer for himself but I can tell you that listing obvious clones does not contradict his statements
it was obvious to me that Ron means computers produced by Excalibur and on one else such as the GM and Mirage,Deluxe Talking Chess..etc..etc..
which is what the various bebates centered around

I can also confirm that he is the real Ron Nelson and he has already said in plain clear English that he is the programmer for the GM and Mirage which you know as well as I do ..was always the main focus of the debates
its time you and others showed some humility here and
at least admit you were wrong regarding the GM and Mirage
that would be a good start


you are hearing it from the man himself
this is not honest skepticism..its denial


Take The High Road Regards
Steve
Last edited by Steve B on Wed Dec 23, 2015 2:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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spacious_mind
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Post by spacious_mind »

Steve B wrote:
Mike Watters wrote:

Excuse some of us if we remain sceptical when there are so many contradictions and unanswered questions, hence the debate on numerous threads here.

Mike
Ron can answer for himself but I can tell you that listing obvious clones does not contradict his statements
it was obvious to me that Ron means computers produced by Excalibur and on one else such as the GM and Mirage
which what the various bebates centered around


Take The High Road Regards
Steve
Hi Steve,

Yes Ron included Mirage as an afterthought with an indirect response when I suggested as such in my email.
His original email clearly states that he is the programmer of Grandmaster. Mirage was manufactured by Krypton therefore there are lot of gaps that Ron might hopefully fill in with regards to his connection with Krypton and how all that fit together since we have two claimants for Mirage being Eric White and Krypton and Excalibur.

Mike is also correct with the user manual statement. The manuals for Igor & Mirage and Ivan (have not checked Grandmaster) all clearly originate from an author that wrote them starting with Legend & Concerto in 1992 for CXG which is a Horvath, therefore there as Mike correctly pointed out there are discrepancies all over the place and not just with the obvious Novag/Excalibur examples.

No one is questioning the influence from Ron Nelson and his major role in the history of dedicated chess computers.

We are just hoping to fill in the gaps correctly for proper preservation of history rather than vagueness and assumption. It would be too much of a shame to go down that path of inaccuracies.

You never know maybe 200 years from now there is a nostalgic renaissance for chess and just like a Mona Lisa what we write today is followed as gospel tomorrow. I don't know about you but I refuse to lead people down a wrong garden path which at face value Ron statements are with regards to the three that Mike highlighted in his post.

We are hoping to have these gaps filled in from someone who truly knows what his role was and who else played a part, Ron's statement as it reads disclaims everybody but himself and I am sure that was not his intent.

It would be nice to know when Ron joined Excalibur and what his first projects were. It would also be nice to know his involvement with Eric White and David Levy at Krypton. Mirage was conceived around 1993/1994 by Krypton. That would be around the time of Ron working at Mephisto/Saitek or just leaving.

Excalbur no longer exists therefore is it so wrong to ask for some knowledge and facts?

At least 3 different chess authored programs came out at around the very same time, on at least 3 different hardware, how would this be possible to have one person author all three original chess programs unless the origins were from 3 different original chess authors. No one is even disputing enhancements made to root programs as per the Belle thing.

We are all trying to put the right people behind the computers. The vision, concept and implementation we all know belongs 100% to Ron Nelson from a certain point onwards at Excalibur no one is disputing this.

We are trying to find out chess program authorship whether it be:

Nelson, Horvath & Thompson on some or
Nelson & someone else on others or
Ron Nelson on specifics

If Ron Nelson used Thompson Attack tables then that alone means a shared authorship to be correct in how we name chess authors. We know with Mirage many things indicate towards Horvath, what would be wrong to admit and name it all correctly for the chess program.

All this requires some explanation.

Best regards
Nick
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Steve B
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Post by Steve B »

spacious_mind wrote:
Yes Ron included Mirage as an afterthought with an indirect response when I suggested as such in my email.
His original email clearly states that he is the programmer of Grandmaster.

Excalbur no longer exists therefore is it so wrong to ask for some knowledge and facts?
yeah and the more questions he answers the more you will ask and basically never be satisified
ive seen you do that before..
anyway..

lets start with this as a first step
do you concede he is the Programmer of the GM?
Yes Or No?

Fairly straight forward question Regards
Steve
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spacious_mind
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Post by spacious_mind »

Steve B wrote:
spacious_mind wrote:
Yes Ron included Mirage as an afterthought with an indirect response when I suggested as such in my email.
His original email clearly states that he is the programmer of Grandmaster.
well lets start with this
do you concede he is the Programmer of the GM?
Yes Or No?

Fairly straight forward question Regards
Steve
Only Ron can answer that. With regards to the concept, vision & design & hardware engineering absolutely yes that has never been in question on any Excalibur's other than the obvious clones and we honor him for those achievements.

The debate is around written from scratch chess programs and is centered around who did what on the chess program. You cannot argue that many things around this originate from Horvath and now we have Thompson added to it. But Ron can explain all this properly himself especially since the indication is that something came from Thompson if not Spracklen. What is wrong with providing some open historical facts around this and let everyone be at peace including himself.

ps.. you know that we are going to question any discrepancies as this is our hobby and passion and it is something that passionate collectors do, irrespective of what the hobby is :)

Best regards
Nick
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Steve B
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Post by Steve B »

Steve B wrote:
well lets start with this
do you concede he is the Programmer of the GM?
Yes Or No?

Fairly straight forward question Regards
Steve
spacious_mind wrote:
Only Ron can answer that.
he did answer that
point blank ..in clear language
ill ask you again..do you now believe he programmed the GM...


Yes Or No Regards
Steve
Last edited by Steve B on Wed Dec 23, 2015 1:10 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Mike Watters
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Post by Mike Watters »

Steve B wrote: Ron can answer for himself
Steve
If only he would.
The easiest way to destroy your credibility is to make claims that can be disproved. Why do it?
Start from the other end. Name the actual machines those claims apply to. At the moment you say there are two.

Excalibur produced at least 60 models. I use the word produce in its common dictionary meaning, eg Google :-
1. make or manufacture from components or raw materials.
2. cause (a particular result or situation) to happen or exist.

I know you would like to limit the discussion but in terms of our hobby finding out who individually or jointly programmed all 60+ Excaliburs is more significant and enlightening in my opinion.

Mike
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Steve B
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Post by Steve B »

Mike Watters wrote:
I know you would like to limit the discussion but in terms of our hobby finding out who individually or jointly programmed all 60+ Excaliburs is more significant and enlightening in my opinion.

Mike
ill ask you again as well...
do you now believe he programmed the GM??
Yes Or No?

Pinning You Down Regards
Steve
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spacious_mind
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Post by spacious_mind »

Steve B wrote:
Mike Watters wrote:
I know you would like to limit the discussion but in terms of our hobby finding out who individually or jointly programmed all 60+ Excaliburs is more significant and enlightening in my opinion.

Mike
ill ask you again as well...
do you now believe he programmed the GM??
Yes Or No?

Pinning You Down Regards
Steve
I will give you this link:

http://www.spacious-mind.com/html/commo ... _2000.html

When Mark Manyen first contacted me he believed he and his team programmed Chessmaster 2000 and Chessmaster 2100. When digging into the specifics we then of course went into his reminiscing about David Kittinger and Spracklen.

Mark Manyen programmed Chessmaster 2000. Did he however author the chess program?

The word programmed is a very loose word.

Best regards
Last edited by spacious_mind on Wed Dec 23, 2015 1:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Nick
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Steve B
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Post by Steve B »

spacious_mind wrote:
Steve B wrote:
Mike Watters wrote:
I know you would like to limit the discussion but in terms of our hobby finding out who individually or jointly programmed all 60+ Excaliburs is more significant and enlightening in my opinion.

Mike
ill ask you again as well...
do you now believe he programmed the GM??
Yes Or No?

Pinning You Down Regards
Steve
The word programmed is a very loose word.
ill Take that as a no
at least everyone here can clearly see how unreasonable your position is now
Amazing Regards
Steve
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spacious_mind
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Post by spacious_mind »

Steve B wrote:
spacious_mind wrote:
Steve B wrote:
Mike Watters wrote:
I know you would like to limit the discussion but in terms of our hobby finding out who individually or jointly programmed all 60+ Excaliburs is more significant and enlightening in my opinion.

Mike
ill ask you again as well...
do you now believe he programmed the GM??
Yes Or No?

Pinning You Down Regards
Steve
The word programmed is a very loose word.
ill Take that as a no
at least everyone here can clearly see how unreasonable your position is now
Amazing Regards
Steve
Hi Steve,

Are you the spokesman now for Ron Nelson? Is this why you PM'd him officially in front everyone? To be forewarned of us non-believers?

Questioning discrepancies is what reasonable human minds do.

Not blinded by faith regards
Nick
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Steve B
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Post by Steve B »

spacious_mind wrote:

Hi Steve,

Are you the spokesman now for Ron Nelson? Is this why you PM'd him officially in front everyone? To be forewarned of us non-believers?

Questioning discrepancies is what reasonable human minds do.

Not blinded by faith regards
you mean you wont be blinded by the truth I guess
there is nothing reasonable about your position at this point

I notified him in public about my PM because he was new to the board and I didn't think he would even notice he had a PM waiting for him
that's why I explained where he should look for it
I have done this before with other new members
as to the content of my PM to him
I welcomed him to the board and I asked him if he remembered me and our conversations back then...to my chagrin..he did not remember me


and ..no .. I am not his spokeperson..I am the person from day 1 that said he programmed the GM as a result of conversations I had with him in the mid 2000's
you and Mike questioned my account
now he has come here and directly answered the question
in another thread Brian Whitby made contact with a VP of Excalibur who worked there the same time as Ron did and he confirmed that Ron was the programmer
you questioned the VP's account then and now you question Nelson's own
account from his own mouth
heres the truth Nick

You Cant Handle The Truth Regards
Steve
Last edited by Steve B on Wed Dec 23, 2015 3:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
ChessChallenger
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Ron Nelson

Post by ChessChallenger »

Thanks for your interest in me and my products.
I would not have normally engaged discussions on a forum, but I could not let anyone think I had used the Fidelity Spracklen program,
or that I had not personally programmed and designed every chess computer Excalibur manufactured in China.

I do want to get back into computer chess, I am comfortably retired enjoying life with my wife, traveling (European River cruises are fantastic),
my grand children and dancing. I am not a fan of Facebook, but I recently joined so I can record my life events,
and go backwards on the timeline to memorialize my life. I do not accept friends I do not personally know.

I do not pretend to think I am in the same league as the Spracklens, Kittinger, Lang, Morsch or Shroeder.
They are all brilliant people that, to my knowledge, worked 24/7 on their high end chess programs.
I on the other hand designed and programmed many consumer products and games. I enjoyed working at
the low end and the challenges small memory and low cost processors presented. I was proud of my
single chip 8049 2K bytes 128 byte ram chess engine. My 4-bit processor chess engine was also another
great accomplishment for me since it used sophisticated PRV and Killer Move search techniques.
Mike Watters
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Post by Mike Watters »

Steve B wrote:
Mike Watters wrote:
I know you would like to limit the discussion but in terms of our hobby finding out who individually or jointly programmed all 60+ Excaliburs is more significant and enlightening in my opinion.

Mike
ill ask you again as well...
do you now believe he programmed the GM??
Yes Or No?

Pinning You Down Regards
Steve
Well Steve, you wouldn't be trying to deflect the debate onto this narrow subject, would you? As Nick has explained the opportunity of understand the wider issues must be more important. I don't remember anyone questioning your account of what you were told. The questioning was about the accuracy and interpretation of those claims. Just as it is now.

My honest answer to your question is I don't know who programmed the GM. I recall that David Broughton gave the impression that he was the author of Mark V, with Mark Taylor only doing a 6502 conversion, in his Schachcomputer.info interview. Only for David Levy in his interview to give the credit for Mark V to Mark Taylor. Then there was Craig Barnes who left the impression here that he was solely or mainly responsible for dozens of SciSys/Saitek, Mephistos, RadioShacks etc only to go quiet when I quizzed him in emails on the contribution of Julio Kaplan and others in the Heuristics Software team. I have seen different claims for other chess computers also. Perhaps it is human nature for some to exaggerate their role in achieving things. Which is why I look for other evidence to back claims up. My only interest is to be accurate and give credit where it is due.

The previous threads turned into a pantomime of 'Oh yes he did' 'Oh no he didn't'. Which established nothing. It would be a shame to miss an opportunity to establish the facts. So if you could forget the accusations, and demands for answers? We all know it is only bluster.

Mike
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Steve B
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Post by Steve B »

Mike Watters wrote:

Well Steve, you wouldn't be trying to deflect the debate onto this narrow subject, would you?
My honest answer to your question is I don't know who programmed the GM.
no I am only trying to get you to admit that Ron Programmed the GM
which you cannot bring yourself to do no matter what evidence is shown to you
the man himself tells you he programmed it
go ahead and ask what ever you want
seems pointless to me though given you don't believe what he tells you anyway

Eyes Wide Shut Regards
Steve
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