Chess Programming Authorship

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Fernando
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Chess Programming Authorship

Post by Fernando »

A long an interesting thread has born on the ground of a simple question about Spracklen probable survival in Excalibur computer codes.
The core of the discussion is if Nelson programmed them entirely or they are not, being Nelson in those years just the leader supervisor or something.
Reading all the posts of the thread a simple conviction has taken me. After 1990 or so the industry of dedicated unit was not AT ALL interested in competing for Elo, rating and winning tourns as much the era of software was in full coming to the scene and that endeavor was irrelevant.
Dedicated units became toys and when you talk of toys what matter is how much you are capable to please the kind of people and/or reasons a toy is purchased, that is, slight, easy entertainment. In that respect, the chess programming part is scarcely as important as it was when each computer was evaluated in terms of how good he could play, how near a real human player he was.
So many of those comps were sold with old engines barely improved or changed to adopt them to new hardware.
And in that context of lack of importance of the chess part of the programming, with maybe puices embeded here and there to adopt the code and improve the GUI, probably THERE IS NOT SENSE in looking for author of those 90's programs, exception made of some cases of first class.
Anything plastic was made pele mele and that is...

Fern
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Post by Mike Watters »

I think you are right Fern but we are inquisitive, we want to know what happened and follow the story through. Sadly there are very few new chess computers to distract us. Some are still very interested in testing, including the weakest machines. During the 80s and early 90s so much happened, so fast, that few noticed if Fidelity slipped in a upgraded program or the specification was nothing like the publicity.

The more you look into the damn things the more you find, including occasionally program authors you never heard of before.

Mike
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spacious_mind
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Post by spacious_mind »

You know I have been tempted to post a question a here or at Schachcomputer.Info for a long time titled "Heroes or Villains or Both". This question has always been particularly appropriate to ask about exactly a couple of people discussed in the previous post. So before responding, think through the history of computer chess and how their actions influenced chess enthusiasts over the world then and what we have today. Think of people who want to play chess and bought their first computers in the 80, first computer in the 90, first computer in the 2000's. Which generation would have more likely gone out to buy a second computer. Which generation would more likely have trashed what they have just bought. Think of the manufacturers, what happened to them, the individuals involved in their decline, the individuals involved in the hobby decline before you answer. But on the other side of the spectrum think of what they created. Think of the negatives and positives and post your response!

So the first three names I am going to post are below, since they are names that have been discussed in the authorship topic as well. I have thrown Peter Jennings in there just assist in your weighting decision You just have to post response:

1) Peter Jennings
2) Ron Nelson
3) David Levy
4) Sid Shamole


So on each one:

1) Hero?
2) Villain?
3) Both?

Best regards :)

Nick
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Steve B
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Post by Steve B »

Interesting question Nick
I can only speak from my perspective which begins on the very first day a dedicated chess computer was released for sale
(ill skip over Jennings as he really didn't produce anything of import for dedicated computers)

Basically I consider all 3 to be pioneers in our small niche of a hobby
Samole had the wisdom and financial wherewithal to give us the first dedicated computers and at a price not beyond most chess enthusiasts
Nelson the very first to program them
Levy gave us the Mark V ..IMHO a remarkable computer ..which to this day is a joy to play and has more features then 100's of computers released decades later
in addition Levy was a very prolific author of books about computer chess (including dedicated chess computers)..his books were targeted at the everyday computer chess enthusiast and not written as Technical treatises to be discussed in the halls of Academia
I have spent many a rainy weekend afternoon reading his books
I even re-read them to this day

History shows Samole to be very aggressive in his techniques in obtaining ratings for his computers
some would say he went past the standards of ethical behavior
perhaps...

for me..when I think of all three I have nothing but fond memories
so I vote... 1...Hero.. for all of them

Founding Fathers Regards
Steve
P.S. you spelled Samoles name wrong
hopefully you were not thinking "Shame" when you wrote it
:P
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Post by spacious_mind »

Steve B wrote:
Founding Fathers Regards
Steve
P.S. you spelled Samoles name wrong
hopefully you were not thinking "Shame" when you wrote it
:P
LOL, yes I am not at my best at 5.30 in the morning..

Thanks let's see what other come up. I am interested in seeing the views from birth of chess computers to death of chess computers. Who was influential.

Regards
Nick
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Fernando
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Post by Fernando »

spacious_mind wrote:
Steve B wrote:
Founding Fathers Regards
Steve
P.S. you spelled Samoles name wrong
hopefully you were not thinking "Shame" when you wrote it
:P
LOL, yes I am not at my best at 5.30 in the morning..

Thanks let's see what other come up. I am interested in seeing the views from birth of chess computers to death of chess computers. Who was influential.

Regards
I thank them all for his work.
I do not care if a doses of commercial deceiving was always present; for me the simple thing is that these they gave me then and give me now a great amount of the few pleasures the life can give.
So, if not heroes, at least people I appreciate.

Fern
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spacious_mind
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Post by spacious_mind »

I would say:

1) Peter Jennings - Hero, technically speaking the first to bring chess to a Microcomputer on KIM-1. He hasn't done anything since his Microchess program but has to be classified a class one Hero.

2) Ron Nelson - Hero for early Fidelity and for leading teams to beautiful computer designs and features from and CC1 to even through Excalibur. Negative for me, Excalibur instrumental in forcing others out of business through selling mass market cheap C*R*A*P. with Nelson's ample assistance, therefore leaning towards both Hero and Villain.

3) Samole - Racketeer - hero early on because of Fidelity, but when the going got tough somehow managed to hoodwink the Germans to buy his dead company and its millions of losses which ultimately caused Mephisto to go down as well. - Overall Rating Villain. Samole Junior = Also Villain because today dedicated chess computers might have been better off without the existence of Excalibur.

4) David Levy - Probably beats out Samole as Master Villain, instrumental in convincing other Manufacturers that selling cheap C*R*A*P was the way to go. I guess he always needed the limelight which he sought in the 60's without ever really writing a program himself if I read correctly that Mark Taylor was the chess programmer behind David Levy.

So to summarize: Birth of Dedicated/Death of Dedicated

Peter Jennings = Pioneer/No influence in the Death
Ron Nelson = Pioneer/Assisted in the Death (should have gone down with Fidelity)
Samole's = Pioneer/Assisted in the Death (should have gone down with Fidelity)
Levy = Not sure of his real achievements in the dedicated field/should have kept his fingers away from dedicateds.

I wonder what would have happened, if Fidelity died its natural death and CXG?Krypton etc never existed and Excalibur was never founded?

Just look at Mike's Timeline and look at the beautiful things created around 1988 - 1992 from the other Manufacturers and then comes the death with the birth of Excalibur & Levy's China invasion.

This all sounds so very harsh, but am I really that far of base?

Regards

Nick
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Steve B
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Post by Steve B »

Interesting view point Nick

to be honest I think no individual(s) or Company can be blamed for the death of the dedicated chess computer ..
I think if Jesus Christ himself owned a chess computer company back then we would still be in the same situation we are in today

the blame rests on the PC engine and its rise in playing strength

I remember going to the ICD shop near my house in the 1980's to check out the latest chess computers
they were the largest distributor of chess computers in the USA
the place was always packed..phones ringing off the hook

what most folks really cared about was "strength of play"
and only that
folks would have no interest in keeping an older model ...they would try to trade in a weaker one for a stronger one+cash
as the PC became stronger and stronger the interest in dedicated units became weaker and weaker
in the PC'S wake we were left with a few "holdover" collectors that never made the change over to the PC...like myself
when I would go into the shop I was not interested in an eprom upgrade to make my computer stronger..i wanted the new module set and I wanted to keep the older module set..intact
instead of paying $300 for a Dallas eprom to be fitted into my Amsterdam modules I shelled out more then twice that amount for the complete set..
the folks at ICD thought I was nuts but always very happy to see me
:P

the rise of Ebay has sparked an interest in the old computers ...
where given a little cash and some free time..one can quickly acquire a decent collection
that is a good development..actually it saved the hobby from total extinction

Retro Regards
Steve
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Post by Cyberchess »

Steve B wrote:I remember going to the ICD shop near my house in the 1980's to check out the latest chess computers
they were the largest distributor of chess computers in the USA
the place was always packed..phones ringing off the hook
Ah yes, they were located in Bellemore, NY back in those days. At some point, they moved the retail store to Huntington Station and acquired a larger place in Massapequa.

Friends from my local chess clique introduced me to Steve Schwartz and I.C.D. (now ChessUSA) way back in '79.

Reminiscing...
John
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Post by Steve B »

Cyberchess wrote:
Steve B wrote:I remember going to the ICD shop near my house in the 1980's to check out the latest chess computers
they were the largest distributor of chess computers in the USA
the place was always packed..phones ringing off the hook
Ah yes, they were located in Bellemore, NY back in those days. At some point, they moved the retail store to Huntington Station and acquired a larger place in Massapequa.

Friends from my local chess clique introduced me to Steve Schwartz and I.C.D. (now ChessUSA) way back in '79.

Reminiscing...
John
That's right
very tiny parking lot in the Bellmore shop
you could always tell if Steve was in
his Jaguar would be parked right in front of the store
if I added up all the money I spent there..i figure I paid for at least 3/4 of that Jag

Penniless Now Regards
Steve
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Post by Cyberchess »

Hello Steve:

I didn't know about the Jaguar, though I recall that I.C.D. was a broker for the now defunct Kaypro Daisy-Wheel Printer.

Steve Schwartz told me that he ceased carrying the Fidelity line due to numerous quality control issues with many of the inexpensive plastic units. At some point, they became an authorized Novag service provider. They could extend your warranty and save you the hassle of shipping your broken unit back to Novag if repairs were needed.

They were "the only game in town" ( :P pun intended) for us New Yorkers, and we all helped finance Steve Schwartz's comfortable retirement.

I will PM you a humorous I.C.D. anecdote from back in the day...

Retro Shopping Recollections Regards,
John
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Post by Mike Watters »

Steve B wrote:Interesting view point Nick

to be honest I think no individual(s) or Company can be blamed for the death of the dedicated chess computer ..
I think if Jesus Christ himself owned a chess computer company back then we would still be in the same situation we are in today

the blame rests on the PC engine and its rise in playing strength

I remember going to the ICD shop near my house in the 1980's to check out the latest chess computers
they were the largest distributor of chess computers in the USA
the place was always packed..phones ringing off the hook

what most folks really cared about was "strength of play"
and only that
folks would have no interest in keeping an older model ...they would try to trade in a weaker one for a stronger one+cash
as the PC became stronger and stronger the interest in dedicated units became weaker and weaker
in the PC'S wake we were left with a few "holdover" collectors that never made the change over to the PC...like myself
when I would go into the shop I was not interested in an eprom upgrade to make my computer stronger..i wanted the new module set and I wanted to keep the older module set..intact
instead of paying $300 for a Dallas eprom to be fitted into my Amsterdam modules I shelled out more then twice that amount for the complete set..
the folks at ICD thought I was nuts but always very happy to see me
:P

the rise of Ebay has sparked an interest in the old computers ...
where given a little cash and some free time..one can quickly acquire a decent collection
that is a good development..actually it saved the hobby from total extinction

Retro Regards
Steve
Nick/Steve

I agree with Steve's comments. One of the insights I gained from meeting that Saitek software engineer was that during the period Nick mentioned Saitek lost money on each and every top of their range model sold - Leonardo, Galileo, Renaissance. The company thought there were other benefits from continuing with them but the top end of the market was killed by PCs, nothing else.

Mike
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Post by ricard60 »

I also agree with Steve, the first dedicated units were sold a lot because PC's were not in the market by that time, but after the rise of PC's the dedicated units were left only for us, the collectors.
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Post by Mike Watters »

Nick

My take on your question Hero, Villain or Both.

(1) Peter Jennings - Though I've read his history page I don't know enough about him to vote for Hero. I have tried to buy Microchess and its manual and Kim-1 on Ebay a couple of times and my pathetic bids have been trumped. The chess computers which contain his program(s) are quite entertaining and endearingly retro.

(2) Ron Nelson - Hero. Despite the other thread the only thing that really counts for me is that he was the pioneer who paved the way, and quickly developed useful chess computers. To work for Sid Samole those years must have also required some heroic qualities.

(3) Sid Samole - Hero and Villain.
Hero - Had the vision. Took the risks. Made chess computers a desirable object at a reasonable price worldwide. As responsible as anyone for the development and popularity of chess computers in the 80s.
Villain - Dubious selling methods (Pity The Poor Chess Computer Buyer). At the forefront of ridiculous Elo claims and poor reliability which harmed the industry over time. Cheated Mephisto contributing to its demise.

(4) David Levy - Hero
In Europe as responsible as anyone for the development and popularity of computer chess through his bet which challenged and energised chess programmers, through many books and articles, organising and promoting tournaments, and even his appearances on German TV playing a chess robot. His software company helped produce some innovative and influential machines Mark III, Mark V, Milton Bradley robot and furthered the careers of a number of programmers and software engineers.

On balance I think his activities as an entrepreneur and program broker helped sustain the industry for longer than it would have otherwise existed after the market for middle and high end machines shrunk through the late 80s - early 90s. Unfortunately this took the form of a plethora of low budget regurgitated formats and programs. When the opportunity was there for something a little better eg Tiger Grenadier he helped the industry provide it, but the market was just not there.

Believe me Nick I have tried to find the Levy negatives. Not promoting the names of the programmers would be one, no doubt protecting his own investment. I can't agree with your other negatives as being accurate.

All the best
Mike
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Post by spacious_mind »

Well, you might be right. I can't help thinking though that in a declining market if just one main quality manufacturer like Mephisto would have survived while instead the others did not survive, we might still have today someone selling interesting dedicated computers. With the increasing renewed interested for these nowadays, since chess software is no longer a realistic chess partner on PC's, dedicateds would be receiving new fans every day. It just needed a good survivor really.

Whatever store shelf space was left available for dedicated computers was taken up by cheap imported massed produced computers therefore this space was taken away from any manufacturer ie Mephsito who might instead have survived.

Therefore PC software did not kill them all off, it was just another alternative method to play chess, however impactful it may have been.

So irrespective of other achievements however Grand they may be.. I still consider that 3 of the people who helped start the craze to also be absolutely most responsible for the death. You see there should never be a compromise in quality and they compromised.

Best regards
Nick
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