HIARCS Chess Forums Forum Index HIARCS Chess Forums
World Championship winning computer chess software program & downloads for chess database, analysis and play on PC, Mac and iPhone
 
 QuestionsQuestions   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Private MessagesPrivate Messages   Log inLog in 

Repeat performance issues with dedicated units?
Goto page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    HIARCS Chess Forums Forum Index -> Main Lobby / General Discussions
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author
Cyberchess
Member


Joined: 08 Jan 2014
Posts: 462

PostPosted: Thu Sep 04, 2014 8:08 am    Post subject: Repeat performance issues with dedicated units? Reply with quote

Greetings fellow schachcomputer enthusiasts!

While I donít play against dedicated units much these days, I recall how when I did, I often found myself caught up in the repeat performance dilemma. Since, unlike us humans, computers will walk down the same dark alley and get mugged over and over again, it was often necessary to take steps to prevent this from happening repeatedly. This posed a perplexing problem when rehearsing my intended opening lines for tournament play against humans: I used to play practice games with the computer to check for hidden tactics, etc., but once a winning line was found, even if based on inaccurate play, it became necessary to scrap the preferred line and play an alternative. This situation is probably a good way to improve oneís chess in general, as it requires the player to fend for oneself in a wider variety of positions, each with their own particular nuances, tactical possibilities, etc., but isnít particularly of much use when preparing specific lines for tournaments. Many times I was forced to lookup the correct continuation in MCO and use the Novagís user programmable opening book to augment the included ROM book. Of course, not all dedicated chess computers have this feature, requiring that the user program the start position in by hand. The user programmable book, on the other hand, was susceptible to corruption due to static charge buildup, and would often require that the contents be purged and everything had to be re-programmed (a drag). This hasnít been an issue with chess playing software these days, as the opening book size is for all practical purposes unlimited. In the PC, smartphone, Rev II and tablet world, changing opening books is easier than changing oneís socks, so the only real issue is how the computer handles the resulting middle and endgames.

So, getting back to the topic of this post: how do you handle this dilemma with your traditional dedicated units?

Regards,
John
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Steve B
Forum Elder


Joined: 29 Jul 2007
Posts: 8429
Full Name: Steve B
Location: New York City USofA

PostPosted: Thu Sep 04, 2014 11:25 am    Post subject: Re: Repeat performance issues with dedicated units? Reply with quote

Cyberchess wrote:
So, getting back to the topic of this post: how do you handle this dilemma with your traditional dedicated units?

Regards,
John


Well John
this is where having a decent sized collection can really pay handsome dividends
once you start to get into the same ol ..same ol...with any particular unit
you just box it up...pack it away...
and pull another one off the shelf

by the time you cycle back to the first computer..you don't even remember
what lines it will /will not repeat

Continuous Loop Regards
Steve
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Cyberchess
Member


Joined: 08 Jan 2014
Posts: 462

PostPosted: Thu Sep 04, 2014 10:00 pm    Post subject: Re: Repeat performance issues with dedicated units? Reply with quote

Steve B wrote:
Cyberchess wrote:
So, getting back to the topic of this post: how do you handle this dilemma with your traditional dedicated units?

Regards,
John


Well John
this is where having a decent sized collection can really pay handsome dividends
once you start to get into the same ol ..same ol...with any particular unit
you just box it up...pack it away...
and pull another one off the shelf

by the time you cycle back to the first computer..you don't even remember
what lines it will /will not repeat

Continuous Loop Regards
Steve

Greetings Steve!

Owning close to 600 dedicated units certainly has its advantages. Once one becomes well acquainted with the dedicated unitís opening preferences and style, the machineís effective rating does drop considerably. Upon game conclusion, the human has every right to consult opening references, PC programs, and seek advice from sage-like human consultants, while the traditional dedicated unit remains a known quantity.

While Iíve never owned more than about 7 dedicated units at the same time (some were vintage units purchased for resale only), I did manage to procure quite a few long out of production Cyberchess program packs over the years. I like to leave a game in progress sitting on a table and allow the bout to ensue for weeks to several months per game. Afterwards, I sometimes review the game with the included analysis modules, though will have long forgotten the game before playing through half of my supply. By the time that I get around to replaying the game, itís like seeing it for the first time. Sometimes itís fun to make the same blunders over and over again. Confused

Rotation Is Key Regards,
John
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Steve B
Forum Elder


Joined: 29 Jul 2007
Posts: 8429
Full Name: Steve B
Location: New York City USofA

PostPosted: Thu Sep 04, 2014 10:27 pm    Post subject: Re: Repeat performance issues with dedicated units? Reply with quote

Cyberchess wrote:


I did manage to procure quite a few long out of production Cyberchess program packs over the years.n


Cyber Chess...now that really is reelin in the years
so thats where you got your nickname from?
Razz

CyC came out the same year that the first dedicated chess computer did(1977)
i think this hastened its short lived commercial success
actually i liked the concept and still have mine
dont recall how many game packets i have

Rotary Club Regards
Steve
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Cyberchess
Member


Joined: 08 Jan 2014
Posts: 462

PostPosted: Thu Sep 04, 2014 11:42 pm    Post subject: Re: Repeat performance issues with dedicated units? Reply with quote

Steve B wrote:
Cyberchess wrote:


I did manage to procure quite a few long out of production Cyberchess program packs over the years.n


Cyber Chess...now that really is reelin in the years
so thats where you got your nickname from?
Razz

CyC came out the same year that the first dedicated chess computer did(1977)
i think this hastened its short lived commercial success
actually i liked the concept and still have mine
dont recall how many game packets i have

Rotary Club Regards
Steve

Cool Yes! You are absolutely correct on all 3 counts. Life can be so unfair sometimes. If only Cyberchess by Cyber Enterprises had been produced a couple of years earlier, it would have been a raving commercial success. They actually did try to keep up with the times and successfully converted the system to the early Apple PC platform, but by then they were severely overshadowed by the emerging PC chess playing software and the ever improving dedicated units. We were too flabbergasted by the realization of a computer chess opponent we could enjoy at home (myself included) to give Cyberchess a fair trial.

I actually discovered this forum while trying to describe Cyberchess to a former colleague. I ran a Google search, found little on Cyberchess, though the forum came up because someone had started a thread that included non-electronic chess devices. Gallant Knight published something remotely similar although not nearly as interesting, and geared specifically for beginners.

I actually own 2 complete units because I needed to purchase the second in order to obtain several additional program packs to add to my collection. According to their sales literature, they also produced specialty endgame program packs, though I donít currently own any of these.

Horse and Buggy Chess Forever Regards,
John
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Steve B
Forum Elder


Joined: 29 Jul 2007
Posts: 8429
Full Name: Steve B
Location: New York City USofA

PostPosted: Fri Sep 05, 2014 12:08 am    Post subject: Re: Repeat performance issues with dedicated units? Reply with quote

Cyberchess wrote:


They actually did try to keep up with the times and successfully converted the system to the early Apple PC platform,


interesting stuff
i didnt know that
thanks John

you re-kindled my interest in CYC so i did an inventory of my game packets:


1)PROGRAM PACKET-CHESS TEST
4 game cards
chess test A GAMES 1A and 1B
Chess Test B games 2A and 2B

2)PROGRAM PACKET-STANDARD
4 GAME CARDS
OPENING:
2 game cards -Queens Gambit Accepted
RETI
Ruy Lopez

3)PROGRAM PACKET-PROFESSIONAL-001
4 game cards
opening:
Philodor's DEFENSE
Ruy Lopez
Larson
Evan's Gambit

4)PROGRAM PACKET-AMATEUR-001
4 game cards
opening:
Centre Counter
French
Sicilian
Queens Gambit Declined

SO only 4 packets(16 games) in total

can you estimate how many packets(games) you have?

CyberSearch Regards
Steve
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Cyberchess
Member


Joined: 08 Jan 2014
Posts: 462

PostPosted: Fri Sep 05, 2014 1:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Greetings Steve!

Glad to hear that you have a re-kindled interest in this antiquated game system. The only place that seems to have the Apple PC game files, executable, etc. is on bit torrent which I donít really care for as they allow illegal copying of copyrighted material. That said, Iím sure that the copyright has long expired on Cyberchess, as the Cyber Enterprises company is long defunct. It would be a nice project if someone were to decompile the executable, port it over to Windows for use with the old binary data files (game packs). Presumably they also converted all the old analysis texts that accompany the modules, but locating these would likely prove difficult at this late date. I have, however, seen screen shots of the system up and running in Apple DOS and it looks well suited to that environment.

Until such a time, the really nice thing about the system is that you can leave it set up forever Ė without ever worrying about burning out a transformer, etc. I used to leave a clear plastic cover over the Cyberator so as not to allow it to get dusty. Often times I would be too busy to continue my game in progress, forget all about it until one day I would notice that my custom chessboard seated beside it was covered in dust. I own about 20 program packs, with 9 of them being Pro Modules. The Pro Modules are particularly difficult to find, and this is why I needed to purchase a second Cyberator unit in order to obtain more.

It sounds like you own the comlete Cyberchess package but you donít mention if you have the accompanying analysis texts that go with the modules (Program Packs). Of course, you donít really need those to enjoy Cyberchess, though sometimes itís nice to check the annotations afterwards.

Cyber Census Regards,
John
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Cyberchess
Member


Joined: 08 Jan 2014
Posts: 462

PostPosted: Fri Sep 05, 2014 3:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Okay, I was multitasking earlier and neglected to point out key details:
If you still have your analysis texts, they should be one in each envelope containing the modules (program packs).

I purchased my first starter set back when e-bay became a popular venue (circa 1998). I shortly thereafter purchased a second set containing more and different modules. Iím now starting to think that along with the initial purchase the buyer had a choice of the included 4 modules. This would explain why people were often selling the set with one or more of the 4 modules being different than those of other sets.

Around the Y2K period someone from California was auctioning the comprehensive set shy only a handful of modules. He started the auction at a rather high $600, though, to my astonishment, the modules numbered in the hundreds. Obviously Cyber Enterprises had high aspirations for this product and invested heavily in the creation of all these well thought out modules and texts. Doubtful that anyone would plunk down his opening bid price, I sent him a message offering to purchase some or all of the Pro Modules that I wanted more of. He flatly rebuked my offer, stating that he had no intention of breaking up the set, and seemed taken aback at my suggesting he do so. Predictably, no one met his opening bid price; he never relisted any or all of these, and never reconsidered my offer to buy some of them.

Every now and then someone auctions a complete or partial starter set on e-bay. A complete starter set should contain a Cyberator, 4 modules, corresponding analysis texts, instructions, order forms, advertising literature and some letters of endorsement. All of these items should be packed in a shallow non-descript cardboard box.

Cyber Reflections Regards,
John
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
mrcdoc
Member


Joined: 19 Apr 2012
Posts: 46
Location: California, USA

PostPosted: Fri Sep 05, 2014 5:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Maybe an answer?
http://chesseval.com/Eldest/CyberChess.htm

Maurice
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Steve B
Forum Elder


Joined: 29 Jul 2007
Posts: 8429
Full Name: Steve B
Location: New York City USofA

PostPosted: Fri Sep 05, 2014 10:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cyberchess wrote:

I own about 20 program packs, with 9 of them being Pro Modules.


Thanks John for the estimate
very nice collection
yes I do own all of the accompanying text sheets and instructions etc etc
I have their product list which does show many program packets for sale but I never thought they actually produced them all

it might be an interesting exercise to put a couple of the old dedicated computers to the test to see how high they score in a few of the games
I guess ill keep an eye open on Ebay to see if I can pick up some more game packets

Cyber 70's Regards
Steve
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
ifekali
Member


Joined: 05 Dec 2013
Posts: 97

PostPosted: Fri Sep 05, 2014 11:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Would any of you two guys care to post a video of this thing in operation? For the life of me, I am unable to figure out how this works ...

I'm quite sure I'm not the only one ... Smile

-Izmet
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Steve B
Forum Elder


Joined: 29 Jul 2007
Posts: 8429
Full Name: Steve B
Location: New York City USofA

PostPosted: Fri Sep 05, 2014 11:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ifekali wrote:
Would any of you two guys care to post a video of this thing in operation? For the life of me, I am unable to figure out how this works ...

I'm quite sure I'm not the only one ... Smile

-Izmet


Its a Paper simulation
no electronics involved
you insert the game cards into the main unit and turn the attached dial which reveals moves pre-printed on the card
here is a photo of mine:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/10261668@N05/859035454/in/set-72157600922175252

here are some game card packets:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/10261668@N05/858197243/in/set-72157600922175252/


John can probably describe it better then i can


CyberMania Regards
Steve
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Cyberchess
Member


Joined: 08 Jan 2014
Posts: 462

PostPosted: Sat Sep 06, 2014 4:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

@ Maurice:
Great website! One of the first A.I. psychiatric diagnosis and behavioral science tools (Ad-Infer). What would B.F. Skinner think about that? Weíll either be positively or negatively reinforced for choosing the correct or incorrect move while playing Cyberchess. Thanks to your excellent coverage of said, I now realize that it was actually ported over to the Tandy platform Ė not the Apple platform as I had mistakenly asserted earlier. Chalk it up to time and memory.

@ Steve:
Idea Excellent idea! Iím interested to see how some of the higher end dedicated units fare on the Pro Module set @ level 4.
Obtaining additional Pro modules will likely be a real challenge these days, but it never hurts to run a search for them periodically. Iíve all but given up hope at this point.

@ Izmet:
Things are a bit hectic right now as far as recording a video is concerned, but Iíll do my best to answer any questions you may have.

Amassing a Cyber Army Regards,
John
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Cyberchess
Member


Joined: 08 Jan 2014
Posts: 462

PostPosted: Sat Sep 06, 2014 4:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Okay, apparently there actually was also an Apple II port back in 1982. I guess my memory isnít so bad after all:

http://tanrunomad.com/vintage-computer-collection/apple-ii-games/

Maurice, you may wish to update your Chess-Eval entry accordingly.

Twisted Evil Cylon Attack Imminent Regards,

John
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
fourthirty
Member


Joined: 06 Dec 2013
Posts: 277
Full Name: Greg
Location: San Francisco

PostPosted: Sat Sep 06, 2014 4:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ifekali wrote:
Would any of you two guys care to post a video of this thing in operation? For the life of me, I am unable to figure out how this works ...

I'm quite sure I'm not the only one ... Smile

-Izmet


+1. I finally (just now) realized that the Apple II program is an emulation of the paper based game. Boy have I been confused!

I would also like to see a video of how the original (paper) Rube Goldberg looking contraption works.

Wheel - Of - CyberChess Regards...
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    HIARCS Chess Forums Forum Index -> Main Lobby / General Discussions All times are GMT
Goto page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6  Next
Page 1 of 6

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group
Protected by Anti-Spam ACP