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Repeat performance issues with dedicated units?
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fourthirty
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Full Name: Greg
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 10, 2014 3:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cyberchess wrote:
Once the correct move has been found, pulling the tab on the game card a fraction of an inch reveals the next series of 6 candidate moves and so forth.


John - So I assume the "next series of 6 candidate moves" are somehow generated as an extension of the previous move selection? Still trying to visualize how that would work!

The concept somewhat reminds me of the old "Choose Your Own Adventure" series of books. Never pick door #1...

Looking forward to the match against the Lean and Mean Citrine.
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Steve B
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 10, 2014 10:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cyberchess wrote:


I was wondering about this myself. On some of the units that I have owned, entering [Setup Mode], clearing the board and inputting a position by hand seemed to have the effect of having the computer commence calculating without checking the position against positions it had stored in the opening book. Would this work on the Citrine since there is apparently no way to disable the book on this model?


the problem here is that the Citrine might not think it can still castle either 0-0 or 0-0-0
also..setting up the position from scratch on every move until we are safely out of book is a bit of a chore

Cyberchess wrote:


Bear in mind that in the Cyber universe, the contest doesn’t begin until the first diagrammed position is reached.

Hoping the game’s still on regards,
John


that's right and I think Citrine will be out of book shortly after we reach the diagrammed position anyway so I don't think very many moves will be impacted by allowing Citrine to use its book
however I wont know that until we actually begin the game

I could of course choose anther dedicated in the same elo range that does allow its book to be turned off

I suggest we start a game with Citrine ..allowing its book...
if Citrine chooses too many book moves not on the list of possible move choices we abort and I pick another dedicated
also..you could perhaps help matters along by choosing a Pro game that leaves book early

Match Hanging On A Thin Thread Regards
Steve
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Cyberchess
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 10, 2014 1:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Steve B wrote:
Cyberchess wrote:


I was wondering about this myself. On some of the units that I have owned, entering [Setup Mode], clearing the board and inputting a position by hand seemed to have the effect of having the computer commence calculating without checking the position against positions it had stored in the opening book. Would this work on the Citrine since there is apparently no way to disable the book on this model?


the problem here is that the Citrine might not think it can still castle either 0-0 or 0-0-0
also..setting up the position from scratch on every move until we are safely out of book is a bit of a chore

Cyberchess wrote:


Bear in mind that in the Cyber universe, the contest doesn’t begin until the first diagrammed position is reached.

Hoping the game’s still on regards,
John


that's right and I think Citrine will be out of book shortly after we reach the diagrammed position anyway so I don't think very many moves will be impacted by allowing Citrine to use its book
however I wont know that until we actually begin the game

I could of course choose anther dedicated in the same elo range that does allow its book to be turned off

I suggest we start a game with Citrine ..allowing its book...
if Citrine chooses too many book moves not on the list of possible move choices we abort and I pick another dedicated
also..you could perhaps help matters along by choosing a Pro game that leaves book early

Match Hanging On A Thin Thread Regards
Steve

Good point. I totally overlooked the issue of the digital dedicated unit lacking castling and en passant flags – taken for granted on all modern chess GUIs these days.

We will have to make an exception for the Citrine and allow it to use its book. You would then just have to enter the appropriate mode that allows the operator to make moves for both sides. Once the diagrammed position has been reached, we will wait for the specified length of time and record the move with the highest evaluation as the move played and so forth. Moves played from the Citrine’s book that do concur with the actual move to be played will be accredited, however, moves played from the Citrine’s book that differ from the actual move played will not result in a point reduction. Alternatively, we could make no scoring changes until the digital unit is out of book and forced to perform calculations.

Since I only own 9 Pro Modules at this time, there isn’t too much I can do about screening for games that deviate from known lines early.

Guess we’ll just have to…

play it by ear regards,
John
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Cyberchess
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 10, 2014 1:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

fourthirty wrote:
Cyberchess wrote:
Once the correct move has been found, pulling the tab on the game card a fraction of an inch reveals the next series of 6 candidate moves and so forth.


John - So I assume the "next series of 6 candidate moves" are somehow generated as an extension of the previous move selection? Still trying to visualize how that would work!

The concept somewhat reminds me of the old "Choose Your Own Adventure" series of books. Never pick door #1...

Looking forward to the match against the Lean and Mean Citrine.

Okay, pretend you are reading a chess book from the perspective of one of your favorite chess champions. Starting from the opening position, you will be presented with 6 moves to consider, one of which being the actual move that the champion played in the game. You will make your choice, be scored accordingly, and the process will repeat for every subsequent move of the game. Your goal is to conclude the game with a plus score on the wheel. Concluding with a negative score results in a win for Cyberchess, and a score of 0 results in a draw.

Hope this helps regards,
John
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Steve B
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 10, 2014 2:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cyberchess wrote:


We will have to make an exception for the Citrine and allow it to use its book. You would then just have to enter the appropriate mode that allows the operator to make moves for both sides. Once the diagrammed position has been reached, we will wait for the specified length of time and record the move with the highest evaluation as the move played and so forth. Moves played from the Citrine’s book that do concur with the actual move to be played will be accredited, however, moves played from the Citrine’s book that differ from the actual move played will not result in a point reduction. Alternatively, we could make no scoring changes until the digital unit is out of book and forced to perform calculations.



very good
I like the idea we record no scores until Citrine is out of book which I think will be soon after the start position

And so with the match terms finalized...
Citrine will now go into training at Grossinger's in Upstate NY
a full media blackout will be imposed during this period of sequestration
for Sparring partners Citrine will be practicing against ..

https://www.flickr.com/photos/10261668@N05/858186021/in/set-72157600922175252

and...
https://www.flickr.com/photos/10261668@N05/858189369/in/set-72157600922175252/lightbox/

Getting Into Fighting Form Regards
Steve
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fourthirty
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 10, 2014 4:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cyberchess wrote:
and the process will repeat for every subsequent move of the game.


Okay, I think I finally understand! I would still like to clarify the statement above (thanks for your patience).

Let's say that I chose a "poor" move and received a negative score. I must assume that the process then repeats (next move selection) from the correct "chess champion" optimal move, not the sub-optimal move that I selected.

In that manner the game would progress in a linear fashion. If the game progressed from MY selected move, the game tree would grow at the rate of 6^n! On move 5 there would be approximately 8,000 positions, after 10 over six million. Over a typical 40 move game we are looking at approximately 13 Nonillion possible positions.

Speaking of game trees, how many trees would be cut down to produce enough game cards to deal with 13,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 positions?

Game cards the size of the New York Phone Book Regards...
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Cyberchess
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 11, 2014 2:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

fourthirty wrote:
Cyberchess wrote:
and the process will repeat for every subsequent move of the game.


Okay, I think I finally understand! I would still like to clarify the statement above (thanks for your patience).

Let's say that I chose a "poor" move and received a negative score. I must assume that the process then repeats (next move selection) from the correct "chess champion" optimal move, not the sub-optimal move that I selected.

In that manner the game would progress in a linear fashion. If the game progressed from MY selected move, the game tree would grow at the rate of 6^n! On move 5 there would be approximately 8,000 positions, after 10 over six million. Over a typical 40 move game we are looking at approximately 13 Nonillion possible positions.

Speaking of game trees, how many trees would be cut down to produce enough game cards to deal with 13,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 positions?

Game cards the size of the New York Phone Book Regards...

Greg,

Choosing a poor move, equally playable move, or the actual move played in the game, may or may not result in a point deduction, however, the actual move played must be revealed and made on the board before proceeding to the next 6 candidate moves. If I failed to pick the actual move played on my first try, I used to pick again from the remaining choices for training purposes, but any point additions/subtractions were based solely on the first choice.

I’m not a huge fan of chopping down trees on this or any other planet – even for the worthwhile pursuit of creating Pro Modules. Perhaps an entire village of Tibetan monks could be tasked with scribing the positions on onion skin instead.

Confused Writer’s cramp regards,
John
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Steve B
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 11, 2014 4:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Speaking Of The Citrine...

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Novag-Citrine-Chess-Computer-w-extras-/201168474546?pt=Games_US&hash=item2ed69351b2

A Tad Over Priced Regards
Steve
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Cyberchess
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 11, 2014 4:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Steve B wrote:
Speaking Of The Citrine...

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Novag-Citrine-Chess-Computer-w-extras-/201168474546?pt=Games_US&hash=item2ed69351b2

A Tad Over Priced Regards
Steve

Whoa! $1,350

What would a new-old-stock Star Diamond likely fetch on the bay?

The price is not right regards,
John
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Steve B
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 11, 2014 5:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cyberchess wrote:


http://www.ebay.com/itm/Novag-Citrine-Chess-Computer-w-extras-/201168474546?pt=Games_US&hash=item2ed69351b2

Whoa! $1,350

What would a new-old-stock Star Diamond likely fetch on the bay?

The price is not right regards,
John


This site used to track prices of schachcomputers sold on Ebay
the site hasent beren updated in a while but you can see that the SD sold for about 250-300 Euro

http://www.elpeon.com/index.php?page=2&mod=novag

My Citrine cost me $400 ..NEW IN SHRINK WRAP ..back in 2006
the seller does include the ENHANCED pieces which were not sold by Novag
they are larger and fit the Citrine board better then the original pieces
not sure what the pieces sold for exactly but it wouldn't be more then another $150 or so

Here is a Citrine auction with the enhanced pieces from last year:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Novag-Citrine-Chess-Computer-inc-Enhanced-Pieces-/221228736785


basically this guy is trying to at least double his money

Not Gonna Happen Regards
Steve
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Steve B
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 11, 2014 11:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

John...

There are many threads here in the forum regarding the Citrine
i rifled through some of them and i thought I would give you a taste of the Citrine's strength of play

here is a game played back in 2007
Spacious Mind was the operator
Citrine Vs. Radio Shack 2250 XL


[Date "2007.10.10"]
[White "Novag Citrine"]
[Black "Radio Shack Champion 2250XL"]
[Time Control 30 Sec./Avg]
[Result "1-0"]
[ECO "C10"]
[Annotator "Mind,Spacious"]
[PlyCount "145"]


1. e4 e6 2. d4 d5 3. Nd2 dxe4 4. Nxe4 Nd7 5. Nf3 Ngf6 6. Bd3 Be7 7. O-O Nxe4
8. Bxe4 Nf6 9. Bd3 c5 10. Be3 cxd4 11. Bxd4 O-O 12. c3 Qc7
13. Be5 Qb6 14. Qc2 h6 15. Qb3 Rd8
16. Qxb6 axb6 17. Nd4 Rd5 18. Rfe1 Ng4 19. Bg3 Bf6 20. Be4 Rd8
21. Nf3 Be7 22. Bc7 Rd7 23. Bxb6 Nf6 24. Bc2 Nd5 25. Bd4 Rd8 26. Ne5 Bg5
27. Be4 b5 28.
Rad1 Rxa2 29. Nc6 Rd7 30. Bxd5 Rxd5 31. Nb4 Rxd4 32. Nxa2 Rxd1 33. Rxd1 Bf6
34.Nb4 Kf8 35. Nc6 Ke8 36. Nd4 Bd7 37. f3 e5 38. Ne2 Bg5 39. Kf2 f5 40. g3 Be6
41. f4 exf4 42. Nxf4 Bc4 43. h3 Bxf4 44. gxf4 Ke7 45.
Re1+ Kf6 46. h4 g5 47. hxg5+ hxg5 48. fxg5+ Kxg5 49. Ke3 Be6 50. Ra1 f4+ 51.
Ke4 Bd7 52. b3 Bc6+ 53. Ke5 Bg2 54. Kd4 f3 55. Ke3 Kg4 56. Ra8 f2 57. Rg8+ Kf5
58. Kxf2 Bd5 59. Rb8 Bc6 60. Rd8 Ke5 61. Ke3 Bb7 62. Rd4 Bc6 63. Kd3 Ke6 64.
Rd8 Ke7 65. Rd4 Ke6 66. c4 bxc4+ 67. bxc4 Bb7 68. c5 Ke5 69. Rd6 Be4+ 70. Kc4
Bf3 71. Rh6 Bd5+ 72. Kc3 Ke4 73. c6 1-0

FINAL POSITION

2250 XL Resigns here

Citrine has asked if you could please relay a message to the Cyberator for him?

Be Afraid..
Be Very Afraid Regards
Steve
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Reinfeld
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 12, 2014 6:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I suspect, apart from Steve and Cyberchess, that I'm the only other member in the forum who possesses one of these babies - and I love it. I think it's one of the better training methods I've ever encountered. I envy all the extra program packs Cyberchess has acquired. I've never seen them on ebay. I purchased my set at a garage sale, complete with the Pal Benko endorsement, and it came with three standard packs of program cards.

We had a discussion a while back on this, here:

http://www.hiarcs.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=4111&sid=e27f2708ba1be6749c0d7f1a74f7231c

As for testing the paper simulator against a dedicated, Cyberchess said this:

Quote:
Just realized we can do this anyway. For training purposes I used to try to deduce the correct move from the remaining choices if I had picked an incorrect or equally viable move. Since the digital unit requires no training, we will simply input the correct move and proceed to the next array of choices. Come to think of it, this is probably how the analog unit was designed to be used anyway.


Hmmm.

At the PRO level, Cyberchess tests the user's strengths against GM-level games, just like the old Learn Chess from the Masters-style books. It suggests that top-level performance would hit a USCF rating between 2050 and 2200. Too many wrong choices, and you're prompted to lower the skill level. Make the right choices, and you're (supposedly) a master.

I haven't figured this out completely yet, but this much is clear:

1. Cyberchess gives you six possible move choices on each move.
2. Five are wrong - the score drops accordingly (on the wheel, depending on the chosen skill level).
3. Some of those wrong moves are actually deemed acceptable, and lead to plus scores on the Cyberchess wheel.
4. Only one move is "right" - that leads to the next move in the game in the program pack.
5. The program packs include verbal annotations to the move choices, with limited analysis. OK - at least you can see the general reasoning.
6. Opening theory has admittedly evolved since the 70s, but the programmed pack games do not start from the opening position - even when this device was created, the manufacturers understood the need to avoid booked-up opposition.
7. The thing measures the relative strength of the human player, matched against a professional's moves, for better or worse. You're supposed to tune it down or up, depending on how your choices fare.

So, to play a game against a dedicated (or even something kickass strong like Rev II) doesn't strike me as that hard. You just let the dedicated make the "wrong" moves, and score accordingly, thus developing a Cyberchess score, with the understanding that it's not perfect. Would work like this:

1. If the dedicated chooses a move Cyberchess dislikes, mark the score accordingly.
2. Take back the dedicated's "wrong" move and enter the move Cyberchess prefers.
3. Repeat, scoring accordingly to the end.

It's certainly possible that the dedicated will continue to choose "wrong" moves, but it's not going to choose them every time, or even most of the time. Most of the time, the choices favored by Cyberchess will be decent, and the strong programs will favor them, though rank blunders are possible.

The key bit, from my standpoint, is checking the dedicated's overall score AFTER the test ends, by the simple expedient of running its choices against a good strong engine.

In other words, if you try a match, you're going to have a dedicated play against Cyberchess, and see whether it matches the simulation's top level. If it doesn't, that's the score according to Cyberchess. Period. Post-mortem analysis is the place to test the accuracy of the Cyberchess score. That means a two-part process, but it doesn't seem too cumbersome to me.

Either way, this is a wonderful thread. I appreciate all the background material I did not know, and I would pay real money for some of those additional program packs if I could find them.

- R.
_________________
"You have, let us say, a promising politician, a rising artist that you wish to destroy. Dagger or bomb are archaic and unreliable - but teach him, inoculate him with chess."
– H.G. Wells
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Steve B
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 12, 2014 11:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Reinfeld wrote:


Would work like this:

1. If the dedicated chooses a move Cyberchess dislikes, mark the score accordingly.
2. Take back the dedicated's "wrong" move and enter the move Cyberchess prefers.
3. Repeat, scoring accordingly to the end.




R-

the glitch we were trying to work out is when the dedicated chooses a move(from its book) NOT on the move list
this occurred in my test game above using Rev ll-Hiarcs

one thing i was wondering is if it would be more interesting to have John show the six move choices BEFORE Citrine chooses its move (as a human player would see them)
OR
After it chooses its move
its really makes no difference to Citrine as obviously it will not be reading the choices
might be more suspenseful if Citrine has to choose a move "blind" so to speak
on the other hand it might be more interesting for the forum to see the choices while Citrine is on the move
whats your thoughts on that?
any preference?

anyway ..it seems we have all of the glitches worked out and we are now waiting for John to get his hands on his Cyberator which is currently in hiding in a safe house after defecting from the USSR

CyberNation Regards
Steve
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Cyberchess
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 13, 2014 1:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Reinfeld wrote:
I suspect, apart from Steve and Cyberchess, that I'm the only other member in the forum who possesses one of these babies - and I love it. I think it's one of the better training methods I've ever encountered. I envy all the extra program packs Cyberchess has acquired. I've never seen them on ebay. I purchased my set at a garage sale, complete with the Pal Benko endorsement, and it came with three standard packs of program cards..

Razz It’s great to learn of another satisfied Cyberchess owner. As you correctly point out, there were several good chess books that rate your play according to your predicting the correct move in professionally played games. One such book was ”How Good Is Your Chess” by Leonard Barden. While I own a copy of the aforementioned and maybe 2 others, none of them offer the reader a choice of candidate moves; but rather have the reader try to deduce the correct move from scratch.

Cyberchess Club Regards,
John
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Cyberchess
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 13, 2014 1:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Steve B wrote:
Reinfeld wrote:


Would work like this:

1. If the dedicated chooses a move Cyberchess dislikes, mark the score accordingly.
2. Take back the dedicated's "wrong" move and enter the move Cyberchess prefers.
3. Repeat, scoring accordingly to the end.




R-

the glitch we were trying to work out is when the dedicated chooses a move(from its book) NOT on the move list
this occurred in my test game above using Rev ll-Hiarcs

one thing i was wondering is if it would be more interesting to have John show the six move choices BEFORE Citrine chooses its move (as a human player would see them)
OR
After it chooses its move
its really makes no difference to Citrine as obviously it will not be reading the choices
might be more suspenseful if Citrine has to choose a move "blind" so to speak
on the other hand it might be more interesting for the forum to see the choices while Citrine is on the move
whats your thoughts on that?
any preference?

anyway ..it seems we have all of the glitches worked out and we are now waiting for John to get his hands on his Cyberator which is currently in hiding in a safe house after defecting from the USSR

CyberNation Regards
Steve

Steve,

I kind of think it would be nice to show the candidate moves beforehand so that the audience can play along at home.

Moscow On The Hudson Regards,
John
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