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Steve B
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Post by Steve B »

paulwise3 wrote:Hi Nick,
I finished the 5 testgames for the Excalibur Grandmaster (running on alkaline batteries). It scored better then Steve's Platinum. I wonder if Steve tested it with 30s fixed instead of average, or could there really be a difference in playing style/strength? The playing style looked the same though.
NOPE
I used 30 sec./avg.
I doubt there is any difference in strength or playing style between the Platinum(747P) and regular GM's(747K)
probably some random differences due to pondering ..

There's No There... There.. Regards
Steve
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paulwise3
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Post by paulwise3 »

spacious_mind wrote:
paulwise3 wrote: ....
2. Today I got a second Sphinx Comet (bought it for a friend) and decided to also test it with testgame2. There were again variations in the moves, it was weaker then the first Comet. So I tried it a second time after totally resetting it. And now the result was even worse...
So I start to wonder if the 30-second level is the right level to test this machine.
In one of the other testgames it found mate in two only after I raised the level to 60 seconds. And in a free game I played today a situation came along that it made a move to prevent material loss, but giving me the opportunity for mate in two. So that is probably 5 ply it has to search. Only after raising the level to 10 minutes (B4) it played a move to prevent the fast mate.
....
Regards, Paul.
Hi Paul,
....
Regarding the Comet, you could try other level settings to see how it performs. I usually only play 30 seconds per move or 3 minutes per move.
....
I personally don't think scoring a computers strength at for example an hour a move does a lot for me since I or no one else plays at that setting so the rating really becomes irrelevant when you play. But that's just my opinion.

Best regards
Hi Nick,

I totally agree with you about the level settings. Since I started this collecting hobby (november last year) I did not play a game with a machine with more then 30 seconds per move. I just didn't take the time. Maybe with the GM, I will give it a serious chance. But only after I've beaten it at 30s/move, for which I also didn't take the time.

Today I got the Novag Carnelian II in the house, which really is a beauty to look at. It claims to have an elo of 1900 USCF, but that cannot be true. On schach-computer.info it is rated somewhere between 1400-1500. And testing it with testgame 3 it gets about the same rating as the Sphinx Comet. And just like the Sphinx Comet it needs at least 60s/move to see some mate-threats.
But as I said, it is a beautiful machine, with real wooden pieces. A pity they didn't put a stronger program in it.
I will do some more testing and let you know.

By the way, this one does seem to have a Dave Kittinger program!?

Wooden pieces regards,
Paul
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Post by spacious_mind »

paulwise3 wrote:
Hi Nick,

I totally agree with you about the level settings. Since I started this collecting hobby (november last year) I did not play a game with a machine with more then 30 seconds per move. I just didn't take the time. Maybe with the GM, I will give it a serious chance. But only after I've beaten it at 30s/move, for which I also didn't take the time.

Today I got the Novag Carnelian II in the house, which really is a beauty to look at. It claims to have an elo of 1900 USCF, but that cannot be true. On schach-computer.info it is rated somewhere between 1400-1500. And testing it with testgame 3 it gets about the same rating as the Sphinx Comet. And just like the Sphinx Comet it needs at least 60s/move to see some mate-threats.
But as I said, it is a beautiful machine, with real wooden pieces. A pity they didn't put a stronger program in it.
I will do some more testing and let you know.

By the way, this one does seem to have a Dave Kittinger program!?

Wooden pieces regards,
Paul
Hi Paul,

Yes the Carnelian II one of the last Novag computers. It's a sad one really because in reality Novag cheated everyone when they sold it. They made it look like a high class computer and put a good expensive price on it, but in reality it's a computer from 1989 which they and later Excalibur (in our new Millennium) both sold. Readily available on Ebay for about $50 instead of the Carnelian II asking price of I think it was $229,00 or was it $249.00? when it came out.

It seems that every Manufacturer at the time of their death really did not make any friends. Any chess player buying their first chess computer and spending $249.00 for this computer must have felt sad and cheated for having spend the money, since technology had moved on and expectations much higher.

Best regards
Nick
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Post by paulwise3 »

Hi Nick,

$229,- for this machine? That's really sad. Maybe they needed bonus money to say goodbye to all their personnel...
I got it from the original owner, who bought it a year ago for 109 euro. It seems hardly used. I guess he was disappointed about it, because I got it for much less then $50. But as I said, it is great to look at, and still suitable for a quick game between other work to do.

Bonus regards,
Paul.
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Post by spacious_mind »

I just realized that MCP5 also has a computer rating. It shows for:

HP Vertra 486DX2-66 MHz - 2390 ELO
Magnavox Maxstation 386SX-16 MHz = 2135

I think I am going to stay with the DOS programs a little while longer. I am curious to see how the rating tests compare with the ratings.

Best regards
Nick
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Post by paulwise3 »

Hi Fernando,

I read in another thread that you never let your machines play each other. I agree with Steve that you are missing half the fun. Like yesterday, when I estimated the Carnelian II of equal strength with the Sphinx Comet. So I decided to let them play two games against each other. And to my surprise the Carnelian crushed (I hope you still like that word ;-)) the Comet, both with white and black pieces!
So I decided to rate it with all 5 testgames. Results are to follow, but in testgame 1 it scored an impressive 2460 elo overall. That was in great contrast to testgame 3.

More results soon to follow.

Crushed regards,
Paul
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Post by paulwise3 »

Hi Nick,

Here the global results of the Novag Carnelian II. I add the results for the Sphinx Comet (normal style) I earlier sent you. As for the Comet, you are right about the randomness. For instance, my second Comet scores a lot lower.

Code: Select all

Name	t01	t02	t03	t04	t05	(1..5)/5
Novag Carnelion II
W	2716	1820	1750	1708	1227	1844
B	2204	1710	1718	1787	1206	1725
T	2460	1765	1734	1747	1217	1785
CXK Sphinx Comet
W	2632	2014	1918	1784	1655	2001
B	1408	1376	1392	1648	1585	1482
T	2020	1695	1655	1716	1620	1741
There is already a lot to say about this, for instance the rating for black and white differs not too much for the Carnelian, as opposed to the Comet. Also, the rating for testgame 5 is dramatic low. So there will be the weak spot for the Carnelian... Furthermore, in game 5 it makes a strange mistake: it plays 8. Nf3? instead of the most played 8. a3.
I will send you the Carnelian details tomorrow.

Regards, Paul
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Post by paulwise3 »

I just retried the 5th testgame, but it sticks to losing the bishop at move 8 with white. It moves Nf3 or Ne2.
I did test 5 before test 4, so I was afraid it would perform just as bad in test 4, but that was not the case. Very peculiar.

Here are also the details about its games against the Sphinx Comet.
With white it played:
[Event "30s/move average"]
[Site "Eindhoven"]
[Date "2015.03.25"]
[White "Novag Carnelian II, Level WE7"]
[Black "CXG Spinx Comet, Level A6"]
1. e4 e5 2. Bc4 Nc6 3. Nc3 Qg5 4. Nf3 {! Given that it has
trouble with mate in two, and giving away its bishop in game 5, I can hardly
believe that it has looked 6 ply ahead to see the bishop sacrifice on f7.
Could it be a judgement for active play? Who knows?} Qxg2 5. Rg1 Qh3 6. Bxf7+
Kd8 {Because the Carnelian keeps the pressure, the rest is also fun to look at ;-)}
7. Rg3 Qh6 8. d4 Qd6 9. dxe5 Nxe5 10. Nxe5 Qxe5 11. f4 Qf6 12. Bc4 Bc5 13. Qd5
d6 14. e5 Qe7 15. Ne4 c6 16. Qd2 d5 17. Bxd5 Bb4 18. c3 cxd5 19. Qxd5+ Bd7 20.
Qxb7 Bxc3+ 21. bxc3 Rc8 22. Nd6 Rc7 23. Qb8+ Bc8 24. Rd3 Qh4+ 25. Kf1 Qxh2 26.
Nxc8+ Rd7 27. Nd6+ Ke7 28. Qe8# 1-0

With black, it played a very bad opening, which gives the Comet a good position:
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Qe7? 3. d4 exd4 4. Qxd4 Nc6 5. Qd3 Nf6 6. Nc3 Qd6? 7. Be3 Be7 8. Qxd6 cxd6?
After this, the Comet builds a good positional advantage, but finds no plan to beat the Carnelian. So finally the Carnelian comes loose with some tactical manouvres, wins a piece and then the game.
If someone is interested, I will be happy to post the whole game.

Best regards,
Paul.
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Post by paulwise3 »

Last remarks about testgame5 for CarnelianII:
- Up until level WF3-90s/move it keeps playing 8.Nf3 or Ne2
- At level WF4-120s/move it plays 8.Qh5.
- All the black levels up until BD8-4 ply+8ply capture, it keeps playing 8.Nf3/Ne2.
- From level BE1 (1 ply) to BE4 (4 ply) it keeps playing 8.Nf3/Nf2.
- At level BE5-5 ply it plays 8.Qh5.
So I decided to give up on this position :-(. Guess it's some kind of horizon effect.

Regards, Paul
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Post by spacious_mind »

I updated the Rating List by adding Novag Carnelian II which Paul tested and also Krypton Regency and Novag Constellation Quattro:

Image

Surprisingly Krypton Regency did not score as well on Level 53 as CXG Legend. Maybe they are not exactly the same? I am going to have to repeat the tests on level 23 to do an exact comparison between Regency, Legend and Krypton Challenge.

Best regards
Nick
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Post by spacious_mind »

Here are the latest chess programs tested:

1 GAVON LIME V. 66
2 GAVON ADROIT CHESS V. 0.3
3 GAVON ROBOCIDE
4 HP VECTRA DX2-66MHZ M-CHESS PRO 5.0 CAUTIOUS
5 HP VECTRA DX2-66MHZ M-CHESS PRO 5.0 NORMAL
6 HP VECTRA DX2-66MHZ M-CHESS PRO 5.0 AGGRESSIVE
7 MAXSTATION 386SX-16 MHZ M-CHESS PRO 5.0 CAUTIOUS
8 MAXSTATION 386SX-16 MHZ M-CHESS PRO 5.0 NORMAL
9 MAXSTATION 386SX-16 MHZ M-CHESS PRO 5.0 AGGRESSIVE
10 EXCALIBUR GRANDMASTER

Excalibur Grandmaster was tested by our Dutch friend Paul.

M-Chess Pro 5.0 written by Marty Hirsch has three style settings - Cautious, Normal and Aggressive. I decided to test all three styles to see which is best. Lime v. 66 is written by Richard Albert. Adroit Chess v. 0.3 is written by Daniel White. And, Robocide is also written by Daniel White.

RESULTS TABLE

Image

A total of 40 Chess programs/styles have now been tested.

For a better overview I have included the Manufacturer's rating, where I could find them. If they are colored in white, then they are confirmed. If they are colored in pink then it is an estimate which still needs to be confirmed. I also added columns for Schachcomputer.Info's rating at Active Chess and Tournament Level to provide a different overview for comparison. The Gavon program ratings are taken from the Gavon Website.

Lastly, with M-Chess Pro, the program itself provides a rating of it's estimated strength. It showed the following for the two computers I used for the tests:

HP Vectra 486/DX2-66 MHz = M-Chess Pro 5.0 Program Rating: 2390
Magnavox MaxStation 386SC-16 MHz = M-Chess Pro 5.0 Program Rating: 2120

I used these ratings as M-Chess Pro 5.0 Manufacturer rating.

Best regards
Nick
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Post by paulwise3 »

Hi Nick,

Nice overview, great job!
I will do some more tests in the coming time and send them to you. But your testing production capacity seems much vaster then mine ;-)

Concerto testing regards,
Paul.
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Post by spacious_mind »

Hare 5 more additions to the tests:

1) GAVON SISSA V. 2.0
2) HP VECTRA DX2-66MHZ REX CHESS 2.30
3) MAXSTATION 386SX-16 MHZ REX CHESS 2.30
4) GAVON JABBA V. 1.0
5) MEPHISTO ROMA 68000

Sissa V. 2.0 is written by Christophe Mandin and Jabba V. 1.0 is written by Richard Allbert.

I have also updated the Rating list by adding SSDF ratings. The SSDF ratings are from the highest rating posted by SSDF and taken from the Computer Schach & Spiele Chess Magazine. The month published is also listed.

Image

Richard Lang's programs really suffer on Test Game 4. They tend to be clueless in these type of game positions. Roma 68000 scored only 1467 and Berlin 68000 scored 1576!

Best regards
Nick
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Post by spacious_mind »

Mephisto Vancouver 68000, has just been added. I played it in all 3 settings. Active, Risky and Solid. Risky performed best in these tests:

Risky: 2169
Active: 2155
Solid: 2087

Mephisto Berlin that I had tested previously on the Active setting had scored lower with a rating of 2141. These scores are all very consistent with other rating lists.

Also added are 3 more Gavon's making it a total of 14 tested so far:

GAVON CLAUDIA V. 02 BY ANTONIO GARRO
GAVON NAPOLEON BY MARCO PAMPALONI
GAVON VICE V. 1.0 BY BLUEFEVER

The updated Rating list now looks as follows. I have added an additional column for Computer Chess Report (CCR). So now all the major historical rating lists are shown.

Image

I think that the above comparisons shows well that this Old Time Masters rating test really does work as an alternative method for comparing chess computers.

Best regards
Nick
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Post by fourthirty »

Great work Nick!

Have you tested your Novag Citrine yet?
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