opinions on various Mephisto modules (for Exclusive/Modular)

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jarek
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opinions on various Mephisto modules (for Exclusive/Modular)

Post by jarek »

Hello Chess Friends,

what is the most customizable of the Mephisto modules?
I mean the one that has the most strength levels and/or playing styles?

I know that Polgar has the adjustable ELO setting.
I have read the instruction of Roma II and it also has quite many levels - around 80! However, I read on some German forum that Roma II has a "boring" play style.

What is your experience?
Any recommendations, favourite modules etc?

As a beginner, I am quite happy with MM I :)
At the same time I'd love to have Polgar (but it is quite expensive for my pocket) or Roma II (which seems to be quite rare).

kind regards,
Jarek
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Eric Wainwright
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Post by Eric Wainwright »

Hi jarek,

I own both the Polgar and Vancouver modules, along with the MM II, IV, and V modules. Both the Polgar and Vancouver have a high degree of customizability, with the nod going to the Vancouver.

The Polgar has a full set of customizable levels (Normal, Tournament, Blitz, Search Depth, Problem Solving, and Infinite) plus that ELO option that you mentioned. It also has a much nicer user interface and expanded display than the earlier Mephisto modules written by the same programmer, Ed Schroeder (i.e. MM III (Rebel) through MM V).

The Vancouver has all levels the Polgar has, minus the ELO option, but with a few unique ones like Easy and Handicap. I like the Handicap level because you can enter a certain percentage and the computer will try to adapt it’s thinking time to that percentage of your total thinking time. If you take longer, the computer will take longer too. It also has lots of other customizable options like six book styles (Normal, Human, Gambit, Classic, Modern, and Blitz), three playing styles (Active, Solid, and Risky), the ability to set piece values, turn on and off pawn structure evaluation, plus a host more. Note that the programmer, Richard Lang, completely rewrote his program after the Roma module and added a lot of the new options at this time, so I would stick with subsequent modules like Almeria, Portorose, Lyon, Vancouver, and London. I also note there was a large jump in playing strength starting with the Lyon version.

You won’t go wrong with either the Polgar or one of the later Lang modules. I tend to prefer the Lang modules for their large variety of options and their slightly better play, especially in the end game.

Regards,
-Eric
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mclane
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Post by mclane »

yes polgar is nice but MM1 search strategy is unique.
there is no other dedicated chess computer with that kind of search strategy.

maybe mark5 or sphinx40 comes close.

my favourite engine is still the nitsche/henne mephisto III in the MM1 or in other versions.
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Post by Celadus »

mclane wrote:yes polgar is nice but MM1 search strategy is unique.
there is no other dedicated chess computer with that kind of search strategy.

maybe mark5 or sphinx40 comes close.

my favourite engine is still the nitsche/henne mephisto III in the MM1 or in other versions.


Why do you prefer this engine?
jarek
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Post by jarek »

Hi Eric,
thanks for a very interesting answer!
It seems I have one module you don't have that is:
Mephisto B&P (Blitz- und Problemlösungs-Modul)
I have acquired it quite recently so I cannot say much about it yet :)

Jarek
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Post by jarek »

mclane wrote:yes polgar is nice but MM1 search strategy is unique.
there is no other dedicated chess computer with that kind of search strategy.
Hi mclane,
how do you know it?
by "feel" after playing many games?
or did you analyse the code of chess program?
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scandien
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Post by scandien »

the MMI is running the Mephisto 3 program.

In Computer Chess Digest 1983, Thomas Nitsche explain in 2 artickes the playing style (and program specification) of his program.

The Mephistoprogram calcate few move per second ( comparing to other computer ) but was really playing human like games.
It is really more efficient versus human than versus machine ..

br

Nicolas
jarek
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Post by jarek »

Hi Eric (and other Chess Friends),

one more question to you as you own MM II:
Today I have received MM II module in the mail (I bought it at a bargain price).
I played a couple of games with this module and it acts different to other modules I saw "in action".
I mean it flashes leds differently to eg. MM I and MM V.

When computer makes a move, first the "light" at the starting square is turned on (without blinking).
However, when I lift the piece, then both start and destination squares start blinking very quickly almost like crazy until I put the piece on the destination square.
The game proceeds normally, but the different style of blinking is a bit disturbing to me.
Is it normal for MM II or there is something wrong with my module?
Can it be switched off?
I prefered the other style of "blinking" I saw in MM I / MM V.

thanks!

regards
Jarek
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Post by jarek »

scandien wrote:the MMI is running the Mephisto 3 program.

In Computer Chess Digest 1983, Thomas Nitsche explain in 2 artickes the playing style (and program specification) of his program.
thanks Nicolas!
I found Computer Chess Digest 1983 available for download here
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Eric Wainwright
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Post by Eric Wainwright »

Hi Jared,

Your MM II module is working fine. This module was written by the Swedish programmer, Ulf Rathsman, and was based on an earlier chess program called Princhess. The B&P module you have is a derivative of the MM II.

Each Mephisto programmer was responsible for his own user interface and there was no standard. There are differences in all aspects of the user interface from the lights blinking to the display flashing to even the sound and timing of the beeps. Each module also seems to have its own way of entering board positions for solving problems. For some reason, Ed Schroeder decided that his modules (MM III-V, Polgar) would not produce a beep when the human made his move. I find this annoying since if you don’t set your piece correctly, the computer won’t recognize your move and you might be sitting there waiting a long time for a response. There are several other annoying aspects of the III-V modules I don’t like, but these were all fixed in the Polgar module. However, the beep issue remains in all of them.

So, the user interface of each module is a little different and that’s something that you just need to get use to. Enjoy your module hunt!

Regards,
-Eric
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Steve B
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Post by Steve B »

Eric Wainwright wrote:
There are differences in all aspects of the user interface from the lights blinking to the display flashing to even the sound and timing of the beeps. For some reason, Ed Schroeder decided that his modules (MM III-V, Polgar) would not produce a beep when the human made his move. I find this annoying since if you don’t set your piece correctly, the computer won’t recognize your move and you might be sitting there waiting a long time for a response. There are several other annoying aspects of the III-V modules I don’t like, but these were all fixed in the Polgar module. However, the beep issue remains in all of them.



Regards,
-Eric
Hi Eric ..I guess by MMIII you mean the Rebel 3.0 by Schroeder ?
Mephisto never officially released a module with the MMIII name

anyway...
interesting discussion about the beeps\sounds
actually the B&P module has no option to turn off the sound at all...ever

Talkative Regards
Steve
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Eric Wainwright
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Post by Eric Wainwright »

Hi Steve,

Yes, by "MM III" I mean the Rebel module (actually, I think it was the Rebel 5.0). I'm not sure why Mephisto named this one differently than the rest.

Synonym regards,
-Eric
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Steve B
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Post by Steve B »

Eric Wainwright wrote:Hi Steve,

Yes, by "MM III" I mean the Rebel module (actually, I think it was the Rebel 5.0). I'm not sure why Mephisto named this one differently than the rest.

Synonym regards,
-Eric
Actually your right ..its 5.0
Typo Regards
Steve
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mclane
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Post by mclane »

Celadus wrote:
mclane wrote:yes polgar is nice but MM1 search strategy is unique.
there is no other dedicated chess computer with that kind of search strategy.

maybe mark5 or sphinx40 comes close.

my favourite engine is still the nitsche/henne mephisto III in the MM1 or in other versions.


Why do you prefer this engine?
Nitsche and Henne made a commercial dedicated chess computer
that is computing only a few positions per second.
between 1-3 per second.
normal chess computers at that time did 500 (if they had knowledge) or even 1500 positions per second (by not using that much positional knowledge).

most of the time mephisto III uses for deciding WHICH moves should be followed deeper in the computation and which not.
so this is a very human approach.
mephisto III maybe chooses a few (say 3) interesting moves out of
20 or 30 and looks how these moves develop.

i would say this is how a normal chess player is also working.

your MM2 module is brute-force. it follows ALL possible moves up to a certain depth. that means it has no BIG evaluation function to prune away weak moves. instead it tries them out.

consider a child in front of a locked door.

it has a bunch of 30 keys in his hand.
one or maybe 2 or 3 of the keys will open the door.
but which keys ?

what MM2 does is to try out each key after another until the door opens.
what mephisto III tries is to look on the keys and look on the lock and try to select those keys that COULD open, and put away the too big and too small keys.

IMO Mephisto III is doing an intelligent method.

a stupid machine without knowledge about doors, keys and locks would have to try out one key after another. until it works.
What seems like a fairy tale today may be reality tomorrow.
Here we have a fairy tale of the day after tomorrow....
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Re: opinions on various Mephisto modules (for Exclusive/Modular)

Post by Nejc »

Hi,

I was thinking of getting the Mephisto with the MMII module as a gift for a relative beginner (smart 8 year old).

How strong is it on the lower end (level 1)? Is it appropriate for a beginner or stil too strong in your opinion?
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