Collector's Corner..Does Hash Ram Really Matter?

Post by **Steve B** » Sat Dec 20, 2014 1:10 pm

With all of the recent interest and discussion about the Saitek Risc 2500 and Mephisto Montreux a recap is in order...

Montreux has a later version of the King program but was released with only 128kb Ram
the Risc has an earlier version of the King program and was sold with Ram ranging from 128kb to 2MB

Selective Search Rates the Montreux(128kb)-2211
The Risc 2500(128kb) is rated slightly lower at 2192..
however the Risc 2500 with 512kb is rated slightly higher then the Montreux at 2232

a quadrupling(4x) of the ram produced an elo gain of 40 Elo for the Risc 2500
following this result a 2MB Risc 2500 would be 16x more ram so its rating could be another 20-30 Elo or about 2260..a solid 70 pts more then its lower rammed brother

Lets see if 2MB Ram makes a significant difference in a 3 game mini-match Vs. the Montreux

the settings for both computers:
1 Min./Avg. Time Control
Active Play Style
Tournament book
Expert Strength

In The First Game
2500 was out of book at move 6,Montreux at move 9
Montreux is forced to 0-0 by hand losing a P at move 25 and another at move 33
up two P's for nothing the 2500 trades down and coasts to the win

[Date "2014.12.20"]
[Round "1"]
[White "Saitek Risc 2500(2MB)"]
[Black "Mephisto Montreux"]
[TimeControl "1 Min./Avg."]
[Result "1-0*"]

1.e4 c5 2.c3 e5 3.Nf3 Nc6 4.Bc4 Qc7 5.d3 Nf6 6.Ng5 Nd8 7.O-O h6 8.Nf3
Be7 9.Na3 a6 10.Qb3 d6 11.Qa4+ Bd7 12.Qc2 b5 13.Bb3 a5 14.Qe2 Qb7 15.Rd1
Ne6 16.Bc2 Bc6 17.d4 exd4 18.cxd4 Bxe4 19.Bxe4 Qxe4 20.Qxb5+ Nd7 21.dxc5
Nxc5 22.Nd4 d5 23.f3 Qe5 24.Nc6 Qf6 25.Rxd5 Qe6 26.Rd1 Ra6 27.Nxe7 Kxe7
28.Bf4 Qf6 29.Re1+ Re6 30.Be3 Rc8 31.Rac1 Qh4 32.f4 Kf8 33.Qxa5 Kg8
34.b4 Rce8 35.bxc5 Rxe3 36.Rxe3 Rxe3 37.c6 Re2 38.Rf1 Nf8 39.c7 Re8
40.Nc4 Qe7 41.Qe5 Qxe5 42.fxe5 Rc8 43.Rxf7 Ne6 44.Nd6 Rxc7 45.Rxc7 Nxc7
46.a4 Kf8 47.Kf2 Ke7 48.Ke3 g6 49.Nb5 Ne6 50.a5 Nc5 51.Nd4 g5 52.Nc6+
Ke6 53.Kd4 Na6 54.g4 Kd7 55.Kd5 Nc7+ 56.Kc5 Ne6+ 57.Kb6 Kc8 58.a6 Nf4
59.Ne7+ 1-0

FINAL POSITION
[fen]2k5/4N3/PK5p/4P1p1/5nP1/8/7P/8 w - - 0 59[/fen]
Montreux Resigns Here

RamRod Regards
Steve

Post by **Harvey Williamson** » Sat Dec 20, 2014 2:25 pm

Steve,

I would expect that the longer the time control for the match the more the extra ram might help.

Ram regards,
Harvey

Post by **Steve B** » Sat Dec 20, 2014 7:35 pm

Harvey Williamson wrote:Steve,

I would expect that the longer the time control for the match the more the extra ram might help.

Ram regards,
Harvey

Yes i am sure.. but even with the shorter time control the Risc 2500 won and it is the computer with the higher ram..the Montreux has the lower ram but the stronger program

Game two Soon Regards
Steve

Post by **Steve B** » Sat Dec 20, 2014 8:08 pm

In The Second Game
2500 was out of book first again this time at move 9,Montreux was out at move 14
once again the 2500 wins a P early on however the Montruex manages to win the P back leaving the position a lifeless draw

[Date "2014.12.20"]
[Round "2"]
[White "Mephisto Montreux"]
[Black "Saitek Risc 2500(2MB)"]
[TimeControl "1 Min./Avg.
[Result "1/2-1/2"]

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.d4 exd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nxc6 bxc6 6.e5 Qe7 7.Qe2 Nd5
8.c4 Ba6 9.g3 g6 10.Bg2 Bg7 11.O-O O-O 12.Re1 Rae8 13.Na3 Nb6 14.Bf4 g5
15.Be3 Qxe5 16.Rab1 Qf5 17.Qd2 Nxc4 18.Nxc4 Bxc4 19.Rbd1 Bxa2 20.Qxd7
Qxd7 21.Rxd7 Bd5 22.Bxd5 cxd5 23.Rxd5 h6 24.Rc1 Bxb2 25.Rxc7 a6 26.Ra5
Re6 27.Ra7 Rd8 28.R5xa6 Rxa6 29.Rxa6 Rd1+ 30.Kg2 *

FINAL POSITION
[fen]6k1/5p2/R6p/6p1/8/4B1P1/1b3PKP/3r4 w - - 0 30[/fen]

the position is dead even
i called it a draw here

the final game will be at 3 Min./Avg.

The Ramones Regards
Steve

Reinfeld · Post by **Reinfeld** » Sun Dec 21, 2014 5:40 am

Excellent work, Steve - you're tackling a straightforward question in a straightforward manner, and potentially resolving a long string of debates.

I look forward to Game 3 - and if it ends in a draw, I'd suggest continuing the match until we get a clear resolution.

- R.

Post by **Steve B** » Sun Dec 21, 2014 9:41 am

For the third and final game i bumped the TC up to 3 Min.\ Avg

In The Game...
Both computers were out of book at move 13
following a now familiar pattern 2500 wins an early P and then another
pieces are traded down but Q's are still on the board
2500 reaches a totally won game by move 31 but the Montreux insists on chasing the white K across the board until it exhausts its Q checks
an interesting game to playback featuring 3 Q's in play at the same time

[Date "2014.12.21"]
[Round "3"]
[White "Saitek Risc 2500(2MB)"]
[Black "Mephisto Montreux"]
[TimeControl "3 Min./Avg."]
[Result "1-0"]

1.d4 d5 2.c4 c6 3.Nf3 Nf6 4.Nc3 e6 5.e3 Nbd7 6.Bd3 dxc4 7.Bxc4 b5 8.Bd3
a6 9.e4 c5 10.d5 c4 11.dxe6 cxd3 12.exd7+ Qxd7 13.Bg5 Bb7 14.O-O Be7
15.e5 Ng4 16.Bxe7 Qxe7 17.h3 Nh6 18.Qxd3 Rd8 19.Qe2 O-O 20.Rad1 Nf5
21.Rxd8 Rxd8 22.Rd1 Rd7 23.g4 b4 24.gxf5 bxc3 25.bxc3 Bxf3 26.Qxf3 Rxd1+
27.Qxd1 h5 28.e6 Qg5+ 29.Kf1 fxe6 30.fxe6 Qf5 31.Qd8+ Kh7 32.e7 Qxh3+
33.Ke2 Qg4+ 34.Kd2 Qf4+ 35.Kc2 Qxf2+ 36.Kb3 Qf7+ 37.Ka3 Qc4 38.e8=Q
Qxc3+ 39.Ka4 Qc4+ 40.Ka5 Qxa2+ 41.Kb6 Qb1+ 42.Kxa6 Qa1+ 43.Kb7 Qh1+
44.Qc6 Qb1+ 45.Kc7 Qf5 46.Qdd5 Qxd5 47.Qxd5 Kg6 48.Kd6 1-0

FINAL POSITION
[fen]8/6p1/3K2k1/3Q3p/8/8/8/8 w - - 0 48[/fen]

Monty Resigned
2500 announces a mate in 6 here

2500 wins both games as White and Draws the one game as Black
final match score 2.5-.5

from this small 3 game match we can clearly see the strength of the extra Ram

Ramming It Home Regards
Steve

Sargon1972 · Post by **Sargon1972** » Tue Dec 23, 2014 4:03 pm

Hello Steve,

Well ....maybe but all depends also on what opening is coming on the board ,
Perhaps play 3 more games with the exact same openings/Level/settings and change colours .
Yes i fully agree when more time the bigger Memory will make a difference
I am very curious about the results then

keep u busy regards,Hans

Post by **Steve B** » Tue Dec 23, 2014 4:43 pm

Sargon1972 wrote:Hello Steve,

Well ....maybe but all depends also on what opening is coming on the board ,
Perhaps play 3 more games with the exact same openings/Level/settings and change colours .
Yes i fully agree when more time the bigger Memory will make a difference
I am very curious about the results then

keep u busy regards,Hans

Hi Hans
i think additional testing will have to wait until after the holiday season and the New Year
until then ....

Sleigh Riding and Caroling Until I Drop Regards
Steve

Larry · Post by **Larry** » Fri Dec 26, 2014 3:51 am

This mini match does seem to confirm one thing, the Montreux opening
book is bigger. We discussed this a couple of years back as it was assumed
the Montreux, having 256kb rom versus the r2500's 128kb rom, had a bigger
opening book. Seems it does, but probably not much bigger.
Montreux not only had smaller ram, but two black games in a three game
match.
If you could look at the source code of these two machines, one would
look like a carbon copy of the other. There would be a few minor parameter
changes, that's all.
Regarding the limited life span of the monty/r2500, I think you will find
it is the GAL display chips that were estimated to have only perhaps a twenty
year life. That would be with average use, you would have to suspect. Most
stronger dedicateds these days are sitting up the back of wardrobes getting
used only very occasionally, and they will be working fine in another twenty
years. A bigger danger with these units is that they run on a regulated 5.7volts
and it is easy to absent mindedly plug in the usual 9v adaptor, thus cooking
the computer. Rest assured some of the estimated 500 manufactured
Montreux's have met with this fate and ended up in the wheelie bin. If the
GAL chips blow, the whole game goes kaput, not just the display.
L
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