And the programmer of the Excalibur Mirage is ...

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paulwise3
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And the programmer of the Excalibur Mirage is ...

Post by paulwise3 »

Hi all,
Tired of trying to search the threads for this topic, I will just enter a new one. As I hope to be soon the happy owner of the Excalibur Grandmaster, I asked our highly valued friend Hein Veldhuis if he could find out who is the programmer of this machine. His answer was surprising. Having not the time for an in depth search, he scrolled through his archive and found something else: the programmer of the Mirage is Dave Kittinger!

As there seem to be people who assume that the Mirage, Ivan, Igor and Grandmaster all use the same program, that could rule out Nelson and Horvath. Seeing all the game tests from Nick, I will be happy to use these for the Grandmaster when I get it.

This new hobby costs me 8 days a week... ;-)

Regards, Paul.
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Fernando
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Re: And the programmer of the Excalibur Mirage is ...

Post by Fernando »

paulwise3 wrote:Hi all,
Tired of trying to search the threads for this topic, I will just enter a new one. As I hope to be soon the happy owner of the Excalibur Grandmaster, I asked our highly valued friend Hein Veldhuis if he could find out who is the programmer of this machine. His answer was surprising. Having not the time for an in depth search, he scrolled through his archive and found something else: the programmer of the Mirage is Dave Kittinger!

As there seem to be people who assume that the Mirage, Ivan, Igor and Grandmaster all use the same program, that could rule out Nelson and Horvath. Seeing all the game tests from Nick, I will be happy to use these for the Grandmaster when I get it.

This new hobby costs me 8 days a week... ;-)

Regards, Paul.
Maybe so, but which is the special credibility of your friend? I would like to know someone who knows things that even our guru Blincoe does not know...

Fern
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Re: And the programmer of the Excalibur Mirage is ...

Post by Steve B »

paulwise3 wrote:Hi all,
the programmer of the Mirage is Dave Kittinger!
and the number of possible programmers for the GM/Mirage continues to rise with each passing day
i think the only one not yet named is...

Mark Uniacke Regards
Steve
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Fernando
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Post by Fernando »

You forgot Blas Pascal.

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Post by Fernando »

In fact the idea of Kittinger on GM Excalibur is very very difficult to swallow. Kittinger was even at the beginning of the 80's better programmer that GM Excalibur reveals. You should imagine a program by K done for Excalibur in XXI century would be lot stronger.

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paulwise3
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Post by paulwise3 »

Hi, I knew this kind of reactions would come...

I only recently got interested in chesscomputers and all the stuff around it. So do not blame me for not knowing Blincoe. But I do know that both in the netherlands and germany, Hein is a well respected source of information. Since 1985 he has collected a large archive of documents, papers and journals from the old days, started making a database in 2001, and beginning to publicise it in 2008 on internet. And he is still busy making more information available. See http://www.schaakcomputers.nl/hein_veldhuis/
Disadvantage for you is that it is mainly in Dutch.
So far as to his credibility.

On the other hand, the only real fact I presented is the programmer of the Mirage.

For the rest, I am referring to discussions on schachcomputer.info, and wiki pages on the wiki-elo-liste. For instance, on the pages about the GM and the Mirage it is claimed that both are related to Igor. But especially for the GM that could be doubtful, seeing other discussions here and there.

@Fernando: As for "a program by K done for Excalibur in XXI century", the GM was introduced in 1997, so it's XX century. Also, like other manufacturers, Excalibur introduces new machines with weaker (older?) programs. I already read about an Igor II, which was much weaker than the original Igor...

So, if I get the GM in the house, I will be happy to perform all kinds of testing to see what type of program is in there...!

Regards, Paul.
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Post by Steve B »

paulwise3 wrote:Hi, I knew this kind of reactions would come...

Hein is a well respected source of information.
On the other hand, the only real fact I presented is the programmer of the Mirage.

I know Hein quite well for many years
I have provided some information for Heins database over the years

I find it hard to believe he thinks the Excalibur Mirage Robot was programmed by Kittinger
my guess is he misunderstood what you were asking him
ask him again
better yet..ask him to post here

Highly Doubtful Regards
Steve
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Post by paulwise3 »

Hi Steve,
Here a translation of his answer to my question about the GM:
"Actually I didn't have time for your question, but still spend an hour searching.
The name of the programmer of the Excalibur Grandmaster has never been publicised by the company Excalibur.
However, while searching, to my surprise I encountered the programmer name of the Excalibur Mirage: Dave Kittinger!

With some test work you might get an idea of the programmer of the Excalibur Grandmaster?
Ron Nelson, Dave Kittinger or still Gyula Horvath ??
"

When I see him in april, I will ask him for more info.

GM regards,
Paul
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Post by spacious_mind »

I would love to hear Hein's Kittinger theory as well. That would be surprising to me as well. It's hard for me to wrap my mind around Kittinger using Horvath's base and just changing the game style. That doesn't sound like something Kittinger would do at all.

Best regards
Nick
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Post by Steve B »

paulwise3 wrote:Hi Steve,
Here a translation of his answer to my question about the GM:
"Actually I didn't have time for your question, but still spend an hour searching.
The name of the programmer of the Excalibur Grandmaster has never been publicised by the company Excalibur.
However, while searching, to my surprise I encountered the programmer name of the Excalibur Mirage: Dave Kittinger!

With some test work you might get an idea of the programmer of the Excalibur Grandmaster?
Ron Nelson, Dave Kittinger or still Gyula Horvath ??
"

When I see him in april, I will ask him for more info.

GM regards,
Paul
Thanks
"encountering" the name Kittinger does not mean Hein is saying Kittinger is the programmer
you will not be able to clone match the GM and the Mirage because they run on different clock speeds
GM-12
Mirage-10

Welcome to the hobby regards
Steve
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paulwise3
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Post by paulwise3 »

Hein gave me specific permission to publicise Dave Kittinger as programmer of the Mirage. I just sent him a mail if he could show his source.
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Post by paulwise3 »

spacious_mind wrote:I would love to hear Hein's Kittinger theory as well. That would be surprising to me as well. It's hard for me to wrap my mind around Kittinger using Horvath's base and just changing the game style. That doesn't sound like something Kittinger would do at all.

Best regards
Nick, why do you think it should be a mix of Horvath and Kittinger? Couldn't it just be a Kittinger program?

Regards, Paul.
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Post by spacious_mind »

Well if it were Kittinger then that answers the "Well known Programmer" theory. :P
Nick
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Post by Steve B »

paulwise3 wrote:Hein gave me specific permission to publicise Dave Kittinger as programmer of the Mirage. I just sent him a mail if he could show his source.
this should be interesting
Nick already showed a "source" about the Mirage appearing at some computer show in Europe back in the early 90's
I think the programmer being credited for the Mirage in that post was a programmer working for the defunct CXG(Owned by Nelson and Samole at this time) who was now involved in Krypton computers



Here is the quote about the Mirage in Nicks post..

Mirage is a new chess computer that Eric White had already announced a year ago, which belongs to the few computers that moves the chess pieces by itself. It has been available in the USA since December of last year, sold through the chain Sears for $499.00. White stated that he is reluctant to throw this new computer with larger quantities into the Market, because with computers of this kind with movable parts a test period is necessary to ensure that there are no technical problems, he has therefore sold the tools for this. Therefore Mirage will now be sold by Excalibur Electronics but supposedly produced by National Telecommunications in Hong Kong. (Nick – my Mirage states “Made in China” hence more likely made in the Shenzen Province factory).

If Mirage is really so susceptible to problems as feared by White, is not yet known. I have just bought one from the USA and it was defect. The computer is a little smaller than the 1983 from Milton Bradley, the 1989 Fidelity with the much improved chess program and the 1991 Phantom from Hegener + Glaser. The play surface has a 23 x 23 cm press sensory board. The computer has 110 levels (Nick – wrong, must be typo it has 100 levels), a learn mode, chess clocks and an LCD-Display. It’s play strength is rated at 1900 ELO points per manufacturer. If and when this computers becomes available in Germany was not elicited
.

here was the actual post...
http://hiarcs.net/forums/viewtopic.php?p=68414#68414

the theory based upon those posts was that the Mirage was programmed by whomever programmed Krypton computers
or at least that's what I think Nicks conclusion was?

Spinning Wheels Regards
Steve
Last edited by Steve B on Sat Mar 14, 2015 12:27 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Post by spacious_mind »

paulwise3 wrote:
spacious_mind wrote:I would love to hear Hein's Kittinger theory as well. That would be surprising to me as well. It's hard for me to wrap my mind around Kittinger using Horvath's base and just changing the game style. That doesn't sound like something Kittinger would do at all.

Best regards
Nick, why do you think it should be a mix of Horvath and Kittinger? Couldn't it just be a Kittinger program?

Regards, Paul.
Because absolutely everything including the evaluations stem from Horvath. It would be like taking just the chess program itself and plugging it into someone else's. That sound like a lot of extra unnecessary work, especially I doubt a renowned programmer would lower himself to doing that. It would be like a Rybka discussion in my mind.

Kittinger's programs had a quite sophisticated evaluation when compared to what Mirage has, why on earth would he tinker with someone else's inferior methods.

Best regards
Nick
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