And the programmer of the Excalibur Mirage is ...

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spacious_mind
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Post by spacious_mind »

Steve B wrote:
paulwise3 wrote:Hein gave me specific permission to publicise Dave Kittinger as programmer of the Mirage. I just sent him a mail if he could show his source.
this should be interesting
Nick already showed a "source" about the Mirage appearing at some computer show in Europe back in the early 90's
I think the programmer being credited for the Mirage in that post was a programmer working for the defunct CXG(Owned by Nelson and Samole at this time) who was now involved in Krypton computers



Here is the quote about the Mirage in Nicks post..

Mirage is a new chess computer that Eric White had already announced a year ago, which belongs to the few computers that moves the chess pieces by itself. It has been available in the USA since December of last year, sold through the chain Sears for $499.00. White stated that he is reluctant to throw this new computer with larger quantities into the Market, because with computers of this kind with movable parts a test period is necessary to ensure that there are no technical problems, he has therefore sold the tools for this. Therefore Mirage will now be sold by Excalibur Electronics but supposedly produced by National Telecommunications in Hong Kong. (Nick – my Mirage states “Made in China” hence more likely made in the Shenzen Province factory).

If Mirage is really so susceptible to problems as feared by White, is not yet known. I have just bought one from the USA and it was defect. The computer is a little smaller than the 1983 from Milton Bradley, the 1989 Fidelity with the much improved chess program and the 1991 Phantom from Hegener + Glaser. The play surface has a 23 x 23 cm press sensory board. The computer has 110 levels (Nick – wrong, must be typo it has 100 levels), a learn mode, chess clocks and an LCD-Display. It’s play strength is rated at 1900 ELO points per manufacturer. If and when this computers becomes available in Germany was not elicited
.

here was the actual post...
http://hiarcs.net/forums/viewtopic.php?p=68414#68414

the theory based upon those posts was that the Mirage was programmed by whomever programmed Krypton computers
or at least that's what I think Nicks conclusion was?

Spinning Wheels Regards
Steve
You know the funny thing is that if Spracklen were suggested I would have been maybe less surprised.
Nick
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Post by Steve B »

spacious_mind wrote:

You know the funny thing is that if Spracklen were suggested I would have been maybe less surprised.
give it some time
sooner or later I am sure someone will suggest them as the programmers as well
:P

Chaos Regards
Steve
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Post by Fernando »

paulwise3 wrote:Hi, I knew this kind of reactions would come...

I only recently got interested in chesscomputers and all the stuff around it. So do not blame me for not knowing Blincoe. But I do know that both in the netherlands and germany, Hein is a well respected source of information. Since 1985 he has collected a large archive of documents, papers and journals from the old days, started making a database in 2001, and beginning to publicise it in 2008 on internet. And he is still busy making more information available. See http://www.schaakcomputers.nl/hein_veldhuis/
Disadvantage for you is that it is mainly in Dutch.
So far as to his credibility.

On the other hand, the only real fact I presented is the programmer of the Mirage.

For the rest, I am referring to discussions on schachcomputer.info, and wiki pages on the wiki-elo-liste. For instance, on the pages about the GM and the Mirage it is claimed that both are related to Igor. But especially for the GM that could be doubtful, seeing other discussions here and there.

@Fernando: As for "a program by K done for Excalibur in XXI century", the GM was introduced in 1997, so it's XX century. Also, like other manufacturers, Excalibur introduces new machines with weaker (older?) programs. I already read about an Igor II, which was much weaker than the original Igor...

So, if I get the GM in the house, I will be happy to perform all kinds of testing to see what type of program is in there...!

Regards, Paul.
Please, do not take our comments as an attacks or reproach to you. We take all this stuff here just as a matter to get fun...
And yes, GM is a late XX century thing, but that is indifferent to my reasoning. Late XX century or XXI, in both cases it would be difficult to imagine a thing programmed by Kittinger lot weaker than say, Super Forte.
GM, which I have and play, is benefited by fast processors, but its heuristic are clearly cruder than any Kittinger contrivance I have even known. Your source is mistaken on this, no doubt.

Fern
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spacious_mind
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Post by spacious_mind »

Steve B wrote:
spacious_mind wrote:

You know the funny thing is that if Spracklen were suggested I would have been maybe less surprised.
give it some time
sooner or later I am sure someone will suggest them as the programmers as well
:P

Chaos Regards
Steve
I know, but really, that possibility is still maybe there as a long shot. If Nelson did actually have the opportunity to slip a different program into Mirage then Spracklen origin could still be a candidate! :P After all we all know that Nelson had a real talent for squeezing out as much as possible variety out of programs available to him.

Keeping the chaos going regards!
Nick
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Post by Steve B »

spacious_mind wrote:
I know, but really, that possibility is still maybe there as a long shot. If Nelson did actually have the opportunity to slip a different program into Mirage then Spracklen origin could still be a candidate! :P After all we all know that Nelson had a real talent for squeezing out as much as possible variety out of programs available to him.

Keeping the chaos going regards!

there is a known connection between Excalibur and Kittinger.. the Excalibur Karpov 2294 which is a known clone of the Novag Emerald plus
so perhaps we shall learn something new today

anyway..i notice a delay in Heins sending in his Mirage-Kittinger "Encounter"
Hmmm

Close Encounters Of The Third Kind Regards
Steve
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Post by Mike Watters »

paulwise3 wrote:Hi Steve,
Here a translation of his answer to my question about the GM:
"Actually I didn't have time for your question, but still spend an hour searching.
The name of the programmer of the Excalibur Grandmaster has never been publicised by the company Excalibur.
However, while searching, to my surprise I encountered the programmer name of the Excalibur Mirage: Dave Kittinger!

With some test work you might get an idea of the programmer of the Excalibur Grandmaster?
Ron Nelson, Dave Kittinger or still Gyula Horvath ??
"

When I see him in april, I will ask him for more info.

GM regards,
Paul
In my experience that's a typical Hein answer Paul.
As his information comes from published sources of the time I would be more inclined to believe them than any of the speculation we have all been indulging in on here. What we need is Hein's source, but he may want to make sure by going through all the material he has.

Patience is a virtue regards
Mike
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Post by Fernando »

Steve B wrote:
spacious_mind wrote:
I know, but really, that possibility is still maybe there as a long shot. If Nelson did actually have the opportunity to slip a different program into Mirage then Spracklen origin could still be a candidate! :P After all we all know that Nelson had a real talent for squeezing out as much as possible variety out of programs available to him.

Keeping the chaos going regards!

there is a known connection between Excalibur and Kittinger.. the Excalibur Karpov 2294 which is a known clone of the Novag Emerald plus
so perhaps we shall learn something new today

anyway..i notice a delay in Heins sending in his Mirage-Kittinger "Encounter"
Hmmm

Close Encounters Of The Third Kind Regards
Steve
Excalibur bought some already existent machines and its programs and gave them another name, as Karpov 2294, but that is a different phenomena to the machines that were created inside Excalibur. For this last kind, Kittinger appears as almost impossible considering the strengths and style of these Excalibur-born machines
Fern.
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spacious_mind
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Post by spacious_mind »

Generally I would agree Mike as Hein is accurate when it comes to his records. But Kittinger in this case has to be a mistake. Unless the statement covers Horvath and all along Horvath never existed, but even that would not explain the different eval methods.

Novag of course did give Karpov to Excalibur in for sale in 1997. However there is no resemblance between these computers. It's like night and day, and more likely Mirage was available as a finished produce in 1996 before Karpov.

Best regards

ps... with Spracklen I am just fooling around.
Nick
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Post by Mike Watters »

Steve B wrote: this should be interesting
Nick already showed a "source" about the Mirage appearing at some computer show in Europe back in the early 90's
I think the programmer being credited for the Mirage in that post was a programmer working for the defunct CXG(Owned by Nelson and Samole at this time) who was now involved in Krypton computers
Steve
Steve

This is the second time I noticed you mention Nelson and Samole as the owners of CXG at one time. Which is a surprise because although it's logical that they were investors in CXG I cannot remember seeing any reference to them being the owners. I haven't noticed this in any published source. Neither David Levy nor Chad Cohen mentioned it and this list from Hein Veldhuis's website doesn't mention them either -

History Eric White
1979-1980 Cassia Eric White (Chess Mate)
1981-1984 White & Allcock Ltd. Eric White & Ken Cohen MultiTech
1984-1991 Newcrest Technology (CXG Systems S.A.) Eric White & Ken Cohen Sphinx (1987)
1991-1993 National Telecommunications System Ltd. Eric White Sphinx
1994 Krypton Ltd. David Levy Krypton
1995-1996 Timorite Ltd. David Levy & Eric White Krypton
1997-2001 Timorite Ltd. / Systema Leisure Ltd. David Levy & Eric White Krypton / Systema
2002- ???? ?? ?? ??

can you throw any light on this. Source?

All the best
Mike
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Post by Steve B »

Mike Watters wrote:
This is the second time I noticed you mention Nelson and Samole as the owners of CXG at one time. Which is a surprise because although it's logical that they were investors in CXG I cannot remember seeing any reference to them being the owners.
can you throw any light on this. Source?
that's just me
I use the terms investors and owners interchangeably
from the experience in my line of work..when you invest in a company you are usually also a part owner
Nelson told me he and Samole invested in the company and the amount
no clue if he or Samole were listed as legal owners or if they formed another entity to make the investment

Shining Light Regards
Steve
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Post by spacious_mind »

Steve B wrote:
Mike Watters wrote:
This is the second time I noticed you mention Nelson and Samole as the owners of CXG at one time. Which is a surprise because although it's logical that they were investors in CXG I cannot remember seeing any reference to them being the owners.
can you throw any light on this. Source?
that's just me
I use the terms investors and owners interchangeably
from the experience in my line of work..when you invest in a company you are usually also a part owner
Nelson told me he and Samole invested in the company and the amount
no clue if he or Samole were listed as legal owners

Mystery Solved Regards
Steve
The possibility that they invested or gave money to Krypton (perhaps to keep them afloat) fits in how I would see it as well. Prepaid for orders even or large down payments for orders. As far as I know it was not a Corporation but a Limited Liability Company. Meaning money may have been borrowed for a smaller share or for assets or for orders to be produced, in this case from Nelson and Samole. To me that fits perfectly in to how I have intererpreted the situation at that time. At liquidation Nelson and Samole probably took in return assets, ie computers (designers etc) and used this to evolve from distributor to "manufacturer" albeit it was all actually produced in China.
Nick
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Post by paulwise3 »

there is a known connection between Excalibur and Kittinger.. the Excalibur Karpov 2294 which is a known clone of the Novag Emerald plus
so perhaps we shall learn something new today

anyway..i notice a delay in Heins sending in his Mirage-Kittinger "Encounter"
Hmmm

Close Encounters Of The Third Kind Regards
Steve
Well, that was a good day to chat about our oldies again ;-)
A few hours ago Hein sent a mail, stating he was not able to locate his source between the thousands of pages he went through, and that he may be mistaken, so he retracts his statement. My apologies to you all!
But at the same time he sent a quote from the Rochade chess magazine, in which is stated that Mirage, Grandmaster, Ivan und Igor all share the same program. But reading it, I notice that it talks about the Karpov Grandmaster, which (if I am right) is the same as the Excalibur Karpov 2294 that Steve mentions. So that gives rise to some confusion...

Here is the full quote Hein sent me:
Mirage, Karpov Grandmaster, Ivan und Igor weisen alle eine Spielstärke von 2100 USCF-Punkten auf, von denen man etwa 150 bis 200 Punkte abziehen muß, um auf DWZ oder SSDF-Punkte zu kommen. Alle vier Geräte sind mit einem H8-Prozessor ausgestattet, der mit 24 MHz läuft, im Mirage allerdings nur mit 20 MHz. Der Programmumfang liegt bei 32 kByte, wozu beim Igor für Sprache noch einmal 96 kByte hinzukommen, beim Ivan sind es aufgrund der wesentlich umfangreicheren Geräusch- und Sprachdateien noch weitere 1.016 MByte. Das Eröffnungsrepertoire wird mit 3000 Halbzügen angegeben und alle Geräte imstande, Sechzüger zu lösen. Damit man sich ein besseres Bild von beiden sprechenden Computern Igor und Ivan machen kann, sind Abbildungen beigefügt. Wer es nicht glaubt, daß der Karpov World Chess Champion 2294 mit dem Emerald Classic Plus von Novag identisch ist, kann sich anhand der Abbildung dieses Gerätes davon überzeugen. [Rochade 05-1998, H.-P. Ketterling]
Waiting for my Grandmaster regards,
Paul
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Post by Steve B »

paulwise3 wrote:

A few hours ago Hein sent a mail, stating he was not able to locate his source between the thousands of pages he went through, and that he may be mistaken, so he retracts his statement. My apologies to you all!

Enjoy your GM

Next Batter Up Regards
Steve
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Post by SirDave »

paulwise3 wrote: But reading it, I notice that it talks about the Karpov Grandmaster, which (if I am right) is the same as the Excalibur Karpov 2294 that Steve mentions. So that gives rise to some confusion...

Waiting for my Grandmaster regards,
Paul
Both names, Karpov Grandmaster and Karpov 2294, are on the box. That's not the only time Excalibur did that. It's a little crazy & confusing especially since there is an Excalibur Grandmaster.

I have liked my Karpov 2294 (Novag Emerald Plus) so much that I recently sold my brand-new Obsidian (the model that followed) because the 2294 is very similar to the Obsidian, but also has a better openings-diversity.

Congratulations on being about to receive the GM. It's one of my favorite boards and I have an almost-new backup as well.
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Post by paulwise3 »

When looking for posts on the Igor 2 (711E-2), I stumbled over this old thread.
After Ron Nelson's visit to this forum we know now he is the one :-)
2024 Special thread: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=12741
2024 Special results and standings: https://schaakcomputers.nl/paul_w/Tourn ... 25_06.html
If I am mistaken, it must be caused by a horizon effect...
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