Dedicated computers vs PC, PICOCHESS, GAVON

This forum is for general discussions and questions, including Collectors Corner and anything to do with Computer chess.

Moderators: Harvey Williamson, Steve B, Watchman

Forum rules
This textbox is used to restore diagrams posted with the fen tag before the upgrade.
User avatar
chesspcmac
Member
Posts: 250
Joined: Sun Feb 05, 2012 2:58 am
Location: Richmond, Virginia

Dedicated computers vs PC, PICOCHESS, GAVON

Post by chesspcmac »

I've just bought a PICOCHESS and also bought again a bluetooh DGT board (dollar is very strong now, so buy them from holland). It has been very frustrating for the last couple of days. Version 0.31 works with revelation ii but not with bluetooth DGT board, Version 0.33 doesnt work with either one or if it does is on/off, unpredictable. Just ordered new dgt clock because the dgt Xl doesnt work with this or that. First of all I want to say that Picochess is A GREAT idea and I applaud and THANK the people working hard at it. People at PICOCHESS google forum, IZMET FEKALI is an angel, love his videos, ideas, products and the love for the game, DJ Dekker a super dedicated soul that works for free just for the love of computers and chess, a great teacher explaining and troubleshooting problems, same for Jromang and many others that have this pasion for chess like I do. But PICOCHESS is so frustrating. Turn dgt board on, turn clock on then boot picochess....YES it works...... Next morning it doesnt!! Please no more new improvements until all problems and bugs are solved. i just hope to plug the picochess on my board and play. That's why I love the dedicated chess computers plug them in and thats it. Very reliable those little old machines. DGT chess boards are also to be blamed. It is a pain in the ass to make them work. I think DGT is more interested in his Tournament business than fixing the bugs on their bluetooth boards.Anyways just venting

Frustrated regards.
User avatar
Steve B
Site Admin
Posts: 10140
Joined: Sun Jul 29, 2007 10:02 am
Location: New York City USofA
Contact:

Re: Dedicated computers vs PC, PICOCHESS, GAVON

Post by Steve B »

chesspcmac wrote: That's why I love the dedicated chess computers plug them in and thats it. Very reliable those little old machines.
Well Said
Applauding Regards
Steve
User avatar
spacious_mind
Senior Member
Posts: 3999
Joined: Wed Aug 01, 2007 10:20 pm
Location: Alabama
Contact:

Post by spacious_mind »

I have never tried using my Gavon with a DGT board. I have an older DGT non USB board.

Besides, I like Gavon just fine without the board. If feels just like playing the old Mephisto I, II & III & Junior or Novag VIP, Super VIP, Ruby or Sapphire I and II. When I play these myself although I have a couple Novag Universal Boards, I normally however just play them with me playing on a regular chess board. Therefore to me Gavon just plays like any of the above, with the added value of being able to play 37 different opponents from just as many NEW PROGRAMMERS! Totally hassle free.

I applaud these attempts much more than anything that anyone else is doing for several reasons:

1) The people working on these projects are doing it as a hobby and not for profit.
2) It's affordable for any budget.
3) And this is a huge number 1 reason. Although I love dedicated computers and love to collect them, there are at most only about 10 programmers who developed good programs for dedicated chess computers, which at the end of the day if we were to remove our bias and collectors hats means that we are playing 10 styles over and over again albeit improved by the programmers through their different versions but still following the same imprint. That's partly the reason why I also enjoy DOS programs, Pocket PC's & Palms and also the old home computer to provide that extra chess variety at a level that I can play against. Gavon overnight has added at least 20 new programs in one fell swoop that I can play against and play my dedicated computers against. That to me is brilliant and makes total sense. To keep speeding up a Lang or Shroeder or a Kittinger is just not as interesting after you have already seen this happen over and over and over and over and over and over and over again and again and again and again and again, already. Besides if I wanted to play a faster Kittinger, Schroeder, Lang, Spracklen or Morsch, then all I have to do is boot up one of my DOS computers and play them over a TASC board or DGT for that matter.

Therefore from me a big cheers to the creators of Gavon etc.

Best regards
Nick
JeffB
Member
Posts: 420
Joined: Sat Mar 07, 2015 6:36 pm
Location: Seattle, WA USA

Post by JeffB »

Besides, I like Gavon just fine without the board. If feels just like playing the old Mephisto I, II & III & Junior or Novag VIP, Super VIP, Ruby or Sapphire I and II. When I play these myself although I have a couple Novag Universal Boards, I normally however just play them with me playing on a regular chess board. Therefore to me Gavon just plays like any of the above, with the added value of being able to play 37 different opponents from just as many NEW PROGRAMMERS! Totally hassle free.
One of the things I love about the Mephisto I/II/III and the Novag calculator-style computers is that I can use nearly any chess set I want, from a pocket magnetic set to a full 4.4" King Capablanca commemorative set and anything in between. Sometimes I play them without a board to see how many moves I can go before I get lost. (I'm up to about a dozen.)

I've been debating about trying the GAVON. Maybe when I rejoin the ranks of the employed...

(I'm also in the early stages of writing my own chess engine, and it could be fun to test it on the GAVON.)

Cheers,

Jeff
ifekali
Member
Posts: 98
Joined: Thu Dec 05, 2013 11:19 am

Re: Dedicated computers vs PC, PICOCHESS, GAVON

Post by ifekali »

chesspcmac wrote:works with revelation ii but not with bluetooth DGT board,
Herein lies a big chunk of Picochess problems and bugs. One never switches hardware on the dedicated units, the are what they are and they stay sthe same.

On the other hand, Picochess is running on original Raspberry Pi, model B and model II revisions, on a mac, on any Windows machine, on Rikomagic sticks and Odroid computers. It will connect to all DGT eboards, USB, Bluetooth AND the Revelation II. It will show moves on DGT XL, DGT 3000 and on the virtual (software emulated) clock on the Rev II. On top of that, it wil work with a wide variety of bluetooth dongles and it will connect wirelesly to the internet.

Does anybody know of any dedicated chess computer working over the air? That can swap chessboards on a whim? That can display and evaluate moves in your browser? That can let your chess teacher observe your game live from a different country or continent? Export the PGN transcript to your comp wirelessly?

This. Is. A. Different. Ballpark.

This hardware variety is bound to introduce some problems. Nevertheless once fixed on a particular hardware setup, it will usually run smoothly.

In your particular case of use (switching between Bluetooth board and Rev II) there is a glitch, not yet addressed by the developers for a simple reason: So far, we only know of TWO users using both Bluetooth board AND the Revelation II. These two users are you and me. Solving this problem was not a priority so far.

Here's a (temporary) solution for your particular problem: After pairing with a bluetooth board for the first time, Picochess will thereafter *only* pair with that board. If it is paired with Rev II, it will again only work reliably with the Rev II and refuse to pair with DGT blueboard. If one wants to switch, the file /etc/bluetooth/rfcomm.conf needs to be deleted and machine rebooted. (If you are not a computer expert, I will gladly expain to you how to do this.) This will reset the bluetooth connection and Picochess will pair freshly.

To avoid this problem I pair with Rev II over the bluetooth and connect to the Bluetooth board via USB cable, this works well and no fiddling is required when switching from one to another. As I was for so far time pretty much the only user with this particular problem, I never bothered the developers with this bug. They work for free and there are other more pressing issues to be solved. Nevertheless, I will open the issue on GitHub for this bug over the weekend.

Let me just say that your comparison of Picochess to old dedicated machines is probably, well, not fair, to say at least. :) We are talking € 35 Raspberry hardware here and FREE opensource software currently in pretty much BETA state of development. Current version is 0.36 and it's a long way to 1.00.

I hope this puts things in perspective and refreshes some enjoyment of Picochess that you unfortunately lost along the way. :)

-Izmet
ifekali
Member
Posts: 98
Joined: Thu Dec 05, 2013 11:19 am

Post by ifekali »

But yes, I do get your point. Nothing beats plug & play. It is a far away goal for Picochess. There were talks last year with DGT (featuring Shivkumar Shivaji, Jean, Francois Romang, Ben Bulsink and myself) to invest additional programming resources into the project, but since recent change in DGT management (legendary Ben Bulsink retiring) the effort and talks vanished.

-Izmet
User avatar
Steve B
Site Admin
Posts: 10140
Joined: Sun Jul 29, 2007 10:02 am
Location: New York City USofA
Contact:

Post by Steve B »

There is really no need to compare one form of chess technology over the other
we have a wide tent here in the Hiarcs forum and welcome any chess technology

devotees of the old dedicated computers will list the reasons they collect and play them
devotees of the newer technologies will do the same
everyone has a personal preference

I have no interest in Gavon,(or any other name spelled backwards)Mysticums,Pico's ,Rasberry's ,Strawberry's ,PC chess cards or even PC engines
I dunno know..i guess its just me but when I see The Pico Rasberry PI on Ebay I see an unsightly rats nest of loose wires and cables
when I see the Mysticum I see computer components stuffed into "make shift" housings such as "American Tourister"travel luggage handbags or even cardboard boxes
the truth is ..I am glad these other technologies exist and I hope they become very popular ..for the following reason...

these new space age gizmos will attract new folks into the computer chess playing world
of these.. a small percentage will stumble their way into the Hiarcs forum.. and of those ..a small percentage will become interested in the fascinating world of the old dedicated computers..increasing the numbers of the rank and file

We Take What We Can Get Regards
Steve
JeffB
Member
Posts: 420
Joined: Sat Mar 07, 2015 6:36 pm
Location: Seattle, WA USA

Post by JeffB »

One never switches hardware on the dedicated units, the are what they are and they stay sthe same.
One notable exception being the Novag Super System, which allows you to swap out the computer, the board, or other components (TV, computer, etc).
when I see The Pico Rasberry PI on Ebay I see an unsightly rats nest of loose wires and cables
Super System anyone? :wink:


Cheers,

Jeff
User avatar
chesspcmac
Member
Posts: 250
Joined: Sun Feb 05, 2012 2:58 am
Location: Richmond, Virginia

Post by chesspcmac »

Izmet, thanks for the offer and axplanations. I'll let you know if I have any troubles tonight when I get my brand new DGT 3000. When I find the time I'd like to put all the PICOchess information together to help other people like me. I just feel a little funny "taking" from the chess community without any type of contribution.
PICOCHees shouldnt be so complicated, For now, there's for the MOST part two options DGT bluetooth and USB and TWO clocks DGT XL and DGT 3000. Revelation IIs can wait, Very few people have Revelations and besides that beautiful machine has MANY engines. I think it would help to have multiple micro SD cards with different versions of PICOCHESS for different configurations. I think It would help to know for example: that picochess 0.14 works with USB/DGT XL , and that PICOCHESS 0.22 works with bluetooth dgt board and dgt 3000 but not with a dgt xl and so on. For example I was able to play one game with my picochess 0.33 and USB DGT but the ANALYZE function didnt work, Another suggestion if we are going to give a voice to the pICOCHESS i suggest STEPHEN HAWKINS' voice if possible. Eventually maybe some day a robot arm can be connected to the dgt and pico ches, that would be the closest thing possible to play a NORMAL game of chess. Imagine you moving only your pieces , and the computer (or your friend in USA - Slovenia) moving his pieces on YOUR board.
Pico is a great idea and hopefully all the bugs can be fixed.

Dreams are fre Regards


Mike
red_potatoes
Member
Posts: 34
Joined: Sun Sep 11, 2011 4:02 am
Location: Upstate NY

Post by red_potatoes »

As someone who has been playing with picochess for a few years, I can certainly relate to the frustration with "sometimes it works, sometimes it does not".

I eventually came to peace with this by keeping SD / microSD cards of versions that work well for me, and never updating them. When I want to "play", I use these cards. When I want to test new versions and provide feedback to the guys who write the code - I use different cards, and don't get upset when I find bugs.

At present, I find version 0.31 on a Pi2 with a bluetooth board and DGT3000 clock works really well. Version 0.33, on the other hand, hasn't worked for me at all.

I also own a Mephisto Exclusive and a few modules. And truly appreciate how the old Mephisto modular system "just works".

Even so, pico is my favorite. I love playing on a tournament sized board against an opponent that I can so readily customize. The current stockfish engine is an important part of the appeal for me; it does really well at simulating weaker opponents. Having opening books that are so much larger than on dedicated machines also adds to the fun, and variety

As to the wires that Steve refers to - that all goes away with the bluetooth board. I have my itsy bitsy raspberry pi2 sitting on a shelf out of sight, and the only things on my table are a DGT board, chess pieces, and chess clock. Absolutely nothing else. I'd attach a photo if I knew how :)
User avatar
Steve B
Site Admin
Posts: 10140
Joined: Sun Jul 29, 2007 10:02 am
Location: New York City USofA
Contact:

Post by Steve B »

red_potatoes wrote:
As to the wires that Steve refers to - that all goes away with the bluetooth board.
Perhaps but then we are no longer talking about a "$35" marvel transforming the computer chess world
DGT bluetooth boards go for about $700-$800 a pop
add to that your XL clock(or regular chess clock) and we are talking about a fairly expensive setup

I'm Just Sayin Regards
Steve
red_potatoes
Member
Posts: 34
Joined: Sun Sep 11, 2011 4:02 am
Location: Upstate NY

Post by red_potatoes »

Steve B wrote: we are talking about a fairly expensive setup
I agree. But still a lot less than a Revelation II. In any case, the recent rise of the dollar vs the euro has made it considerably more affordable on our side of the Atlantic than it was, say, a year ago!
User avatar
Fernando
Admiral of the Fleet
Posts: 3059
Joined: Tue Jul 31, 2007 4:35 pm
Location: Santiago de Chile

Post by Fernando »

Picochess and all that gadgets sounds to me as heretic. A REAL dedicated unit has some appearance of a real object, a definitive size and shape, a color, a temperament....That little bunch of circuits is not more glamorous that a matchbox. The fact you can connect it to a board just simulates its real nature.
But what is more, a real dedicated unit is a limited strong program or even weak. Half the interest of dedicated computer is that they are more or less at the reach in a good day of our brains WITHOUT to dumb them before as you can does with some engines.
Who can really play a program that has been treated as Hall 2000?
Who can play a program that has been converted in a shadow of itself?
Not me.

This Picochess thing leads to the exit door of this site regards
Fern
Festina Lente
ifekali
Member
Posts: 98
Joined: Thu Dec 05, 2013 11:19 am

Post by ifekali »

Picochess can run a variety of engines, the Stockfish engine included is just a default. One can easily install and play a weaker one.

This renders your it's-too-strong objections against Picochess invalid. (I refrained from using "silly.")

With respect,

-Izmet

P. S. There was a time when dedicated units competed in World Championship and the goal was to improve and climb the ELO ratings every year. The most coveted one (from chess players' perspective, collectors are a very different bunch), the Tasc R-40, is also the strongest one.

Suddenly, strength is a bad thing?

So, what's your take on the Revelation II, a dedicated unit you will *never* beat full throttle? I bet you wouldn't touch the thing with a ten foot pole. ;-)
JeffB
Member
Posts: 420
Joined: Sat Mar 07, 2015 6:36 pm
Location: Seattle, WA USA

Post by JeffB »

Oooh! Time to stir the pot and poke the bees-nest!
Picochess and all that gadgets sounds to me as heretic. A REAL dedicated unit has some appearance of a real object, a definitive size and shape, a color, a temperament....That little bunch of circuits is not more glamorous that a matchbox.
So where does that leave...
  • 8) Novag VIP/Super VIP/Ruby/Sapphire/Sapphire II
    8) Mephisto I/II/II/Junior
    :shock: CXG (and other brands) chess card
...among other, similar type machines. They're not much more than a bunch of circuits not more glamorous than a matchbox, all without integrated chess boards, but they're all dedicated chess computers (and some are quite good, while others are almost laughably bad). In the end, all chess computers are just computers running one or more chess programs.

Or are they...?
Cheers,

Jeff B.
Post Reply