Dedicated computers vs PC, PICOCHESS, GAVON

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Steve B
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Post by Steve B »

JeffB wrote:

So where does that leave...
  • 8) Novag VIP/Super VIP/Ruby/Sapphire/Sapphire II
    8) Mephisto I/II/II/Junior
    :shock: CXG (and other brands) chess card
...among other, similar type machines. They're not much more than a bunch of circuits not more glamorous than a matchbox, all without integrated chess boards, but they're all dedicated chess computers

Or are they...?
Actually this is a good point
there were many handheld keyboard input models sold over the years
you needed a chess board to play them(unless you were a blindfold chess master)
in these instances they sold in housings of varying designs
with Pico the unit seems to be some see-through case where you can see the circuit board..and with all of the wires and cables its all a bit off-putting

i remember when Rudd Martin was thinking about selling his first Resurrection modules back in 2005
his first idea was to just sell a naked circuit board that you plugged into the Mephisto board
the idea was not well received and he switched to the idea of selling it in empty Mephisto module casings

perhaps if the Pico creators would redesign the housing a bit and hide the internal guts of the machine it would be welcomed with opened arms into the mainstream world of Dedicated Chess Computers

Cosmetic Regards
Steve
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spacious_mind
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Post by spacious_mind »

Steve B wrote:
JeffB wrote:

So where does that leave...
  • 8) Novag VIP/Super VIP/Ruby/Sapphire/Sapphire II
    8) Mephisto I/II/II/Junior
    :shock: CXG (and other brands) chess card
...among other, similar type machines. They're not much more than a bunch of circuits not more glamorous than a matchbox, all without integrated chess boards, but they're all dedicated chess computers

Or are they...?
Actually this is a good point
there were many handheld keyboard input models sold over the years
you needed a chess board to play them(unless you were a blindfold chess master)
in these instances they sold in housings of varying designs
with Pico the unit seems to be some see-through case where you can see the circuit board..and with all of the wires and cables its all a bit off-putting

i remember when Rudd Martin was thinking about selling his first Resurrection modules back in 2005
his first idea was to just sell a naked circuit board that you plugged into the Mephisto board
the idea was not well received and he switched to the idea of selling it in empty Mephisto module casings

perhaps if the Pico creators would redesign the housing a bit and hide the internal guts of the machine it would be welcomed with opened arms into the mainstream world of Dedicated Chess Computers

Cosmetic Regards
Steve
I can see how Picochess might be off-putting because of its see through design. The Gavon box that I have is a closed rectangular black box with LCD display and 5 control buttons and that is it. Obviously not as pretty in design as a Mephisto 1 but from a dedicated perspective more acceptable.

All the boards that came with the old dedicateds were pretty useless and I seriously doubt if anyone uses the small Novag magnetic boards unless they happen to be travelling. Mephisto did not come with a board at all you had to buy an external board, pay extra for it, so those are quite weak arguments.

It is an amateur project so you really cannot expect a beautiful external board. Besides when similar amateur projects were done in the last few years with fully functional auto-sensory boards some of which were extremely beautiful, these projects were slammed as well, that is unless you charge $$$$ and then everything fine again.
Nick
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Post by Steve B »

spacious_mind wrote:
Mephisto did not come with a board at all you had to buy an external board, pay extra for it, so those are quite weak arguments.

It is an amateur project so you really cannot expect a beautiful external board.
nowhere do i make the argument that a beautiful external board or any external board has to be provided
you are making a straw man argument

when i wrote this...
you needed a chess board to play them(unless you were a blindfold chess master)
in these instances they sold in housings of varying designs


these are two unrelated statements
in the first sentence i said "needed" not provided
in the second sentence i was not referring to an external board..i was referring to the program unit itself
by "housings" i did not mean an external board..i meant the case where the computer components are held

my only point was that the housing of the unit itself could be designed a bit better to hide the electronics

Speed Reading Regards
Steve
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spacious_mind
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Post by spacious_mind »

Steve B wrote:
spacious_mind wrote:
Mephisto did not come with a board at all you had to buy an external board, pay extra for it, so those are quite weak arguments.

It is an amateur project so you really cannot expect a beautiful external board.
nowhere do i make the argument that a beautiful external board or any external board has to be provided
you are making a straw man argument

when i wrote this...
you needed a chess board to play them(unless you were a blindfold chess master)
in these instances they sold in housings of varying designs


these are two unrelated statements
in the first sentence i said "needed" not provided
in the second sentence i was not referring to an external board..i was referring to the program unit itself
by "housings" i did not mean an external board..i meant the case where the computer components are held

my only point was that the housing of the unit itself could be designed a bit better to hide the electronics

Speed Reading Regards
Steve
I agree a goal should be design improvement. Maybe someday their focus will be on making a board rather than compatibility to DGT and other external boards.

Ooops I forgot there is a Gavon board. Maybe I should look into it, but I think it is also external.

Regards
Nick
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Fernando
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Post by Fernando »

ifekali wrote:Picochess can run a variety of engines, the Stockfish engine included is just a default. One can easily install and play a weaker one.

This renders your it's-too-strong objections against Picochess invalid. (I refrained from using "silly.")

With respect,

-Izmet

P. S. There was a time when dedicated units competed in World Championship and the goal was to improve and climb the ELO ratings every year. The most coveted one (from chess players' perspective, collectors are a very different bunch), the Tasc R-40, is also the strongest one.

Suddenly, strength is a bad thing?

So, what's your take on the Revelation II, a dedicated unit you will *never* beat full throttle? I bet you wouldn't touch the thing with a ten foot pole. ;-)
Great thing you refrained to use the word silly because in that case I would say the same of you, as clearly you did not understand neither the tone nor the content of my post.
Festina Lente
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Fernando
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Post by Fernando »

Steve B wrote:
JeffB wrote:

So where does that leave...
  • 8) Novag VIP/Super VIP/Ruby/Sapphire/Sapphire II
    8) Mephisto I/II/II/Junior
    :shock: CXG (and other brands) chess card
...among other, similar type machines. They're not much more than a bunch of circuits not more glamorous than a matchbox, all without integrated chess boards, but they're all dedicated chess computers

Or are they...?


They are.



Actually this is a good point
there were many handheld keyboard input models sold over the years
you needed a chess board to play them(unless you were a blindfold chess master)
in these instances they sold in housings of varying designs
with Pico the unit seems to be some see-through case where you can see the circuit board..and with all of the wires and cables its all a bit off-putting

i remember when Rudd Martin was thinking about selling his first Resurrection modules back in 2005
his first idea was to just sell a naked circuit board that you plugged into the Mephisto board
the idea was not well received and he switched to the idea of selling it in empty Mephisto module casings

perhaps if the Pico creators would redesign the housing a bit and hide the internal guts of the machine it would be welcomed with opened arms into the mainstream world of Dedicated Chess Computers

Cosmetic Regards
Steve
Festina Lente
ifekali
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Post by ifekali »

Fernando wrote: Great thing you refrained to use the word silly because in that case I would say the same of you, as clearly you did not understand neither the tone nor the content of my post.
You got me, I took it at face value. Good one, I feel silly. :)

-Izmet
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Fernando
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Post by Fernando »

ifekali wrote:
Fernando wrote: Great thing you refrained to use the word silly because in that case I would say the same of you, as clearly you did not understand neither the tone nor the content of my post.
You got me, I took it at face value. Good one, I feel silly. :)

-Izmet
Do not worry. Nobody is free to take at its face value something. Besides, this is a site of old men inclined to easy chat. Just imagine an Irish pub, though in this case, unluckily, we cannot share face to face.
Cheers
Fern
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ifekali
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Post by ifekali »

Steve B wrote: my only point was that the housing of the unit itself could be designed a bit better to hide the electronics
I feel obliged to clarify:

There is no hardware design, Picochess is a software product only. Users buy their own hardware (mac, PC, Odroid or Raspberry Pi computer) and install the software on it.

Raspberry Pi computer is simply a cheapest (and smallest) choice, it has no housing per se. User has to build it's own housing or buy one of the cheap plastic cases offered on the net. In my case I opted for (in my opinion and taste) somewhat classier see-thru plexiglass. There is a variety of black, red, etc. non transparent and nicer cases on the market.

However, you will be pleased to know that there is a plan for DGT to build the Raspberry board directly into the DGT 3000 clock housing, thus eliminating much of the cabling, and to bundle Picochess with it. In this case you will see only the clock on the table, no computer in sight. It will be an official DGT product branded DGT Π (as in greek letter "pi").

With the legendary Ben Bulsink retiring the project is a bit behind schedule, we (programmers Jean, Shiv and myself, a tester) had last sitdown with Ben Bulsink in early January discussing the features of the new chessbot and means of DGT involvement in the project (direct programming help from DGT).

-Izmet
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Steve B
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Post by Steve B »

ifekali wrote: However, you will be pleased to know that there is a plan for DGT to build the Raspberry board directly into the DGT 3000 clock housing, thus eliminating much of the cabling, and to bundle Picochess with it. In this case you will see only the clock on the table, no computer in sight. It will be an official DGT product branded DGT Π (as in greek letter "pi").


-Izmet
Thats sounds very interesting
Please Keep us informed as to the progress of the Clock housing

3.1416 Regards
Steve
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Post by spacious_mind »

Steve B wrote: Thats sounds very interesting
Please Keep us informed as to the progress of the Clock housing

3.1416 Regards
Steve
You rounded it up!

Error! Error! Error! Error! Error! regards
Nick
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Post by paulwise3 »

Fernando wrote:Besides, this is a site of old men inclined to easy chat. Just imagine an Irish pub, though in this case, unluckily, we cannot share face to face.
Cheers
Fern
More unluckily, I have no Irish whiskey at hand :-(. But I'll comfort myself with a Hoegaarden Grand Cru :-)

Belgian beer collector regards,
Paul
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Steve B
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Post by Steve B »

Steve B wrote:
ifekali wrote: However, you will be pleased to know that there is a plan for DGT to build the Raspberry board directly into the DGT 3000 clock housing, thus eliminating much of the cabling, and to bundle Picochess with it. In this case you will see only the clock on the table, no computer in sight. It will be an official DGT product branded DGT Π (as in greek letter "pi").


-Izmet
Thats sounds very interesting
Please Keep us informed as to the progress of the Clock housing

3.1416 Regards
Steve
Here is a current Ebay offering for the Gavon Pi
http://www.ebay.de/itm/Gavon-BT-USB-DGT ... cf971592d-

Here is a look at the second photo in the auction:

Image

A rats nest of cables,wires and Connectors
I don't see why I have to have a PHD degree in Nuclear Engineering to play a game of chess
the sooner they come up with a nice self contained unit the better and then I will be..

All In Regards
Steve
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Post by Bryan Whitby »

Brilliant piece of engineering Josu.
Thank you very much!!
Bryan
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Post by JeffB »

A rats nest of cables, wires and Connectors
Sorry, Steve, but I think you're totally off base with this one. Rats nest? Need a PhD to hook it up? Seriously? Let's examine the setup.

There are four cables (and cables are of little value without connectors, so I won't even address that part of the statement):

1) Charger to Battery. This is only needed to charge the battery unit, not to run the Gavon.

2) Speaker. This is optional if you want sound. But the cable is very short as the speaker sits next to the Gavon.

3) Gavon to Board. This is not necessary if you have a Bluetooth board.

4) Battery to Gavon. Well, you need power, right? But you could optionally run from a USB wall charger.

You may also need a power adapter for the board, depending on which board you use, but that's the board's issue, not the Gavon's.

So, at most you need three cables, at the least, ONE. Most desktop PCs have at least three, one each for the mouse, keyboard, and monitor. My Novag Super System has more cables than this! (Even if I eliminate the Distributor, I still need three cables to run a chess computer on the Novag board.) And if you keep the battery and speaker near the Gavon, the cables won't snake across your desk at all.

Want to see a true rats nest? Go into any embedded systems or computer engineering lab, with dozens of cables or more hooking various boards to test equipment. Three cables doesn't even come close to qualifying.

The Gavon appears to be a nicely designed unit. To dismiss it for the "reasons" given just seems ridiculous and unfair to the engineer who put this together.
Cheers,

Jeff B.
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