SciSys Mark V Prototype

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Mike Watters
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SciSys Mark V Prototype

Post by Mike Watters »

Some nostalgia for older members of the forum. Recently I repatriated the Mark V Prototype back to the UK, mainly I have to admit to write a webpage about it. The Mark V is perhaps the most notable chess computer development and programming achievement which came out of Philidor Software and Intelligent Sofware in the late 1970s and early 80s. The Prototype's story gives us some idea about how things were done in those days and what went into developing the Mark V.

http://www.chesscomputeruk.com/html/sci ... otype.html

All the best
Mike
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Sargon1972
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Post by Sargon1972 »

Hello Mike,

That is a nice story u have written there ,very interesting as well
After all these years the computer is finally home where it belongs
Have many fun with it :D

Kr,Hans
Hello
I am from Netherlands and many years involved with computerchess
It,s a way of life i suppose :p

Kr,Hans
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Fernando
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Re: SciSys Mark V Prototype

Post by Fernando »

Mike Watters wrote:Some nostalgia for older members of the forum. Recently I repatriated the Mark V Prototype back to the UK, mainly I have to admit to write a webpage about it. The Mark V is perhaps the most notable chess computer development and programming achievement which came out of Philidor Software and Intelligent Sofware in the late 1970s and early 80s. The Prototype's story gives us some idea about how things were done in those days and what went into developing the Mark V.

http://www.chesscomputeruk.com/html/sci ... otype.html

All the best
Mike
Mike, what a fantastic history! Thanks!!

Fern
Festina Lente
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mclane
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Re: SciSys Mark V Prototype

Post by mclane »

Mike Watters wrote:Some nostalgia for older members of the forum. Recently I repatriated the Mark V Prototype back to the UK, mainly I have to admit to write a webpage about it. The Mark V is perhaps the most notable chess computer development and programming achievement which came out of Philidor Software and Intelligent Sofware in the late 1970s and early 80s. The Prototype's story gives us some idea about how things were done in those days and what went into developing the Mark V.

http://www.chesscomputeruk.com/html/sci ... otype.html

All the best
Mike
The thing about this engine is IMO that levy was not capable to make progress with his engine although using 68000 CPU with 8 MHz and a lot of ram in the Sphinx. There is not much difference between mark V and Sphinx 68000 program. I wonder why the team was not able to make significant progress over the years, in opposite e.g. To Ron Nelson and his program in grandmaster / igor.
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Mike Watters
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Re: SciSys Mark V Prototype

Post by Mike Watters »

mclane wrote:
The thing about this engine is IMO that levy was not capable to make progress with his engine although using 68000 CPU with 8 MHz and a lot of ram in the Sphinx. There is not much difference between mark V and Sphinx 68000 program. I wonder why the team was not able to make significant progress over the years, in opposite e.g. To Ron Nelson and his program in grandmaster / igor.
Hans and Fern glad you enjoyed the story.

I think you are right about the 'Philidor' team, Thorsten. They just ran out of ideas. David Broughton said so in his interview. Mark Taylor was a brilliant programmer, perhaps of optimizing code(?), but not producing strong chess engines. David Levy was doing very many other things and leaving his knowledge of chess engine programming further behind. Richard Lang was not a part of that team but involved with other projects.

It seems to me that all of the first wave of dedicated chess computer programmers ran out of ideas and were overtaken by others sooner or later. Which is one of the many reasons why Ron Nelson's resurrection makes no sense at all.
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Post by spacious_mind »

I know it is kind of ludicrous how the Myth keeps repeating itself with zero to substantiate it. Kind of sad really.

Excellent report by the way Mike.
Nick
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ricard60
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Post by ricard60 »

Great Story Mike Thanks!. Did not know that the prototype was developed under the Z-80. The Mark V for sale had a 6502.
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Bryan Whitby
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Post by Bryan Whitby »

Hi Mike

Great bit of journalism. I didn't know that the MK V1 had been stolen at the Paris tournament plus I had forgotten about all those Intelligent Chess Boards for sale at Kevin O'Connells auction.

Keep up the great work.
Bryan
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mclane
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Re: SciSys Mark V Prototype

Post by mclane »

Mike Watters wrote:
mclane wrote:
The thing about this engine is IMO that levy was not capable to make progress with his engine although using 68000 CPU with 8 MHz and a lot of ram in the Sphinx. There is not much difference between mark V and Sphinx 68000 program. I wonder why the team was not able to make significant progress over the years, in opposite e.g. To Ron Nelson and his program in grandmaster / igor.
Hans and Fern glad you enjoyed the story.

I think you are right about the 'Philidor' team, Thorsten. They just ran out of ideas. David Broughton said so in his interview. Mark Taylor was a brilliant programmer, perhaps of optimizing code(?), but not producing strong chess engines. David Levy was doing very many other things and leaving his knowledge of chess engine programming further behind. Richard Lang was not a part of that team but involved with other projects.

It seems to me that all of the first wave of dedicated chess computer programmers ran out of ideas and were overtaken by others sooner or later. Which is one of the many reasons why Ron Nelson's resurrection makes no sense at all.
From 1981 mark v and philidor VI to 68000 Sphinx is a long time in years.
It's a bit disappointing how small the progress is.

With Nelson it is opposite. His z80 engine plays not bad. I guess transferring this small engine from z80 into h8 must be a big jump concerning speed.
So far we did not identify any other programmer for grandmaster and igor.
I know no other chess programmer. Horvath plays different from style. Kittinger and morsch also do not fit. Danielsen is not strong enough.
We have no other programmer.
What seems like a fairy tale today may be reality tomorrow.
Here we have a fairy tale of the day after tomorrow....
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Steve B
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Re: SciSys Mark V Prototype

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mclane wrote: With Nelson it is opposite. His z80 engine plays not bad. I guess transferring this small engine from z80 into h8 must be a big jump concerning speed.
So far we did not identify any other programmer for grandmaster and igor.
I know no other chess programmer. Horvath plays different from style. Kittinger and morsch also do not fit. Danielsen is not strong enough.
We have no other programmer.
I have also posted here ..that as late as Nov .1988 Nelson was credited along with the Spracklens as an engine author for an experimental Fidelity program running on the Motorola 68030 processor

so he had experience with processors beyond the Z80
and of course I have mentioned many times already his involvement with CXG as well as Excalibur well into the new Millennium..even fixing bugs in Excalibur portable computers

the notion that Nelson was dormant in computer chess since the early 80's , ran out of ideas and then suddenly is resurrected like a Phoenix from the ashes ..appearing as the author for the GM is a straw man argument and nothing less then

Ludicrous Regards
Steve
Last edited by Steve B on Thu May 14, 2015 11:49 am, edited 1 time in total.
Mike Watters
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Re: SciSys Mark V Prototype

Post by Mike Watters »

mclane wrote:
From 1981 mark v and philidor VI to 68000 Sphinx is a long time in years.
It's a bit disappointing how small the progress is.
True. The project lasted from 1980 to 1988. They published their ideas and conclusions in 1989 to get them 'on the record'. In that article (see my link 7) their feelings are expressed like this "In general the results were rather encouraging, and we now feel that there is no longer a need to be shy about our work"

They did end up with a good tournament performance in Rome in 1987 - http://www.grappa.univ-lille3.fr/icga/t ... .php?id=61

However looking at the dedicated chess computers you would have to say progress was disappointing after the original success - Mark V - 1404 elo to CXG Sphinx 68000 - 1703 elo on the Wiki Active List.

All the best
Mike
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Post by mclane »

4.5 from 6 is Not Bad.
But I doubt Sphinx 40 /50 can do any good. It runs on the 68000 with only 8 MHz instead of 68020 24 MHz.
And it is the question if sphinx 40/50 is similar to the software version of Cyrus 68000.
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Here we have a fairy tale of the day after tomorrow....
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Re: SciSys Mark V Prototype

Post by Mike Watters »

Steve B wrote:
I have also posted here ..that as late as Nov .1988 Nelson was credited along with the Spracklens as an engine author for an experimental Fidelity program running on the Motorola 68030 processor

so he had experience with processors beyond the Z80
and of course I have mentioned many times already his involvement with CXG as well as Excalibur well into the new Millennium..even fixing bugs in Excalibur portable computers

the notion that Nelson was dormant in computer chess since the early 80's , ran out of ideas and then suddenly is resurrected like a Phoenix from the ashes ..appearing as the author for the GM is a straw man argument and nothing less then

Ludicrous Regards
Steve
Hi Steve

You will also find Ron Nelson's name alongside the Spracklens in the published report of the World Computer Chess Championships at Edmonton 1989. However the ICGA website has the Spracklens as the programmers of Fidelity X and does not mention Ron Nelson as a programmer at all, in relation to any tournament, at any time, anywhere.

In the same way that Ron Nelson got a mention Kevin O'Connell would often get included in the list of programmers for Philidor and Cyrus 68K. This did not mean he co-wrote the chess engine, or even a single line of code. He was part of the team - operating, testing, contributing ideas and chess knowledge.

Anyway I have a theory that Ron Nelson must have spent the 1980s moonlighting; programming chess computers in East Germany, Russia, Bulgaria and Brazil. I have five of those so far and none (on present evidence) that he programmed for Excalibur. Now he seems to be spending the 2010s hijacking threads.

Stranger than ludicrous regards
Mike
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Re: SciSys Mark V Prototype

Post by Steve B »

Mike Watters wrote:
In the same way that Ron Nelson got a mention Kevin O'Connell would often get included in the list of programmers for Philidor and Cyrus 68K. This did not mean he co-wrote the chess engine, or even a single line of code. He was part of the team - operating, testing, contributing ideas and chess knowledge.
The article I quoted names him specifically and one of the programmer authors

i'll quote it again for the record..

"CHESS CHALLENGER X,written by Dan and Kathe Spracklen and Ron
Nelson,is an experimental version of Fidelity International Inc.‘s CHESS
CHALLENGER series of products"


you want to infer from that that he had nothing to do with the actual programming that's your choice ..a poor one.. but your choice none the less..I only know what I read in the article and it makes sense to me

Mike Watters wrote:
Now he seems to be spending the 2010s hijacking threads.
actually I really didn't want your thread to be hijacked by yet another Nelson debate.. but you choose to respond to Thor's comment regarding Nelson and so did Nick..which in turn Thor replied to..and so on.. making it fair game for anyone else to comment about Nelson in this thread...if I could split the thread and set up a new thread with the Nelson comments I would but the forum software does not offer that as one of the moderating options

Sometimes Silence Is Golden Regards
Steve
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Re: SciSys Mark V Prototype

Post by spacious_mind »

Steve B wrote:
actually I really didn't want your thread to be hijacked by yet another Nelson debate.. but you choose to respond to Thor's comment regarding Nelson and so did Nick..which in turn Thor replied to..and so on.. making it fair game for anyone else to comment about Nelson in this thread...if I could split the thread and set up a new thread with the Nelson comments I would but the forum software does not offer that as one of the moderating options

Sometimes Silence Is Golden Regards
Steve
You are right Steve I bit and I should have known better.
Nick
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