Even More about Nelson..

[Fernando]

Just thinking a bit I realized the following thing:
Even if Nelson did not improve ONE line of the code of, say, chess Challenger 7, that same program running not in a slow Zilog with almost no memory, but in a current processor, should give a lot stronger performance, Excalibur level class....
If he just add one or two of the new algorithms that did not exist in 1979, you have another boost.

So..

It's very possible Nelson was behind every one of those Excalibur middle class computers, Alexandra, Ivan kind....

Rehabilitation regards
Fern

[mclane]

Exactly. The program was in his desk when fidelity went bankrupt. He had the right to use and continue it. Of course z80 was not state of the art anymore, h8 was the CPU being used. Why should Excalibur pay money for foreign software when Nelson had his own software in his desktop ?!
They made it use permanent brain, changed levels and enhanced the speech/ sound feature for the igor. For more serious usage the grandmaster with magnetic reed contacts.

[scandien]

a small contribution to the topic...

the Excalibur GrandMaster is an old fashion program as shown by the test i have run here :

http://echiquier-orseen.voila.net/Tests ... t_en.xhtml

It has great weakness in Strategy, Attack ( skill to plan long term attack) , Endgame. And his main strength are those of the oldest chess machines ( Threats detection, Defense and Counter Attacks).
It's relatively good skill in Calculation and Tactics can be due to a good processor speed and a little update in the program.

The profile of this machine is the same as the Spracklen program ( Sargon V running in DOSBOX ) but the only difference is a main one : the Sargon is really better in Endgame ( and i think nobody may have interest to remove endgame knowledge).

Whatever the base of this program, i am sure that it is a very old one

best regards

Nicolas

[spacious_mind]

We keep going round in circles. You do all know, we have been through that, that Grandmaster is exactly the same program as Mirage. Mirage was sold to Excalibur by Eric White and David Levy.

Getting dizzy regards

[Steve B]

We keep going round in circles. You do all know, we have been through that, that Grandmaster is exactly the same program as Mirage. Mirage was sold to Excalibur by Eric White and David Levy.

Getting dizzy regards

and Eric White worked for CXG at the same time Nelson and Samole made heavy investments in the company and most probably owned it in part
probably White got the program from Nelson
White and Levy suddenly produce a robot using the same robot technology that Fidelity Used in their Phantom Robots
cmon..its obvious that Nelson's hands are all over this

Billy Preston Sends His Regards
Steve

[spacious_mind]

We keep going round in circles. You do all know, we have been through that, that Grandmaster is exactly the same program as Mirage. Mirage was sold to Excalibur by Eric White and David Levy.

Getting dizzy regards

and Eric White worked for CXG at the same time Nelson and Samole made heavy investments in the company and most probably owned it in part
probably White got the program from Nelson
White and Levy suddenly produce a robot using the same robot technology that Fidelity Used in their Phantom Robots
cmon..its obvious that Nelson's hands are all over this

Billy Preston Sends His Regards
Steve

Mixing CXG with Krypton. None of the Krypton programs were ever reproduced. Hence Excalbiur never had a license to do them. CXG programs yes. Show me another computer from Excalibur range where a Krypton computer resurfaced, especially the Mirage program. Where is it?

[Steve B]

Mixing CXG with Krypton.

my point is Eric White worked for a company Nelson invested in and probably owned
White worked for CXG...yes?
yes...and he probably brought with him the programs from Nelson
as they brought the Mirage Robot Technology with them

Kryptic Regards
Steve

[spacious_mind]

Mixing CXG with Krypton.

my point is Eric White worked for a company Nelson invested in and probably owned
White worked for CXG...yes?
yes...and he probably brought with him the programs from Nelson
as they brought the Mirage Robot Technology with them

Kryptic Regards
Steve

My point is a supposed Ron Nelson written program was never reused. How can that be when I can show about 30 or so other Excalibur Computers where the same program was reused over and over again. Krypton was never reused therefore it's not Nelson. Excalibur had no compulsion about reusing the same program over and over again. Which isn't unique to Excalibur. Novag pretty much did the same thing a lot as well. So where is the Nelson program?

Regards
Nick

[Steve B]

Mixing CXG with Krypton.

my point is Eric White worked for a company Nelson invested in and probably owned
White worked for CXG...yes?
yes...and he probably brought with him the programs from Nelson
as they brought the Mirage Robot Technology with them

Kryptic Regards
Steve

My point is a supposed Ron Nelson written program was never reused. How can that be when I can show about 30 or so other Excalibur Computers where the same program was reused over and over again. Krypton was never reused therefore it's not Nelson. Excalibur had no compulsion about reusing the same program over and over again. Which isn't unique to Excalibur. Novag pretty much did the same thing a lot as well. So where is the Nelson program?

Regards
Nick

what does the fact that the GM program was not used over and over have to do with anything?
this is just more grasping at straws

Pointless Regards
Steve

[spacious_mind]

Mixing CXG with Krypton.

my point is Eric White worked for a company Nelson invested in and probably owned
White worked for CXG...yes?
yes...and he probably brought with him the programs from Nelson
as they brought the Mirage Robot Technology with them

Kryptic Regards
Steve

My point is a supposed Ron Nelson written program was never reused. How can that be when I can show about 30 or so other Excalibur Computers where the same program was reused over and over again. Krypton was never reused therefore it's not Nelson. Excalibur had no compulsion about reusing the same program over and over again. Which isn't unique to Excalibur. Novag pretty much did the same thing a lot as well. So where is the Nelson program?

Regards
Nick

what does the fact that the GM program was not used over and over have to do with anything?
this is just more grasping at straws

Pointless Regards
Steve

Sorry Steve, the burden of proof is not with me. I have so far just been quoting facts.

[Steve B]

Sorry Steve, the burden of proof is not with me. I have so far just been quoting facts.

Facts I have shown lead back to Nelson at every turn
lets see what Bryan has to tell us..
if he can clarify that the V.P.did in fact mean that Nelson was the Engine author for Excalibur then this confirms what Nelson told me personally several years ago ..(I asked him specifically about the GM and Mirage)we will have two independent sources(as told to me and Bryan ) both telling the same exact story several years apart
On Hold Regards
Steve

[Bryan Whitby]

To start I suggest that other forum members should contact Al Lawrence as I have personally corresponded with him twice and don't like to meither him again. Briefly here is what he replied to my question.

Bryan
Do you know if all the chess computers where programmed by Ron Nelson as I suspect the stronger models were not all Nelson's code but possibly included Dan & Kathe Spraklen also.

Al
By the time I worked at Excalibur, it was only Ron Nelson but I suspect you are correct regarding the quality of the programming.

Sorry for the anticipation but that's it, make what you want from it.

Regarding contacting chess computer software & hardware engineers. It's not too hard making contact with them with a little detective work. Dave Kittinger is even on Facebook but I didn't find that out until after I had tracked him down at Mentor Graphics. Kittinger agreed to my request for a interview as I advised him that I would send it to Eric Hallsworth to be included in a future edition of Selective Search. Eric didn't want it, so I decided to publish it on the web. I emailed Kittinger to let him know what had happened and he replied stating that if he had known that the interview was going to be published on the web then he would not have agreed to it.(what the difference is between it being published in a magazine and not on the web, I still don't understand). Anyway, I emailed him back asking if he wanted me to delete the interview and I'm still waiting for his reply.

KK Chan, Novag's long servings senior hardware engineer only ever answered one of my emails and ignored my others. I asked him if Kittinger software was in all of Novag's computers and he answered "Because of the many models, other programs were used". A very brief reply and we will probably never know who the other programmers where.

I contacted Ron Nelson at Excalibur about a question about the Fidelity Sensory 12 and he replied answering my question.

Dan Spracklen replied by letter to a request I made from him.

Finally, I called in on Richard Lang out of the blue one evening whilst being on holiday near where Richard lives in Poole. I had supplied Richard with chess graphics for his hand held computers since the very early days but never met until then. Upon me introducing myself, he asked me in and we spent a very enjoyable couple of hours talking and watching England qualify for the World Cup finals.

So if you want to know something, track them down and ask them but remember. Can you remember what you did at work thirty odd years ago, I certainly don't.

Reminiscing regards
Bryan

[Steve B]

To start I suggest that other forum members should contact Al Lawrence as I have personally corresponded with him twice and don't like to meither him again. Briefly here is what he replied to my question.

Bryan
Do you know if all the chess computers where programmed by Ron Nelson as I suspect the stronger models were not all Nelson's code but possibly included Dan & Kathe Spraklen also.

Al
By the time I worked at Excalibur, it was only Ron Nelson but I suspect you are correct regarding the quality of the programming.

Thanks for your efforts Bryan
i can perfectly understand your reluctance to keep pestering Lawrence with more questions after he provides you with an answer
its sort of like the Medusa's Head
you ask a queston ,you get an answer which will never be good enough for some folks.. only resulting in even more questions ..ad nausem

its clear to me that there is now NO reasonable open question that Nelson was the engine programmer for Excalibur...
Lawrence's reply confirms verbatim what Nelson personally told me
however we have no idea when Lawrence worked there so the issue of whether or not the GM/Mirage was released during his employment there remains open as Lawrence would not have had first hand knowledge if the computers were released before or after his tenure there

Best Regards
Steve

[spacious_mind]

To start I suggest that other forum members should contact Al Lawrence as I have personally corresponded with him twice and don't like to meither him again. Briefly here is what he replied to my question.

Bryan
Do you know if all the chess computers where programmed by Ron Nelson as I suspect the stronger models were not all Nelson's code but possibly included Dan & Kathe Spraklen also.

Al
By the time I worked at Excalibur, it was only Ron Nelson but I suspect you are correct regarding the quality of the programming.

Thanks for your efforts Bryan
i can perfectly understand your reluctance to keep pestering Lawrence with more questions after he provides you with an answer
its sort of like the Medusa's Head
you ask a queston ,you get an answer which will never be good enough for some folks.. only resulting in even more questions ..ad nausem

its clear to me that there is now NO reasonable open question that Nelson was the engine programmer for Excalibur...
Lawrence's reply confirms verbatim what Nelson personally told me
however we have no idea when Lawrence worked there so the issue of whether or not the GM/Mirage was released during his employment there remains open as Lawrence would not have had first hand knowledge if the computers were released before or after his tenure there

Best Regards
Steve

Hi Bryan,

Thanks a lot and I agree with Steve's sentiments. We are back to square one. Only way we will ever solve this is to get some interviews going with the Programmers and Ron Nelson himself. The debate remains unresolved for now.

Correction!! Oooops I should have read Steve's response a little closer. The programs in the last few years at Excalibur were all repeats. Including the Robot which is the same as a lot of other Excalibur's. So the question remains was Ron Nelson as the only programmer responsible for making the only available program work in the new designed computers. The engine itself was never changed in any great way. Hence the computers are pretty much all of equal strength. Does that make Ron Nelson the chess engine programmer? I don't think it does and the response has not answered that at all.

I agree with an unresolved conclusion. I agree with Ron Nelson being the only one left working on chess computers as well. I don't agree with chess engine programmer at all that has not been clearly stated by anyone.

Best regards

[Steve B]

I don't agree with chess engine programmer at all that has not been clearly stated by anyone.

Best regards

very clearly stated..three times now
twice by Bryan and once by me
i consider your refusal to accept the obvious fact that Nelson was the engine programmer for Excalibur as nothing more then unreasonable denial



there are folks who deny the holocaust
they deny that we landed a man on the moon
they deny that terrorists bombed the twin towers on 9/11
they deny that Obama was born in the US
all disregarding the evidence
we call them..,Birthers,Truthers..Deniers
sadly at this point i think thats were your opinion(and others who still cant admit that Nelson was the Excalibur engine programmer) regarding this issue belongs

you can have the last word about this Nick as i consider the discussion unreasonable at this point

Best Regards
Steve