Final, definitive Post about Nelson....

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spacious_mind
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Post by spacious_mind »

klute wrote:
spacious_mind wrote: I have told you repeatedly that I have taken Nelson well beyond your 4x speed difference and it doesn't matter, the speed difference does not make the program any stronger because it has too many dumb moves, horizon effect dumbness, zero endgame knowledge.
Hi Nick

I agree. I did similar tests 30 years ago to the ones you've recently done. In my case, I played a match between an Advanced Voice on the 11 min / move level, and an Excellence on one of the lowest levels (I forget which one, but no more than 30 sec / move) with pondering disabled.

The Advanced Voice didn't come out on top!

I do have a soft spot though for the top-of-the-line Nelson machines just prior to the Spracklen arrival. They're still majestic chess computers.

Regards

Cameron
Yes, don't get me wrong I enjoy playing Nelson's as I do other older computers. When I did my U1400 tournaments a few years ago it was a lot of fun following their strength and weakness. I must have played over 1200 U1400 games. But it was worth it as I can pull these up any time as reference.

My favorite Nelson's are the non sensory voice and cc10 & cc7, even CC3 is amazing. Sensory Voice drives me nuts because I guess I always expect more from it then what it can actually do.

It is more of an expectation problem that I have with it. It also tends to settle for draws by repetition much easier than the others. I think that is what drives me nuts, because most of the time those are positions with a huge superiority that it should have won instead.

Best regards
Nick
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Post by Monsieur Plastique »

mclane wrote:now could a programmer make 211 ELO in 17 years by adding something to the search and evaluation function ? IMO yes.
Your arguments in this respect fall apart because all the preceding and subsequent machines he authored were considerably weaker and consistently so. That is the whole point. Machines such as Alexandra and Phantom Force for example, were created years after the GM and used almost exactly the same hardware, yet they are still around 200 points weaker than GM.

The GM and clones stand out head and shoulders above everything else before and after. Why would a chess programmer make all the wonderful technical strides that you assert, only to throw them completely away at a particular point in time and resume making relatively weak machines again on a consistent basis for another decade? It defies all logic and commonsense. Even if Excalibur put pressure on Nelson to create weaker machines post GM, even Nelson is easily capable of adding elementary (or purposely losing) levels to a good program like GM. And then you'd have a far more marketable device because it would appeal to a far broader market without costing a cent more to produce.
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Post by mclane »

Phantom Force and Einstein Are Not Programmed by Nelson (or whoever you want to call the programmer who did igor/Ivan/gm). This is a different programmer.

These show completely different behavior concerning features and display output.

They have no permanent brain. They show Infos during computation. Search depth and Evals. Horvath shows no search depth. Nelson did not show Evals or search depth during computation. They search relatively deep from the search depth but somehow evaluate very very materialistic. Alone the fact that they show the evaluation from the point of view of the opponent , no matter if computing or not, is a strange behavior.

Neither horvath nor "Nelson" is doing so. And I do not know any other program that is doing so.
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Post by klute »

spacious_mind wrote:
klute wrote: Argh! my tests start past the opening book, but will look for similarities beyond book.
Hi Nick

Not all Spracklen programs will show a knight to A3 / H3 / A6 / H6 tendency in non-book openings or early diversions from book openings, but there was at least a period in time when they were afflicted like this. Of course occasionally positions might really call for placing knights like this, but not all that many!

I've never really been able to work out just why this is the case, because Spracklen programs generally are renowned for being well balanced all-rounders.

One of the worst offenders is the original Excel 68000. Machines like the Elegance will also do it sometimes.

Regards

Cameron
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Post by klute »

spacious_mind wrote: Sensory Voice drives me nuts because I guess I always expect more from it then what it can actually do.
Hi Nick

As you might know there were at least two versions of the Voice Sensory - an initial slightly buggy release that couldn't do things like mate with K+R vs K, and a later definitive version that had bugs like this fixed.

To the best of knowledge, most Voice Sensory units have the fixed program because Fidelity (or perhaps owners of the first examples) picked up on the problem fairly early.

Is it possible you're unlucky enough to own one of the buggy ones? Even if you've got a later and somewhat better model, they can cause frustration.

Regards

Cameron
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Post by spacious_mind »

klute wrote:
spacious_mind wrote: Sensory Voice drives me nuts because I guess I always expect more from it then what it can actually do.
Hi Nick

As you might know there were at least two versions of the Voice Sensory - an initial slightly buggy release that couldn't do things like mate with K+R vs K, and a later definitive version that had bugs like this fixed.

To the best of knowledge, most Voice Sensory units have the fixed program because Fidelity (or perhaps owners of the first examples) picked up on the problem fairly early.

Is it possible you're unlucky enough to own one of the buggy ones? Even if you've got a later and somewhat better model, they can cause frustration.

Regards

Cameron
Hi Cameron.

The one that originally played in my U1400 died on me. But I have another one that I will try on the K+Q vs K test that my first one could not solve after 50 moves. If it solves it then maybe its a later version or maybe both versions cannot solve it.

Thanks
Nick
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Post by Monsieur Plastique »

mclane wrote:Phantom Force and Einstein Are Not Programmed by Nelson (or whoever you want to call the programmer who did igor/Ivan/gm). This is a different programmer.
Yes they were. I cannot tell you how I know but I can tell you with 100% certainty that you are 100% incorrect.
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Post by Fernando »

As I begun this by now long and very interesting thread, I feel myself in capacity to make a kind of resume.....

a) I agree with Mclane who says Nelson could improve a lot his programming skill along the time. Maybe he added, as I said, some Spacklen stuff or just the already known techniques published everywhere.
b) To counter that argument Monsieur plastique says that even after lot of years Nelson produced very weak Excalibur machines.
c) to this argument I could reply that Excalibur and other brands too, as easily can be proved, INTENTIONALLY created weak machine considering the changes of the market. The strong player would not get these machines anyway -in the 90.s- because they had available very strong engines running in PC. The ONLY market left in size was the toy market, where the first interest of the maker is to KEEP the interest of his customers with amiable products.
d) If you read the critics that in Amazon are -or were- spelled by customers about any chess computers, MANY of them were of the kind "I cannot beat the bloody thing, neither my son..."
e) Frustration produces bad critics, bad critics s produces bad sells
f) So it could be -and I am almost sure of it- that Excalibur AND Nelson produced intentionally weak or at least not too much strong engines to cope with that new market, so different to the old one, where amateurs were always looking fro strength.
g) Why, then GM? Because there is also a slice of the market constituted by middle level players that like to play a relatively strong machine, but NOT THAT strong. I am one of those players and that is the reason, probably, why I am stuck with dedicated machines AND why I play lot more those I can beat at least half of the time.
h) Certainly Samole and Nelson knew this, as experimented men of business as they were, lot better than me. You DOES not make computers to win a race, but to get sales.
i) I would like to insist in the marketing aspect because it has not been considered in this already long discussion.

Fern
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Post by Monsieur Plastique »

Fernando wrote:f) So it could be -and I am almost sure of it- that Excalibur AND Nelson produced intentionally weak or at least not too much strong engines to cope with that new market, so different to the old one, where amateurs were always looking fro strength.
g) Why, then GM? Because there is also a slice of the market constituted by middle level players that like to play a relatively strong machine, but NOT THAT strong.
I agree that marketing has to influence the types and strength of machines but I had already carefully considered all of that when coming to my own conclusion that Nelson contributed little to none of the actual GM engine.

The actual hardware is virtually the same amongst all of the machines. Over time there was further miniaturisation, however the actual capability of the hardware varied little. And you could buy expensive premium Excaliburs with this hardware (DTTC) as well as extremely inexpensive $30 devices (various plastic chess devices with the proper tournament levels) - the only difference between top end and bottom end models being clock speed (half in the cheap plastic models). So really, the marketing comes down more to program flexibility rather than actual hardware. And it is not that difficult to make a strong program play weakly whilst still maintaining it's maximum playing strength. At a really simple level you program interrupts to minimise thinking times or you restrict ply searches and extensions. Again I would simply say why would any sane company chuck away such an excellent program as GM, since the easiest way to have a universally appealing product (as opposed to a mass market one only or a niche one) is to simply pack the program in something small and relatively portable (to reflect modern trends) and add some novice levels to it. That way it caters from raw beginners through to club players.

And in any case, if you really want to create a truly decent and entertaining novice level to casual player machine, it is a far better approach to use a fairly mature and relatively sophisticated program and handicap it with thinking time restrictions and very basic hardware. Such an approach produces a far more useful, entertaining, educational and desirable opponent for a novice or casual hobby player than taking an inherently weak and relatively neanderthal program and obtaining the ELO strength by way of brute force on the hardware side. Because by doing that, you still have a program that plays unconvincing chess, even if it is in outright terms significantly stronger than a more sophisticated program deliberately handicapped to play at the casual / novice level that it is aimed at.

Yet time and time again, we see the same Excalibur program with it's extremely dubious positional and strategic play - only to suddenly have this GM that did everything so very well, only to chuck it all away again and go back to 1978 on steroids all over again. It makes no logical sense at all. Not financially, not from a marketing perspective and certainly not from the perspective of maintaining a company image.

The fact of the matter is that the hardware itself was never a financial consideration in the era we are discussing (late 1990s to late 2000s) since as I say, you'd find the same innards in a $300 machine and a $50 machine, the only significant differences being the clock speed, quality of the housing, voice / lack of voice, etc. So it only came down to software. And it is actually easier to make a strong existing program play weak chess than to keep developing a mediocre one version after version (as Nelson did - you can hit certain key combinations on most of his machines to see which version that machine happened to have).

It will never make sense to me that Excalibur instead decided to throw everything learned from GM away especially when they continued - for some years afterwards, to attempt to market strong machines. Long after GM came onto the market, Excalibur were still marketing and advertising machines purported to play at the 2000 ELO level. So they were still apparently serious about strength or otherwise completely deluded. So the more likely explanation is that whatever legal and copyright agreements were in place when GM was created had expired and were only in effect for the GM product. Thereafter, Excalibur had to go back to Nelson's "base" program.

Perhaps if in the post-GM days Excalibur only marketed their programs as mere toys rather than as alleged strong expert machines, I would agree, but all the evidence points to them still attempting to pull out all the stops so to speak (even to the point of having a product named after a World Champion) , though obviously limited technically in their capability to do so. Afterall, I have little doubt that Nelson at his absolute best could produce no more than 1600 genuine ELO from a machine on H8 hardware with 32K ROM.
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Post by mclane »

People or company's do strange things for marketing reason, we remember Novag putting a very weak software in the Novag 2 robot. Instead of putting an interesting program in it like super constellation, they put a very weak one into.

As a result of this....
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Post by Mike Watters »

All in the cause of establishing the facts I have tried to identify all Excalibur (and RadioShack) models (apart from very minor variations), find out which ones have exact or close equivalents (clones) and add the information to my Timeline -

http://www.chesscomputeruk.com/html/timeline.html

So far there are 58 Excalibur models of which 4 originated from CXG, 4 from Novag, 1 from Lexibook, and apparently 11 from Krypton/Systema. In addition 7 seem to have been 'shared', mostly with RadioShack. Which leaves 31 Excaliburs for which I have not yet found convincing equivalents. Some of the later Excalibur models may be generic Chinese products rather than exclusively Excaliburs.

One of the intriguing things about Excalibur is the gap in models released between 1997 and 2000 and the interplay between Krypton/Systema finishing and Excalibur starting up again.

Thanks to Nick, Hein and Maurice Ohayon's websites for much of the info, particularly Nick's.

All the best
Mike
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Post by Fernando »

Monsieur Plastique wrote:
Fernando wrote:f) So it could be -and I am almost sure of it- that Excalibur AND Nelson produced intentionally weak or at least not too much strong engines to cope with that new market, so different to the old one, where amateurs were always looking fro strength.
g) Why, then GM? Because there is also a slice of the market constituted by middle level players that like to play a relatively strong machine, but NOT THAT strong.
I agree that marketing has to influence the types and strength of machines but I had already carefully considered all of that when coming to my own conclusion that Nelson contributed little to none of the actual GM engine.

The actual hardware is virtually the same amongst all of the machines. Over time there was further miniaturisation, however the actual capability of the hardware varied little. And you could buy expensive premium Excaliburs with this hardware (DTTC) as well as extremely inexpensive $30 devices (various plastic chess devices with the proper tournament levels) - the only difference between top end and bottom end models being clock speed (half in the cheap plastic models). So really, the marketing comes down more to program flexibility rather than actual hardware. And it is not that difficult to make a strong program play weakly whilst still maintaining it's maximum playing strength. At a really simple level you program interrupts to minimise thinking times or you restrict ply searches and extensions. Again I would simply say why would any sane company chuck away such an excellent program as GM, since the easiest way to have a universally appealing product (as opposed to a mass market one only or a niche one) is to simply pack the program in something small and relatively portable (to reflect modern trends) and add some novice levels to it. That way it caters from raw beginners through to club players.

And in any case, if you really want to create a truly decent and entertaining novice level to casual player machine, it is a far better approach to use a fairly mature and relatively sophisticated program and handicap it with thinking time restrictions and very basic hardware. Such an approach produces a far more useful, entertaining, educational and desirable opponent for a novice or casual hobby player than taking an inherently weak and relatively neanderthal program and obtaining the ELO strength by way of brute force on the hardware side. Because by doing that, you still have a program that plays unconvincing chess, even if it is in outright terms significantly stronger than a more sophisticated program deliberately handicapped to play at the casual / novice level that it is aimed at.

Yet time and time again, we see the same Excalibur program with it's extremely dubious positional and strategic play - only to suddenly have this GM that did everything so very well, only to chuck it all away again and go back to 1978 on steroids all over again. It makes no logical sense at all. Not financially, not from a marketing perspective and certainly not from the perspective of maintaining a company image.

The fact of the matter is that the hardware itself was never a financial consideration in the era we are discussing (late 1990s to late 2000s) since as I say, you'd find the same innards in a $300 machine and a $50 machine, the only significant differences being the clock speed, quality of the housing, voice / lack of voice, etc. So it only came down to software. And it is actually easier to make a strong existing program play weak chess than to keep developing a mediocre one version after version (as Nelson did - you can hit certain key combinations on most of his machines to see which version that machine happened to have).

It will never make sense to me that Excalibur instead decided to throw everything learned from GM away especially when they continued - for some years afterwards, to attempt to market strong machines. Long after GM came onto the market, Excalibur were still marketing and advertising machines purported to play at the 2000 ELO level. So they were still apparently serious about strength or otherwise completely deluded. So the more likely explanation is that whatever legal and copyright agreements were in place when GM was created had expired and were only in effect for the GM product. Thereafter, Excalibur had to go back to Nelson's "base" program.

Perhaps if in the post-GM days Excalibur only marketed their programs as mere toys rather than as alleged strong expert machines, I would agree, but all the evidence points to them still attempting to pull out all the stops so to speak (even to the point of having a product named after a World Champion) , though obviously limited technically in their capability to do so. Afterall, I have little doubt that Nelson at his absolute best could produce no more than 1600 genuine ELO from a machine on H8 hardware with 32K ROM.

You perhaps forget that toy makers really consider not to bother with anything the customer. The trick of diminishing program strengths with this or that methods is thing you and me knows, but not the common folk that barely knows how to handle the TV tuner.

Fern
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Post by spacious_mind »

Mike Watters wrote:All in the cause of establishing the facts I have tried to identify all Excalibur (and RadioShack) models (apart from very minor variations), find out which ones have exact or close equivalents (clones) and add the information to my Timeline -

http://www.chesscomputeruk.com/html/timeline.html

So far there are 58 Excalibur models of which 4 originated from CXG, 4 from Novag, 1 from Lexibook, and apparently 11 from Krypton/Systema. In addition 7 seem to have been 'shared', mostly with RadioShack. Which leaves 31 Excaliburs for which I have not yet found convincing equivalents. Some of the later Excalibur models may be generic Chinese products rather than exclusively Excaliburs.

One of the intriguing things about Excalibur is the gap in models released between 1997 and 2000 and the interplay between Krypton/Systema finishing and Excalibur starting up again.

Thanks to Nick, Hein and Maurice Ohayon's websites for much of the info, particularly Nick's.

All the best
Mike
Hi Mike,

Thanks for putting all that together. We differ in a few places, ie

Stiletto (missing) = 1993
Stiletto Deluxe II (missing=1994),
Stiletto Deluxe = 1993 (you show it as 1994 (that's the date for Stiletto II Stiletto II Deluxe))

Also I believe Mirage came out for Christmas 1996?

Correct there is a gap, that is the period where Excalibur had find other sources to make computers.

That could also be the period for Steve's investment loss story. ie. lots of orders from America but nothing to delivers. Down payments lost in liquidation. Who knows.

It's easy to mix up CXG & Krypton. (Not Steve but Ron Nelson talking. It would be easy for him to mix up one with the other since owner for both was the same)

Best regards
Nick
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Post by spacious_mind »

I am just looking at what I think the 1996 Excalibur Product Brochure is. It has the following:

1- Mirage
2- Ivan the Terrible
3- Legend III
4- King Master 2 - in 1
5- Explorer Deluxe
6- Explorer
7- Stiletto III
8- Alpha 2-in-1
9- Sabre II
10- Avenger
11- Travel King Master 2 - in (same as Chess Express but also plays checkers)
12- Chess Express
13- Cutlass
14- Micro Chess
15- Merlin

Therefore all of the above are definitely prior to the next Product Brochure (1997) had:

1- Grandmaster
2- Karpov 2294
3- Mirage
4- Ivan
5- Igor
6- King Master II
7- The Excalibur
8- Crusader
9- Saber III
10- Escort
11- Viper
12- Travel King Master (same as Squire but plays checkers (same as Kingmaster II)
13- Squire

Best Regards
Nick
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Post by Mike Watters »

spacious_mind wrote:
Hi Mike,

Thanks for putting all that together. We differ in a few places, ie

Stiletto (missing) = 1993
Stiletto Deluxe II (missing=1994),
Stiletto Deluxe = 1993 (you show it as 1994 (that's the date for Stiletto II Stiletto II Deluxe))

Also I believe Mirage came out for Christmas 1996?

Correct there is a gap, that is the period where Excalibur had find other sources to make computers.

That could also be the period for Steve's investment loss story. ie. lots of orders from America but nothing to delivers. Down payments lost in liquidation. Who knows.

It's easy to mix up CXG & Krypton. (Not Steve but Ron Nelson talking. It would be easy for him to mix up one with the other since owner for both was the same)

Best regards
Hi Nick

Many thanks. Corrections done. I had got myself in a bit of a muddle with the five Stilettos. No idea where the Mirage in 1997 first came from. Possibly Kurt K.

I have also added the Lancer Express, though this seems to be a Sharper Image variant, and the LCD Chess Express. Also switched Deluxe Talking Touch Chess to 2005. We only now differ on 'The Excalibur' which I prefer to call the Excalibur Electronic Chess Computer. Are the Platinum Grandmaster or Walnut Mirage worthy of separate model status? Probably not.

Also sorted Tiger out as much as possible. Doing the same for Millennium would be a step too far.

Now 62 Excalibur models so far (without minor variations) 6 originating from CXG, 4 Novag, 1 Lexibook, at least 12 from Krypton/Systema, 7 shared mostly with RadioShack. From your 1996/97 brochure lists missing Legend III, Avenger and Micro Chess. Neither you nor Maurice seem to have those. Tom had Tiger and Systema Micro Chess clones.

Bought a Systema today just to see what is inside. Help!

All the best
Mike
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