Something in Wiki doesn't add up with Revelation 1 & 2

[spacious_mind]

I just had a look at the Revelation Emulation programs reports in Wiki and something doesn't add up correctly.

The difference in speed as far as I can tell between Revelation 1 and Revelation 2 is around 40% improvement with Revelation II.

Therefore if I take for example Revelation 1 Polgar:

http://www.schach-computer.info/wiki/in ... Revelation

It shows 25 MHz Emulation speed.

If you look at Revelation 2:

http://www.schach-computer.info/wiki/in ... elation_II

Polgar shows 36 MHz for Revelation 2. If you multiply 25 MHz times 1.4 you get 35 MHz. Therefore that is about right and matches the Hardware specification difference between Revelation 1 and Revelation 2.

Now however if you look at the Lang programs and we take for example Lyon, Vancouver or Portorose. Then you have showing at Wiki:

Revelation 1 = ca. 68000 36 MHz = 68020 18 MHz
Revelation 2 = Ø Mephisto Turniermaschine 68030 66 MHz

Well one or the other is obviously wrong! And I suspect both are wrong.

If you look at Schachcomputer.Info Active rating you show:

LYON
Mephisto Lyon 68000 = 2159 ELO = 29 Games
Mephisto Lyon 68020 = 2162 ELO = 157 Games
Mephisto Lyon 68020 24 MHz = 2269 ELO = 140 Games
Mephisto Lyon 68020 30 MHz = 2278 ELO = 140 Games (Coincidence or mistake ?)
Phoenix Revelation Lyon = 2290 ELO = 133 Games
Mephisto TM Lyon 68030 36 MHz = 2297 ELO = 155 Games
Phoenix Revelation II Lyon = 2310 ELO = 22 Games

Difference of 13 ELO in favor of Revelation II but only 22 games played. TM Lyon at 36 MHz is ELO 7 better than Revelation 1 both played 100+ games. With this assumption if you assumed Revelation 1 is less than TM Lyon 36 MHz then you could at best say that Revelation 2 Lyon = TM 68030-40 MHz & Revelation 1 = Maybe TM 68030-28-30 MHz.

Vancouver

Mephisto Vancouver 68000 = 2178 ELO = 287 Games
Mephisto Vancouver 68020 = 2225 ELO = 170 Games
Mephisto Vancouver 68020 24 MHz = ELO 2259 = 112 Games
Phoenix Revelation Vancouver = 2292 ELO = 146 Games
Mephisto TM Vancouver 68030 36 MHz = 2333 ELO = 122 Games

Here Revelation Vancouver is definitely worse than TM Vancouver by a larger gap than Lyon. But same might apply Revelation Vancouver = TM 68030-28-30 MHz

London
Mephisto London 68000 = 2182 ELO = 26 Games
Mephisto London 68020 = 2212 ELO = 145 Games
Phoenix Revelation London = 2263 ELO = 99 Games
Mephisto London 68030 + TM 36 MHz = 2339 ELO = 426 Games

Here with London there are lots of games played and TM London in 78 ELO better than Revelation London. Interesting is also that the speed doubling between 68000 and 68020 only improved the rating by 30 ELO. At a guess with London I would say that Revelation London lies at around TM 68030-18 MHz. Which would make Revelation 2 London be around TM 68030-25 MHz

Portorose
Mephisto Portorose 68020 = 2150 ELO = 109 Games
Phoenix Revelation Portorose = 2157 ELO = 108 Games
Mephisto TM Portorose 68030 36 MHz = 2271 = 73 Games

Here just like London TM Portorose after lots of games is 114 ELO Stronger than Revelation Portorose. Therefore being generous I would say that at best the result would be the same as London meaning Revelation 1 Portorose = TM 68030-18 MHz and Revelation 2 Portorose = TM 68030- 25 MHz.

Now if I were to add the four together and then divide by 4 you would get approximately the following:

Revelation 1 = TM 68030-23.5 MHz
Revelation 2 = TM 68030-32.5 MHz

Therefore I would say both Wiki's are wrong. Revelation 1 is understated by quite a lot and Revelation 2 is overstated by quite a lot.

I am happy to be proven wrong folks. Bring it on!!

Best regards

[spacious_mind]

Hello Nick. I think that you might be forgetting that supposedly the chess program emulations in the Revelation and Revelation 2 chess computers do not run at a clock speed of 500 mHz and 800+ mHz respectively. Only the super strong chess engines in those two chess boards operate at those clock speeds. Also, Phoenix Chess Systems' website indicates that the Richard Lang chess programs in the Revelation 2 chess computer are the Mephisto Tournament Machine versions of those chess programs that operated at a clock speed of 66 mHz not 36 mHz.

No I am not forgetting it. Emulation programs are emulations, therefore you need an emulator to run the original engine ROM images. The ROM images are running at full speed within the 500/800 MHz constraints. If a faster Revelation were to come out at say 1200 MHz then accordingly these programs would run even faster.

Think of DOSBox as an example. A DOS program also does not run at your 4.3 GHz computer speed. It will however if you allow the DOSBox program to run at full speed be a lot faster then the original DOS program.

Best regards

[Steve B]

Hi Guys

Not sure what the disagreement is about here
i did tests of all of the emulations in the Rev I and Rev II comparing the search speeds to the actual physical Mephisto modules and Novag computers

Rev I:
http://hiarcs.net/forums/viewtopic.php?p=46625#46625

Rev II:
http://hiarcs.net/forums/viewtopic.php?p=64230#64230

on Average the search speeds for the emulations were 4x faster in the Rev I as compared to the original modules and 10x faster in the Rev II

Archival Regards
Steve

[spacious_mind]

Hi Guys

Not sure what the disagreement is about here
i did tests of all of the emulations in the Rev I and Rev II comparing the search speeds to the actual physical Mephisto modules and Novag computers

Rev I:
http://hiarcs.net/forums/viewtopic.php?p=46625#46625

Rev II:
http://hiarcs.net/forums/viewtopic.php?p=64230#64230

on Average the search speeds for the emulations were 4x faster in the Rev I as compared to the original modules and 10x faster in the Rev II

Archival Regards
Steve

Hi Steve,

I know the speeds. But there is more to it then speed. If that were the only factor for their ratings then every single Revelation II Lang should come out better rated than a TM at 36 MHz by around 30 ELO. If all the Lang's don't show better ELO's in their favor when compared to a TM, then obviously that is not the case. At the moment it does not seem to be the case that they are better rated, well at least not until we see enough games for them all to be all listed.

Therefore something else is missing in the assumptions of them all being equivalent to TM 68030-66 MHz.

Not least being that these emulations seem to be 68000 ROM's therefore what else is missing? More knowledge in a 68,030, book? bigger hash? I don't know. But something does not add up to be able to claim 68,030 66 MHz.

Besides such bold statements are not realistic, especially when people start naming them Mephisto 68030-66 Mhz. Perhaps they should stick to the root comparison which is 68,000-XXX Mhz.

As I stated in my first post, based on their ELO's they are currently averaging below even a TM 36 MHz. I quoted ELO facts based on ELO's that are currently made available.

Regarding Resurrections and Revelations, I have the highest regard for Ruud and his achievements. After all I must be the only person in the world that owns not one but two of each of his Resurrections and Revelations. If I ever get around to Revelation II then I am probably crazy enough to buy two of those as well. Unfortunately at the moment I keep still seeing some oldie dedicated computers that I want to spend my money on first, otherwise I would have bought one by now

I do however also have the same highest admiration for all chess programs and computers, therefore I would like to think that I compare and treat all of them equally. And now having said all that, I still see that something does not add up

Best regards

[Steve B]

Therefore something else is missing in the assumptions of them all being equivalent to TM 68030-66 MHz.

Ah Ok I see your point
instead of identifying the programs as emulations they are referring to them as if they were an actual physical TM 68030 running at 66 MHz
does seem a bit misleading..

my only point was I did the tests and I reported how much faster the emulations were running as compared to the original modules and computers
didn't make any ELO computations from there

good luck with your purchasing more oldie dedicated chess computers
hopefully you will not be bidding against a "gang of three" each time you bid on one

Regards
Steve

[spacious_mind]

Therefore something else is missing in the assumptions of them all being equivalent to TM 68030-66 MHz.

Ah Ok I see your point
instead of identifying the programs as emulations they are referring to them as if they were an actual physical TM 68030 running at 66 MHz
does seem a bit misleading..

my only point was I did the tests and I reported how much faster the emulations were running as compared to the original modules and computers
didn't make any ELO computations from there

good luck with your purchasing more oldie dedicated chess computers
hopefully you will not be bidding against a "gang of three" each time you bid on one

Regards
Steve

Hey I can't help it. A lot of people were crazy enough to sell their computers to afford a modern costly dedicated computer. Just taking advantage of the market situation. Hmmm let me think..... vintage 80/90s computers vs 201x computer... hmmmm ... its a no brainer for me!

ps..or would you disagree?

regards

[Steve B]

Hey I can't help it. A lot of people were crazy enough to sell their computers to afford a modern costly dedicated computer. Just taking advantage of the market situation. Hmmm let me think..... vintage 80/90s computers vs 201x computer... hmmmm ... its a no brainer for me!

ps..or would you disagree?

regards

not sure what you mean ?
no issues with you buying old chess computers ..why would I have issues with that?
I was just taking a bit of a jab at you for being a part of the "gang of three" with the Schroeder private auction
Just Teasing Regards
Steve

[spacious_mind]

An example of something vintage:

http://www.oldcomputers.net/amiga4000.html

Some things are just worth keeping. Take a look at the cost.

I should elaborate. A few years ago you could get one for a couple of hundred dollars. (deliberately picking a non chess computer example) Nowadays you are lucky to get one on Ebay for less than $2000. In a few years it will likely exceed its original cost.

There are a more and more people who are becoming retro gamers. It is a nostalgia thing. Kind of the same with dedicated computers, the older they get and the fewer they become, they will hold their value in addition to providing you countless hours of enjoyment.

Regards

[spacious_mind]

Hey I can't help it. A lot of people were crazy enough to sell their computers to afford a modern costly dedicated computer. Just taking advantage of the market situation. Hmmm let me think..... vintage 80/90s computers vs 201x computer... hmmmm ... its a no brainer for me!

ps..or would you disagree?

regards

not sure what you mean ?
no issues with you buying old chess computer ..why would I have issues with that?
I was making taking a bit of a swipe at you for being a part of the "gang of three"
just teasing regards
Steve

I know you were teasing! And, I did not read it as a swipe. I am just making comments on what dedicated computer priorities I have.
Best regards

[Steve B]

Hey I can't help it. A lot of people were crazy enough to sell their computers to afford a modern costly dedicated computer. Just taking advantage of the market situation. Hmmm let me think..... vintage 80/90s computers vs 201x computer... hmmmm ... its a no brainer for me!

ps..or would you disagree?

regards

not sure what you mean ?
no issues with you buying old chess computer ..why would I have issues with that?
I was making taking a bit of a swipe at you for being a part of the "gang of three"
just teasing regards
Steve

I know you were teasing! And, I did not read it as a swipe. I am just making comments on what dedicated computer priorities I have.
Best regards

I changed the word from swipe to jab
more to my meaning as a playful comment
MMV Turbo Kit Regards
Steve

[spacious_mind]

Hey I can't help it. A lot of people were crazy enough to sell their computers to afford a modern costly dedicated computer. Just taking advantage of the market situation. Hmmm let me think..... vintage 80/90s computers vs 201x computer... hmmmm ... its a no brainer for me!

ps..or would you disagree?

regards

not sure what you mean ?
no issues with you buying old chess computer ..why would I have issues with that?
I was making taking a bit of a swipe at you for being a part of the "gang of three"
just teasing regards
Steve

I know you were teasing! And, I did not read it as a swipe. I am just making comments on what dedicated computer priorities I have.
Best regards

I changed the word from swipe to jab
more to my meaning as a playful comment
MMV Turbo Kit Regards
Steve

Both are ok Steve I know your humor, you don't have to worry about me not understanding playfulness.

Best regards

[steffen]

This is interesting, Nick. I used to have a C64 first and the a C128...

[spacious_mind]

This is interesting, Nick. I used to have a C64 first and the a C128...

Yes it is interesting. I have both C64 and C128. With regards to the Amiga 4000 I have been tempted to buy on but its getting costlier to find one. Same with an Amiga 1200. I have it but I am looking for another but can't seem to find one that doesn't get bid on like crazy. Even the 1200 sell at $1000 nowadays.

Vintage regards

[Dave C]

This is interesting, Nick. I used to have a C64 first and the a C128...

Yes it is interesting. I have both C64 and C128. With regards to the Amiga 4000 I have been tempted to buy on but its getting costlier to find one. Same with an Amiga 1200. I have it but I am looking for another but can't seem to find one that doesn't get bid on like crazy. Even the 1200 sell at $1000 nowadays.

Vintage regards

I wish I still had my Amiga 2000 with 40 mb internal hard-drive on a card. I would be glad for you to have it. I paid 400 just for the Seagate hard drive addition. ouch - memory was crazy expensive in the late 1980's... plus a bunch of great games. I gave it to a good family that couldn't afford a computer, about fifteen years ago.
I never dreamed it would become a collectors item.

Oh well....
Dave

[spacious_mind]

This is interesting, Nick. I used to have a C64 first and the a C128...

Yes it is interesting. I have both C64 and C128. With regards to the Amiga 4000 I have been tempted to buy on but its getting costlier to find one. Same with an Amiga 1200. I have it but I am looking for another but can't seem to find one that doesn't get bid on like crazy. Even the 1200 sell at $1000 nowadays.

Vintage regards

I wish I still had my Amiga 2000 with 40 mb internal hard-drive on a card. I would be glad for you to have it. I paid 400 just for the Seagate hard drive addition. ouch - memory was crazy expensive in the late 1980's... plus a bunch of great games. I gave it to a good family that couldn't afford a computer, about fifteen years ago.
I never dreamed it would become a collectors item.

Oh well....
Dave

Hi Dave,

Thanks, but what you did is much better! I would have done the same any day.

Best regards