Strangely high serial number for Fidelity SC9

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Mike Watters
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Post by Mike Watters »

Hi All

On the basis that you are never sure what is inside a Fidelity until you test it/open it up I bought a SC9 SN 40693826 to test it alongside my 9A and 9B.
The results I got for Larry's tests, and Colditz 7 and Colditz 11 were -

SN 23301339 (Sensory 9A)
replied d5 or e5 to h2-h4
Larry's mate in 3 - 1 min 25 secs
Colditz 7 - 4 mins 40 secs
Colditz 11 - 8 mins 25 secs

SN 33295753
replies b6
1 min 1 sec
2 mins 17 secs
4 mins 05 secs

SN 40693826
replies b6
1 min 1 sec
2 mins 18 secs
4 mins 4 secs

So no difference between the 33x and the 40x, both bought from the US.
In view of the results I didn't bother to open up the 40x.
My 33x pcb looks like this -

Image

which I guess is a standard 2 MHz Sensory 9B just like the 40x.

All the best
Mike
Peter63
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Post by Peter63 »

Hi Mike,

You get the same results as I when testing my SC9 4069xxxx.
I first thought that it must be a 3 mhz version since the results from colditz test don't match with the times listed on the german schachcomputer site.
It´s now clear that the times listed there must be incorrect.

Anyway I'm very happy with my SC9 B version. 2 mhz.

Greetings / Peter
Mike Watters
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Post by Mike Watters »

Yes Peter, I am happy with my SC9s also. Nice machines to play and set up problems with.

When I first got the 33295753 I thought I had something different from a normal 9B. Published tests and timings can be misleading and Fidelity's tendency to update hardware and software on the fly means you cannot always be sure what's inside unless you open them up.

My guess is that the majority of 40xxxxxx machines, maybe nearly all, are standard 2MHz 9Bs.

All the best
Mike
yoyo_chessboard
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Post by yoyo_chessboard »

if you look at the following topic :
http://hiarcs.net/forums/viewtopic.php?p=80240#80240

you could see that the serial number could be of the form YDDDSSSS with Y year, DDD day in year from 1 till 366.

so serial beginning by 4 are from 1984 and are the youngest of that model.

my 'old' SC9 identified as SC9A has serial 2 330 4332
its ROM are labelled:
B30 :no label
B31 :101-1034B02 date 8242

mike
your SC9 3 329 5753 has
B30 : 101-1034B01 date 8348
B31 : 101-1034C02 date 8347

it is more recent.

may be peter or mike :
as you have SC9 beginning by 4 069 you could open your SC9 and report the reference of the ROM.
it will not give us the clock speed but can definitivly tell us if there is a third SC9 binary.

also my pcb has ID : 510.1046C01 and yours 510.1046D01
yoyo_chessboard
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Post by yoyo_chessboard »

on mike watters website, i have downloaed the computer chess digest 1984.

at pages 114-115 there is a small article about SC9 B.
it is said SC9 was introduced "during october 1983".
october 1983 days in year are from 274 till 304, according to that link given by spacious_mind :
https://www.timeanddate.com/calendar/cu ... doy=1&df=1

if we refer to the other post about Fidelity serial numbering, YDDDSSSS
that means that SC9 with serial which are > 3 304 can 'almost certainly' be considered as SC9B.
of course during some weeks there were probably SC9A and SC9B in stores, but as we have almost demonstrated that Fidelity shipped with ascending serial number, those > than a given day in october are SC9B.

i think it is a good manner to identify SC9B.

that fits also with mike's SN 33295753 that is a SC9B. (friday 25 november 1983)
which seems to have the smallest SC9B serial number, among those collected for the moment !

now a good challenge for hiarcs members would be to find the first serial(s) of SC9B, probably something between 3274xxxx and 3304xxxx.
as we know that most of the labelling were made on fridays which are days : 280, 287, 294, 301, so that give 3280...., 3287...., 3294...., 3301....
yoyo_chessboard
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Post by yoyo_chessboard »

on Ebay there are many SC9 to buy.
They claim to be SC9B but their serial number are prior to october 1983, which is the date of introduction of SC9B

they claim that because of the response time to some test.
but i doubt that there are real SC9B, according what we have established about the fidelity's serial numbering.
none of the board have serial greater than 3329xxxx. (october 1983)

i see a big difference between having the same response time (because you have the right clockrate) and having the second set of ROMs (SC9B that is stronger)
the response time can be obtained just by having the same clockrate !

SC9 seems have been in many variants :

myself i had no chance: i bought 3 SC9, but all are SC9A.
i have two running at 1.47 Mhz and one at 1.8 Mhz, all with serial < 2330xxxx , so end of 1982.
and some are at 2 Mhz, or some others at 3 Mhz.

so is there a definitive way to say a board is a SC9B, according to its behavior and not only measuring response time ?

it is possible to somebody having a serial greater than 332x to open it to identify the ROMs and the real clockrate: for example the many 4069xxxx boards.

or better, could somebody having such a board send it me to make a full analysis and dump ?
(i leave in France)
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spacious_mind
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Post by spacious_mind »

Hi Yoyo,

I know you have collected some more since the list below:

Computer Name Model Serial # Serializing Date Serializing Year UK Timeline Owner ZIP
Sensory Chess Challenger 9 SC9 21551611 Friday. June 4, 1982 Jun-82 Jun-82 NickM 33178
Sensory Chess Challenger 9 SC9 21761247 Friday, June 25, 1982 Jun-82 Jun-82 NickM 33178
Sensory Chess Challenger 9 SC9 22605960 Friday, September 17, 1982 Sep-82 Jun-82 Unknown 33178
Sensory Chess Challenger 9 SC9 22956587 Friday, October 22, 1982 Oct-82 Jun-82 NickM 33178
Sensory Chess Challenger 9 SC9 22956936 Friday, October 22, 1982 Oct-82 Jun-82 Unknown 33178
Sensory Chess Challenger 9 SC9 23168075 Friday, November 12, 1982 Nov-82 Jun-82 Unknown 33178
Sensory Chess Challenger 9 SC9 23301339 Friday, November 26, 1982 Nov-82 Jun-82 MikeW 33178
Sensory Chess Challenger 9 SC9 23304332 Friday, November 26, 1982 Nov-82 Jun-82 Yoyo 33178
Sensory Chess Challenger 9 SC9A 23305465 Friday, November 26, 1982 Nov-82 Jun-82 Yoyo 33178
Sensory Chess Challenger 9 SC9 23306264 Friday, November 26, 1982 Nov-82 Jun-82 Unknown 33178
Sensory Chess Challenger 9 SC9 31401651 Friday, May 20, 1983 May-83 Jun-82 Berger 33178
Sensory Chess Challenger 9 SC9 32100705 Friday, July 29, 1983 Jul-83 Aug-83 DaveC 33178
Sensory Chess Challenger 9 SC9 32381304 Friday, August 26, 1983 Aug-83 Oct-83 Tibono2 33178
Sensory Chess Challenger 9B SC9 33295753 Friday, November 25, 1983 Nov-83 Jul-79 MikeW 33178
Sensory Chess Challenger 9 SC9 40693216 Friday, March 9, 1984 Mar-84 Jul-79 Unknown 33178
Sensory Chess Challenger 9 SC9 40693586 Friday, March 9, 1984 Mar-84 Jul-79 Ebay 33178
Sensory Chess Challenger 9 SC9 40693826 Friday, March 9, 1984 Mar-84 Jul-79 Unknown 33178

Berger has a May 1983 and Tibono has August 1983. If they were to check on theirs you might be able to rule out anything before November 83, Mike's. To check it further someone would need to find a serial number from March 84 and see what it has as well. I would imagine that Fidelity would not revert back to an older ROM, so there should really be only two choices from what you have posted today:

1) November 83 onwards = 9B and/or C
2) No such thing as a 9B (meaning just faster and not a version change)

ps.. sorry I see that Mike has already posted some 4xx tunnel vision on my part I never looked at the top of the post before posting :)

Best regards
Nick
Larry
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Post by Larry »

One of my SC9B's broke down in the middle of a game the other
day. So I took the back off to investigate, and was surprised to find this:
https://flic.kr/p/UQYXZe
serial# 33294149
The little circuit board you see is not soldered to the main board,
just a push fit. Before this machine broke down I had no reason to
check solving times. I certainly will do if I manage to get it going.
Has anyone else seen one of these mini circuit boards in an SC9A/B?
Larry
yoyo_chessboard
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Post by yoyo_chessboard »

yoyo_chessboard wrote:on mike watters website, i have downloaed the computer chess digest 1984.

at pages 114-115 there is a small article about SC9 B.
it is said SC9 was introduced "during october 1983".
october 1983 days in year are from 274 till 304, according to that link given by spacious_mind :
https://www.timeanddate.com/calendar/cu ... doy=1&df=1

if we refer to the other post about Fidelity serial numbering, YDDDSSSS
that means that SC9 with serial which are > 3 304 can 'almost certainly' be considered as SC9B.
of course during some weeks there were probably SC9A and SC9B in stores, but as we have almost demonstrated that Fidelity shipped with ascending serial number, those > than a given day in october are SC9B.

i think it is a good manner to identify SC9B.

that fits also with mike's SN 33295753 that is a SC9B. (friday 25 november 1983)
which seems to have the smallest SC9B serial number, among those collected for the moment !

now a good challenge for hiarcs members would be to find the first serial(s) of SC9B, probably something between 3274xxxx and 3304xxxx.
as we know that most of the labelling were made on fridays which are days : 280, 287, 294, 301, so that give 3280...., 3287...., 3294...., 3301....

what i have collected so far :
sensory chess challenger 9 SC9A 22956587 8 2 1982 295 43 Friday 6587 Period_3_Miami hiarcs_Spacious_Mind
sensory chess challenger 9 SC9A 22956936 8 2 1982 295 43 Friday 6936 Period_3_Miami hiarcs_member
sensory chess challenger 9 SC9A 23168075 8 2 1982 316 46 Friday 8075 Period_3_Miami http://www.topschach.de
sensory chess challenger 9 SC9A 23301339 8 2 1982 330 48 Friday 1339 Period_3_Miami hiarcs_mike_watters
sensory chess challenger 9 SC9A 23304777 8 2 1982 330 48 Friday 4777 Period_3_Miami schach-computer.info
sensory chess challenger 9 SC9A 23304332 8 2 1982 330 48 Friday 4332 Period_3_Miami hiarcs_yoyo_chessboard
sensory chess challenger 9 SC9A 23305465 8 2 1982 330 48 Friday 5465 Period_3_Miami hiarcs_yoyo_chessboard
sensory chess challenger 9 SC9A 23306264 8 2 1982 330 48 Friday 6264 Period_3_Miami hiarcs_member
sensory chess challenger 9 SC9A 31401651 8 3 1983 140 21 Friday 1651 Period_3_Miami hiarcs_berger
sensory chess challenger 9 SC9A 32100705 8 3 1983 210 31 Friday 0705 Period_3_Miami hiarcs_davec
sensory chess challenger 9 SC9A 32170952 8 3 1983 217 32 Friday 0952 Period_3_Miami ebay
sensory chess challenger 9 SC9A 32171952 8 3 1983 217 32 Friday 1952 Period_3_Miami hiarcs_yoyo_chessboard
sensory chess challenger 9 SC9A 32381304 8 3 1983 238 35 Friday 1304 Period_3_Miami hiarcs_member

sensory chess challenger 9B SC9B 33294149 8 3 1983 329 48 Friday 4149 Period_3_Miami hiarcs_larry
sensory chess challenger 9B SC9B 33295753 8 3 1983 329 48 Friday 5753 Period_3_Miami hiarcs_mike_watters
sensory chess challenger 9B SC9B 40693216 8 4 1984 069 10 Friday 3216 Period_3_Miami hiarcs_member
sensory chess challenger 9B SC9B 40693586 8 4 1984 069 10 Friday 3586 Period_3_Miami ebay
sensory chess challenger 9B SC9B 40693826 8 4 1984 069 10 Friday 3826 Period_3_Miami hiarcs_mike_watters



i am sure that my SC9 are all SC9A because i opened all them and dumped them.
so serials 3217xxxx are for sure still SC9A.
and 3329 for sure SC9B
that matches which what is said prior.

i would like to buy a SC9B 'just' to open it and dump it (because dump in MAME is not 'certified' and in the past we discovered that some dumps were not what they claim to be), but none on Ebay have the right serial number and owners claim they are SC9B just to ask more money.

having already bought 3 SC9 without success , i am now waiting 'an almost 100% sure' SC9B to catch.


larry:
you have the same daughter board near the CPU as shown on mike's photos in in message of 4 may 2016 just upper on page 3.
it isn't very clear because he focused on the ROMs but you can see it on the botton of the photo.
we can also see that you have the same ROM revision as mike's SC9.

looking at mike's and larry's photos i also see a major difference between what i consider as SC9A and SC9 B:
in my 3 SC9A i have 3 PCB identified as : 510-1046C01 (2-1-82)
mike's and larry's PCB are 510-1046D01 and that puzzled me long time ago.
what did they change between C and D ?
when me compare the PCB :
on C revision there is a 74LS244 in the middle
on D revision there is a 74LS251 at the same place
is the daughter only on SC9B and what is it for ?
we have not enough data to say that at the moment


if somebody would be kind enough accept to send my a SC9B i would be very honored to open it and complete the analysis.

regards.
yoyo_chessboard
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Post by yoyo_chessboard »

my flickr albums

https://www.flickr.com/photos/149310091 ... 8894040323

larry :
could you make some more detailled photos of your SC9B

the area of the resonator (the blue sugar near the daughter board) , the CPU,...

regards
Larry
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Post by Larry »

yoyo_chessboard wrote:my flickr albums

https://www.flickr.com/photos/149310091 ... 8894040323

larry :
could you make some more detailled photos of your SC9B

the area of the resonator (the blue sugar near the daughter board) , the CPU,...

regards
Here's a couple, another one coming.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/68004588@ ... res/504SkU
Larry
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Post by Larry »

Here's the other one I think you are interested in, showing the resonator.
The frequency was generated by the 555 chip, which in turn was controlled
by the values of a couple of resistors and an electrolytic capacitor.
However, and strangely, the "capacitor" seems to be an inductor. It has
written on the side of it "20000 H ". Does the "H" mean Henry's? ie, the
units for inductance?
https://flic.kr/p/TBVj1P
yoyo_chessboard
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Post by yoyo_chessboard »

Larry:

another thing annoys me :
on your photos we see that there is a R6502AP and a 3.9 Mhz resonator.
the 6502AP is given for 2 Mhz
and the 3.9 Mhz resonator suggests that the board is running at a bigger speed.

so i see two explanations :
1/the CPU is overclocked (at 3.9 Mhz probably) and that could explain why yours could have been killed.
i already repaired a chesster challenger with a killed CPU

2/ the CPU is not overclocked : but in that case why have put a daughter board and a 3.9 Mhz resonator.
why not simply keep the previous cheaper hardware ?
Ron explained that among his goals, one was cost-killing ( produce more cheaper boards and sell more higher prices).
so that second explanation doesn't match with his cost-killing obsession.



also :
we frequently refer to a french company .
i think it is REXTON, the french reseller of Fidelity products in France at that period.
they did the sells and the after sell support

regards.
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Berger
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Post by Berger »

Larry wrote:The frequency was generated by the 555 chip, which in turn was controlled
by the values of a couple of resistors and an electrolytic capacitor.
However, and strangely, the "capacitor" seems to be an inductor. It has
written on the side of it "20000 H ".
This configuration is typical of Fidelity chess computers. It's a capacitor (non-electrolytic, possibly polystyrene) of 20 nF (20000 pF). This 555 circuit oscillator generates a signal of approximately 600 Hz, for the time control.
yoyo_chessboard wrote:on your photos we see that there is a R6502AP and a 3.9 Mhz resonator.
the 6502AP is given for 2 Mhz
and the 3.9 Mhz resonator suggests that the board is running at a bigger speed.
The clock signal could also be 3.9/2 MHz ...ie approximately 2 MHz

Regards,
Berger
yoyo_chessboard
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Post by yoyo_chessboard »

Berger wrote:
Larry wrote:The frequency was generated by the 555 chip, which in turn was controlled
by the values of a couple of resistors and an electrolytic capacitor.
However, and strangely, the "capacitor" seems to be an inductor. It has
written on the side of it "20000 H ".
This configuration is typical of Fidelity chess computers. It's a capacitor (non-electrolytic, possibly polystyrene) of 20 nF (20000 pF). This 555 circuit oscillator generates a signal of approximately 600 Hz, for the time control.
yoyo_chessboard wrote:on your photos we see that there is a R6502AP and a 3.9 Mhz resonator.
the 6502AP is given for 2 Mhz
and the 3.9 Mhz resonator suggests that the board is running at a bigger speed.
The clock signal could also be 3.9/2 MHz ...ie approximately 2 MHz

Regards,
Berger
Hi Berger

I agree with you and i imagined that case which is very logic.

but why make such a daughter board and circuitry when it was so simple to keep the previous hardware ?
It is why i introduced the Ron Nelson cost killing obsession.

:idea: :idea:
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