Is Fidelity Little Chester really only 4KB of ROM?

[Irrawang]

I bought my first Little Chester over 20 years ago, a Tandy version for $200, I sold my Canadian canoe to raise the funds. I had always considered it to be a slower version of the excellence. The playing strength was typical Spracklen, being especially good in the endgame and I'd play it on a low level (about 10 secs) so I'd have a chance of winning. My strength would be 1400-1600 However just recently I have discovered that it supposedly has only 4KB of ROM and 256 Bytes of RAM. Apart from the fact that it plays strong chess, it has a opening book of 2000 moves and a take back feature of 128 moves! All this in just 4KB?

[ChessChallenger]

I bought my first Little Chester over 20 years ago, a Tandy version for $200, I sold my Canadian canoe to raise the funds. I had always considered it to be a slower version of the excellence. The playing strength was typical Spracklen, being especially good in the endgame and I'd play it on a low level (about 10 secs) so I'd have a chance of winning. My strength would be 1400-1600 However just recently I have discovered that it supposedly has only 4KB of ROM and 256 Bytes of RAM. Apart from the fact that it plays strong chess, it has a opening book of 2000 moves and a take back feature of 128 moves! All this in just 4KB?

1/11/2016,,Ron Nelson Chess PRODUCT DEVELOPMENT CHRONOLOGY,,,,
,,,,,,
YEAR,Model #,PROJECT,MCU,DATE,COMMENT,Factory

1991,6125,Little Chesster (Fidelity Spracklen Chess Engine),M50743 + ROM + RAM,4/15/1991,65c02 Core Expanded MCU external 128KByte ROM 2KByte Ram,CXG

[Irrawang]

I bought my first Little Chester over 20 years ago, a Tandy version for $200, I sold my Canadian canoe to raise the funds. I had always considered it to be a slower version of the excellence. The playing strength was typical Spracklen, being especially good in the endgame and I'd play it on a low level (about 10 secs) so I'd have a chance of winning. My strength would be 1400-1600 However just recently I have discovered that it supposedly has only 4KB of ROM and 256 Bytes of RAM. Apart from the fact that it plays strong chess, it has a opening book of 2000 moves and a take back feature of 128 moves! All this in just 4KB?

1/11/2016,,Ron Nelson Chess PRODUCT DEVELOPMENT CHRONOLOGY,,,,
,,,,,,
YEAR,Model #,PROJECT,MCU,DATE,COMMENT,Factory


1991,6125,Little Chesster (Fidelity Spracklen Chess Engine),M50743 + ROM + RAM,4/15/1991,65c02 Core Expanded MCU external 128KByte ROM 2KByte Ram,CXG

Thanks for the response Ron, although I'm not sure if I understand it properly. So I'll assume that you confirm the 4KB ROM.

My first computer was a CCX and it helped raise my game by about 300 points. It brought me up to club standard (1500+). I remember a club member remarking that my game had noticeably improved. I still have great affection for my old CCX.

Cheers,
Rob.

[paulwise3]

This question bothers me too since Luuk Hofman told me recently about his holiday experiences with the Radio Shack Talking chess tutor 1900L, which is a clone of the Little Chesster.
I found that in the U1800 Kaufbeuren 2016 tournament it scored a respectable 4,5 out of 7. See https://www.schach-computer.info/wiki/i ... e_Gruppe_B
I asked a question on the german forum, and only Nick was able to give some clue. For me the most enlightening find was that Nick remembered Ron Nelson stating this on this nice Hiarcs forum:

"One of my last projects at Fidelity/H&G was Little Chesster. The goal was to cost reduce Chesster.
The LCD was eliminated, a single chip MCU with external Rom & Ram was used. A three chip solution which allowed a single sided PCB for further cost savings.
The engine & voice code of Chesster was preserved but some of the voice data was removed since it wasn’t used."

Only after re-reading this some day later I noticed the critical part:
"The engine & voice code of Chesster was preserved but some of the voice data was removed since it wasn’t used."

So that could imply that the engine is the same as that of the Chesster Challenger and Kishon Chesster!?
Which is 32 KB. But running on a slower speed: 2 MHz versus 5 resp. 3,56 MHz, and only 2 kb RAM instead of 8 kb RAM

Nick also suggests it could be a version of the Excellence.
Is there anyone who could do some sort of clone-test?
For instance take a 30 secs/move game of the Kishon Chesster and test if the Little Chesster/1900L makes the same moves at a 60 secs/move level?
Notice that the Little Chesster seems to have ponder off (=Easy On) as the default.

Interesting questions regards,
Paul

[spacious_mind]

So that could imply that the engine is the same as that of the Chesster Challenger and Kishon Chesster!?
Which is 32 KB. But running on a slower speed: 2 MHz versus 5 resp. 3,56 MHz, and only 2 kb RAM instead of 8 kb RAM

Nick also suggests it could be a version of the Excellence.
Is there anyone who could do some sort of clone-test?
For instance take a 30 secs/move game of the Kishon Chesster and test if the Little Chesster/1900L makes the same moves at a 60 secs/move level?
Notice that the Little Chesster seems to have ponder off (=Easy On) as the default.

Interesting questions regards
Paul

I can test it but it might be a while, so if anyone else volunteers then great.

btw... I have been burned too many times with Ron Nelson by me or others quoting something (especially me) that is wrong and then later finding out that Ron Nelson was right. Therefore as far as Fidelity Chesster Challenger I am now sticking to what is published in the literature at 3 MHz a copy of which Hein has as well. Not buying into 5 MHz unless I see it written down in a Fidelity paper as original.

Best regards

[spacious_mind]

So that could imply that the engine is the same as that of the Chesster Challenger and Kishon Chesster!?
Which is 32 KB. But running on a slower speed: 2 MHz versus 5 resp. 3,56 MHz, and only 2 kb RAM instead of 8 kb RAM

Nick also suggests it could be a version of the Excellence.
Is there anyone who could do some sort of clone-test?
For instance take a 30 secs/move game of the Kishon Chesster and test if the Little Chesster/1900L makes the same moves at a 60 secs/move level?
Notice that the Little Chesster seems to have ponder off (=Easy On) as the default.

Interesting questions regards
Paul

BTW had forgotten to mention that when I mentioned Excellence it was more than just Nick making stuff up.

You just need to look on page 21 of the Little Chesster User Manual to see that Fidelity tells you themselves what it is:



Regards

[paulwise3]

Nice discovery Nick!
I will inform Hein and Luuk about this.

Holmes sends his regards,
Paul

[spacious_mind]

Nice discovery Nick!
I will inform Hein and Luuk about this.

Holmes sends his regards,
Paul

I just looked in Wiki, Mike had indicated the same from a CCR report 1991. So its old news

Regards

Nick

[paulwise3]

Nice discovery Nick!
I will inform Hein and Luuk about this.

Holmes sends his regards,
Paul

I just looked in Wiki, Mike had indicated the same from a CCR report 1991. So its old news

Regards

Nick

Oh wow, so the info was there already all the time...?!

Forgot to look at the right place regards,
Paul

[Steve B]

You just need to look on page 21 of the Little Chesster User Manual to see that Fidelity tells you themselves what it is:

Interestingly...
While My Lil Chesster (33 ) manual has the Excellence typo
my lil Chesster (25) manual does not have it
it mentions no computer in the display of search depth section(2.7.6 Pg.21)
it says ..."after the computer makes its move and you make your move,it will automatically...."

this suggests they caught the typo and corrected it leading to the conclusion that 25 came out after 33
OR
of course its possible that the typo crept in afterwards

another glaring typo which i never noticed before...
on the 33 box it says it has 32 levels of play

Proof Reading Regards
Steve

[spacious_mind]

You just need to look on page 21 of the Little Chesster User Manual to see that Fidelity tells you themselves what it is:

Interestingly...
While My Lil Chesster (32 ) manual has the Excellence typo
my lil Chesster (25) does not have it
it mentions no computer in the display of search depth section

this suggests they caught the typo and corrected it leading to the conclusion that 25 came out after 32
OR
of course its possible that the typo crept in afterwards

Proof Reading Regards
Steve

Good thought.... what throws me is:

Little Chesster Challenger (33 levels) 6125 L101226 Oct-91 Mephisto-China MikeW 33172
Little Chesster Challenger (25 levels) 6125 L104946 Oct-91 Mephisto-CXG NickM 33172
Little Chesster Challenger (25 levels) 6125 N/A Oct-91 Mephisto-China MikeW 33172
Little Chesster Challenger (33 levels) 6125 N/A ` Mephisto-CXG NickM 33172

Mike's serial number L101226 (unless it is reversed and should be L101226 for 25 Level. The difference between that and L104946 3720 units. Which should make you think they were made in the same production week based on other production volumes Fidelity had in their Miami factory (I know its HK/China, but if you are going to serialize them then you should be having the same sequencing as its automated.

My 25 level has a serial number my 32 level does not.

Do you have any serial numbers on yours?

Also PCB has copyright Fidelity 1991 for my 32 level, yet none of the others show a copyright. Including the 32 Level Mike loaded into Wiki.

Just wish there was a proper Fidelity serial number on them then we would now for sure.

OK Adding to the confusion. My Sharper Image with the long H&G ROM has a higher serial number than the Sharper Image with the small square H&G ROM which has the lower serial number. So if it were based on the H&G ROM alone the small square one came before the long ROM. But RadioShack's with the small H&G ROM has a Sharp rom from 1992 (the only one that has a 1992 ROM is Radio Shack).

Regards
Nick

[Steve B]

Do you have any serial numbers on yours?

Just wish there was a proper Fidelity serial number on them then we would now for sure.

Regards
Nick

personally i dont put too much reliance on serial number analysis because these days we just dont know where these computers have been
there is no traceable provenance when a computer is bought through Ebay or from another collector 5 times over
serial numbers can fall off and be replaced from another computer ...etc...etc..
my computers were bought from Fidelity.. to retailer.. to me

however having said that..

i have 2 25's
Serial number for 25...L106184
Serial number for 25...L103816

Serial number for 33....gone...fell off


i noticed something else Nick

look at the lower left corner of the backside of your lil chesster boxes
on my 33 there is some sort of reference number...511.1305AO1
on my 25 the number is 511.1319AO1
a number higher(i.e. later)


Ill leave the heavy lifting analysis to you Regards
Steve

[spacious_mind]

i noticed something else Nick

look at the lower left corner of the backside of your lil chesster boxes
on my 33 there is some sort of reference number...511.1305AO1
on my 25 the number is 511.1319AO1
a number higher(i.e. later)


Ill leave the heavy lifting analysis to you Regards
Steve

Yes I just looked at the 32 level box and it has the same 511.1305A01

Regards

[Steve B]

i noticed something else Nick

look at the lower left corner of the backside of your lil chesster boxes
on my 33 there is some sort of reference number...511.1305AO1
on my 25 the number is 511.1319AO1
a number higher(i.e. later)


Ill leave the heavy lifting analysis to you Regards
Steve

Yes I just looked at the 32 level box and it has the same 511.1305A01

Regards

check my prior post again
i added the serial number for a second 25 i remembered i have

Editing Regards
Steve

[spacious_mind]

i noticed something else Nick

look at the lower left corner of the backside of your lil chesster boxes
on my 33 there is some sort of reference number...511.1305AO1
on my 25 the number is 511.1319AO1
a number higher(i.e. later)


Ill leave the heavy lifting analysis to you Regards
Steve

Yes I just looked at the 32 level box and it has the same 511.1305A01

Regards

check my prior post again
i added the serial number for a second 25 i remembered i have

Editing Regards
Steve

My suspicion is if Mike confirms his is a 32 Level that they were made the same week as your second serial number is even closer to Mike's 32 Level.

I believe the ones without a serial number might be a second batch run maybe later or earlier who knows, if Mike's Serial is for the 32 Level.

BTW... the box could indicate that the thought for 32 Level came first. I just wonder what made them do a 25 Level unless they wanted something that separated them from what they planned to sell through Sharper Image. But then why also do an Excalibur 25 level and then in 1992 sell the 25 level to Radio Shack.

Production, ROMs indicates they build them at the same time. Perhaps they had to get rid of a couple of thousand wrongly printed manuals and boxes

I don't know.....

Regards