HIARCS Chess Forums Forum Index HIARCS Chess Forums
World Championship winning computer chess software program & downloads for chess database, analysis and play on PC, Mac and iPhone
 
 QuestionsQuestions   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Private MessagesPrivate Messages   Log inLog in 

YoYo's Fidelity Serial Number Theory
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    HIARCS Chess Forums Forum Index -> Main Lobby / General Discussions
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author
spacious_mind
Senior Member


Joined: 01 Aug 2007
Posts: 2967
Location: Alabama

PostPosted: Sat Apr 01, 2017 6:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

yoyo_chessboard wrote:
i still don't know what exactly to think about 1990-1991.

today i looked at the photos i made some weeks ago of the kishon chesster N░ 00086095
it is a 6120G and not a 6127, and running at 3.58 Mhz.
i have not any idea of the differences between 6120G and 6127, if any.

what is sure is that the label of th eprom has :
most of the 74xx IC are from 9013 to 9023.

but kishon chesster ROM has that label : v2.6 1/14/91.
and the PROM itself has datecode 9101.

so we could imagine that that kishon is from early 1991.


Yep after 1989 its hard to know. maybe all the 000's are 1991 prior to August where the Zip changed and nothing was made in 1990. Smile

ps.. One thing is for sure, all the 000's have to fit between January 1990 and before the beginning of ZIP 33172 Smile Fidelity was not expanding they were getting smaller and about to be closed down by Mephisto....

Best regards
_________________
Nick
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
yoyo_chessboard
Member


Joined: 17 Oct 2016
Posts: 90
Location: South of France - cote d'azur

PostPosted: Sat Apr 01, 2017 7:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i am also annoyed with my second chesster , this one:

chesster challenger 6120 serial 02851710

date code suggests it could be from a friday in week 41 of 1990.

but the ROM has a datecode of 9131 and the newest IC has a datecode of 9140.
all IC are directly soldered on pcb, so no upgrade was done before i opened it.

so that board is from 1991 and that breaks the rule for 1990/1991.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
spacious_mind
Senior Member


Joined: 01 Aug 2007
Posts: 2967
Location: Alabama

PostPosted: Sat Apr 01, 2017 7:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

yoyo_chessboard wrote:
i am also annoyed with my second chesster , this one:

chesster challenger 6120 serial 02851710

date code suggests it could be from a friday in week 41 of 1990.

but the ROM has a datecode of 9131 and the newest IC has a datecode of 9140.
all IC are directly soldered on pcb, so no upgrade was done before i opened it.

so that board is from 1991 and that breaks the rule for 1990/1991.


How do we know that the board was actually made in 1991? For example automobiles they have the new Model Year in August of the previous year at Dealerships so a good quantity must be built between March and July to have enough ready for sales launch in August. So a 2017 model year is actually built as early as about March 2016?

Best regards
_________________
Nick


Last edited by spacious_mind on Sat Apr 01, 2017 7:14 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
yoyo_chessboard
Member


Joined: 17 Oct 2016
Posts: 90
Location: South of France - cote d'azur

PostPosted: Sat Apr 01, 2017 7:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

spacious_mind wrote:
yoyo_chessboard wrote:
i still don't know what exactly to think about 1990-1991.

today i looked at the photos i made some weeks ago of the kishon chesster N░ 00086095
it is a 6120G and not a 6127, and running at 3.58 Mhz.
i have not any idea of the differences between 6120G and 6127, if any.

what is sure is that the label of th eprom has :
most of the 74xx IC are from 9013 to 9023.

but kishon chesster ROM has that label : v2.6 1/14/91.
and the PROM itself has datecode 9101.

so we could imagine that that kishon is from early 1991.


Yep after 1989 its hard to know. maybe all the 000's are 1991 prior to August where the Zip changed and nothing was made in 1990. Smile

ps.. One thing is for sure, all the 000's have to fit between January 1990 and before the beginning of ZIP 33172 Smile Fidelity was not expanding they were getting smaller and about to be closed down by Mephisto....

Best regards


33172 seems to be also the postal code of Excalibur.
so it is probably the latest adress of the fidelity we know.
i have not historical knowledge and don't know how long the two societies were up together :was it only some weeks or for a longer period ?
what is sure is that 33172 postal code is the last adress of fidelity before the definitive close.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
yoyo_chessboard
Member


Joined: 17 Oct 2016
Posts: 90
Location: South of France - cote d'azur

PostPosted: Sat Apr 01, 2017 7:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

spacious_mind wrote:
yoyo_chessboard wrote:
i am also annoyed with my second chesster , this one:

chesster challenger 6120 serial 02851710

date code suggests it could be from a friday in week 41 of 1990.

but the ROM has a datecode of 9131 and the newest IC has a datecode of 9140.
all IC are directly soldered on pcb, so no upgrade was done before i opened it.

so that board is from 1991 and that breaks the rule for 1990/1991.


How do we know that the board was actually made in 1991? For example automobiles they have the new Model Year in August of the previous year at Dealerships so a good quantity must be built between March and July to have enough ready for sales launch in August. So a 2017 model year is actually built as early as about March 2016?

Best regards

i made a mistake :
i wanted to say that the ROM has datecode 9140 and not 9040 as written previously .
more precisely :
ROM has datecode 9131 (101-1091B02) and TTL 74xx are from 9021 to 9140.

thanks for your clever remark.


Last edited by yoyo_chessboard on Sat Apr 01, 2017 7:20 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
spacious_mind
Senior Member


Joined: 01 Aug 2007
Posts: 2967
Location: Alabama

PostPosted: Sat Apr 01, 2017 7:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

yoyo_chessboard wrote:
spacious_mind wrote:
yoyo_chessboard wrote:
i still don't know what exactly to think about 1990-1991.

today i looked at the photos i made some weeks ago of the kishon chesster N░ 00086095
it is a 6120G and not a 6127, and running at 3.58 Mhz.
i have not any idea of the differences between 6120G and 6127, if any.

what is sure is that the label of th eprom has :
most of the 74xx IC are from 9013 to 9023.

but kishon chesster ROM has that label : v2.6 1/14/91.
and the PROM itself has datecode 9101.

so we could imagine that that kishon is from early 1991.


Yep after 1989 its hard to know. maybe all the 000's are 1991 prior to August where the Zip changed and nothing was made in 1990. Smile

ps.. One thing is for sure, all the 000's have to fit between January 1990 and before the beginning of ZIP 33172 Smile Fidelity was not expanding they were getting smaller and about to be closed down by Mephisto....

Best regards


33172 seems to be also the postal code of Excalibur.
so it is probably the latest adress of the fidelity we know.
i have not historical knowledge and don't know how long the two societies were up together :was it only some weeks or for a longer period ?
what is sure is that 33172 postal code is the last adress of fidelity before the definitive close.


Yes I know, it is also why I really don't believe that fidelity made any good computers at all in 1991. They people were already scheming on how to get Excalibur started.. They were not interested in Mephisto/Fidelity, they probably ran it into the ground deliberately in the end Smile

Best regards
_________________
Nick
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Mike Watters
Member


Joined: 26 Sep 2008
Posts: 213
Location: Milton Keynes

PostPosted: Sat Apr 01, 2017 11:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

spacious_mind wrote:

Now with this list, I am sure that Mike is not going to be too happy with me, as I think I have turned the UK Timeline list upside down Smile

If you look at the above list you will see immediately that Miami in 1990 focused primarily on the more expensive computers. This was done at a time when the demand for chess computers was declining and people just did not want to spend those high prices on them anymore when for a few dollars more they could buy a good pc and have a good selection of chess software to play on them.

The new decade also forced a change in the serial numbers which at first we thought were a continuation from the 80's where the 1st digit was the year followed by 2nd, 3rd and 4th digits being the day count of the year. However when you try that you will quickly see that for 1990 it doesn't work as everything would have been built in a few days in January and nothing else was built for the rest of the year. For the same reason, the week count does not work well either as almost everything would have been serialized in the 1st quarter of 1990 and almost nothing for the rest of the year.

So that left a month count to look at, which I am showing above. Here is how I think Fidelity may have done their Miami serials through 1990.

1) In the 1st week or the first day or so, they continued with the day count hence SteveB's computer follows the 1980' pattern by being serialized on Friday, January 5, 1990.
2) They then changed to a month count were the 1st digit after the 3 zeros is the Month.
3) By the time month September came along they may have decided that the month count does not work anymore and they reverted back to week numbers as you can see with the Chesster Challenger and some leftover Designer 2000's.

So there it is, this theory does mess up the UK timeline for the years 1990 to 1992 Smile. Also when you look at the above, please consider that the zip codes are all 33014, therefore a Premiere previously shown for 1992 could not have been built in 1992 as Premiere would have then had a zip code of 33172 which of course is not the case.

Anyway I hope you enjoy this alternate date theory Smile

Best regards


Hi Guys

Hey Nick I like a crazy numerical theory as much as the next chess computer geek. As for the Timeline I'll turn it upside down if you like. Very Happy

The contents might stay much the same as they are based on information published in Computer Chess Reports, Selective Search and other sources of the time, along with manufacturers brochures, dates on the chess computers, manuals, boxes, chips and any other apparently reliable source such as Hein Veldhuis's database that comes my way.

The early serials throw up some questions eg the timing of the Thermal Printer and Advanced Voice and I've tweaked the Timeline 1977-1980 on a few things. Hein Veldhuis has quite a lot of evidence for that period also. He and I don't always agree because he is quoting from mainly Dutch and German published sources, and for the Timeline I am trying to take everything relevant on board. Just one example - he has a Chess Challenger 10B sold in the Netherlands in 1978 - which doesn't fit with your date of 1979.

The YDDDSSSS serials are very useful for insight into how Fidelity operated, timing of production runs and sometimes the numbers produced.
I shall go through them, try to reconcile all the evidence and adjust the Timeline as necessary.

As for 1990/92 there is probably already enough material around to write a detailed history of what was happening with Fidelity, Mephisto and Excalibur at that time. However the serials are an interesting puzzle. A theory which places the Designer Mach IV before the Designer Mach III and the Chesster Phantom Eyeball before the Chesster Phantom isn't working for me. Shocked

BTW looking for more info on the Chicago to Miami move I came across these words by Stephen Schwartz 'Pity The Poor Chess Computer Buyer' -
"Ads appeared in papers and magazines all over the country, and over a quarter million people made the decision to purchase Chess Challenger "7". Fidelity Electronics, then located in Chicago, began bursting at the seams as did their bank account, and the decision was made to build a huge, beautiful factory in Miami, Florida, where their supply could better keep up with the incredible demand. The timing of the move was unfortunate, for it interfered with Christmas sales because the interruption caused by the move served to constrict the supply lines to retailers, and rumors have it that quality control died a quick death that 1979 Christmas season." Surely there is a date for the move somewhere?

All the best
Mike
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
spacious_mind
Senior Member


Joined: 01 Aug 2007
Posts: 2967
Location: Alabama

PostPosted: Sun Apr 02, 2017 3:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mike Watters wrote:

As for 1990/92 there is probably already enough material around to write a detailed history of what was happening with Fidelity, Mephisto and Excalibur at that time. However the serials are an interesting puzzle. A theory which places the Designer Mach IV before the Designer Mach III and the Chesster Phantom Eyeball before the Chesster Phantom isn't working for me. Shocked

All the best
Mike


Hi Mike,

Thanks for the sharing the Steve Schwarz insights. I would guess that you can normally add 3 to 6 months to any computer time stamps and about 3 months to the serial numbers before the computers reached the store shelves. But considering there was such a demand for them before the end of 1979, they may have also rushed everything out the moment they built them.

So normally if you take Berger's date code of 7922 which is the work week ending on Friday, June 1, 1979 you would be able to add about 3 months to that date. You also have 49,423 items that are unaccounted for between his serial number in Chicago and the first serial number we have for Miami. So to be more exact we would need to find some more serial numbers between 197,294 and 246,717.

Regarding the years 1990 - 1992, I don't disagree with you with regards to the dates that they were sold and are referenced in your timetable and everywhere else.

But I do think that all the serial numbers starting with 000 would have had to have been completed prior to moving to the Excalibur address of 33172, therefore I think Premiere becomes a bit of struggle with the 1992 date.

What is surprising however if you look closely at the 000 sequence and ignore the Model #, you will see that the sequence as in the chart I posted runs perfectly starting with 00047758 and ending with 00097410. You just have to ignore the Chesster Challenger who has its own sequence and the 0052 number (not a 000)

The numbering sequence is in perfect order and to achieve that by chance would mean that you have a better chance of winning a jackpot in a lottery. Every single Model number in that sequence continues with the count upwards where the previous model left off. This can only be a sequence that someone planned. We just don't know what it means Smile

The 000 numbers between 00047758 and finishing on 00097410 are in perfect order with no overlap of numbers between Models. That is a count of 28 serial numbers in absolute sequence, but where the model that we are used to seeing is completely out of sequence. This means that there must have been some logic to the madness. I think we are just not smart enough to figure out Fidelity's madness. Smile

Here is what it looks like by sorting it by the model number:



Now we are back to perfect Model Number harmony but complete serial number gobbledygook.

Best regards
_________________
Nick
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
spacious_mind
Senior Member


Joined: 01 Aug 2007
Posts: 2967
Location: Alabama

PostPosted: Sun Apr 02, 2017 12:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

At the bottom of the post I am attaching the xls spreadsheet that I resorted Yoyo's hard collecting work and added a few more that I had. Hopefully you can use it for your own sorting and further research.

Below are also the serials that I sorted for the years 1981 to 1989.

Fidelity Serialization 1981 - 1983



Fidelity Serialization 1984 - 1986



Fidelity Serialization 1987 - 1989



Unlike the years before 1980 and the years after 1989, you are able to pinpoint with complete accuracy the date that your computer had finished production and was serialized, with the exception of a very few one off specially built computers.

Below you can download the xls spreadsheet. The spreadsheet has 4 tabs for the 3 different serialization periods plus a tab for the Fidelity imports.

http://spacious-mind.com/forum_reports/test_instructions/fidelity_serials.xlsx

Best regards
_________________
Nick
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Mike Watters
Member


Joined: 26 Sep 2008
Posts: 213
Location: Milton Keynes

PostPosted: Sun Apr 02, 2017 2:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

spacious_mind wrote:

But I do think that all the serial numbers starting with 000 would have had to have been completed prior to moving to the Excalibur address of 33172, therefore I think Premiere becomes a bit of struggle with the 1992 date.


Hi Nick

Regular reporting of the introduction of top-end models was established and fairly reliable from the mid/late 80s onwards. However non-Fidelity/Mephisto/Novag/Saitek models and the cheapest and weakest were often overlooked or ignored, so admittedly they can be harder to date accurately.

Larry Kaufman's first mention of the Elite Premiere is at the end of 1991, in the 1991/1992 Computer Chess Reports Vol.2 No.3. Eric Hallsworth's first mention is in the 1992 April/May edition of Selective Search when after noting the spec he says "Probably to be called the Elite Premiere, this may sell for around ú849". Results start being reported from the USA and UK in the June/July edition. I couldn't find any reference to it in any of the 1991 Fidelity brochures. It appears in some 1992 brochures. On what I know it seems that Spring 1992 is a solid release date for the Elite Premiere.

There must have been times when there was a significant lag between manufacture of the first of a model and availability to the public. Accumulation of sufficient stock, timing of the announcement and publicity, aiming for the Christmas sales period etc. The Timeline attempts to date when the chess computers first became available to the public. So there will be always be some differences with manufacturing/serial dates.

When Mephisto took over Fidelity it is said that there was a substantial discrepancy between what Mephisto thought they had bought and what they found in Fidelity's warehouse. Perhaps there was a major delay while Mephisto sorted things out? However it takes some believing that Fidelity manufactured Elite Premieres in 1990 (including the 1991 Vancouver World Championship programme!!), and then they didn't ship them to retailers for two years.

It beats me regards
Mike
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
spacious_mind
Senior Member


Joined: 01 Aug 2007
Posts: 2967
Location: Alabama

PostPosted: Sun Apr 02, 2017 2:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mike Watters wrote:
spacious_mind wrote:

But I do think that all the serial numbers starting with 000 would have had to have been completed prior to moving to the Excalibur address of 33172, therefore I think Premiere becomes a bit of struggle with the 1992 date.


Hi Nick

Regular reporting of the introduction of top-end models was established and fairly reliable from the mid/late 80s onwards. However non-Fidelity/Mephisto/Novag/Saitek models and the cheapest and weakest were often overlooked or ignored, so admittedly they can be harder to date accurately.

Larry Kaufman's first mention of the Elite Premiere is at the end of 1991, in the 1991/1992 Computer Chess Reports Vol.2 No.3. Eric Hallsworth's first mention is in the 1992 April/May edition of Selective Search when after noting the spec he says "Probably to be called the Elite Premiere, this may sell for around ú849". Results start being reported from the USA and UK in the June/July edition. I couldn't find any reference to it in any of the 1991 Fidelity brochures. It appears in some 1992 brochures. On what I know it seems that Spring 1992 is a solid release date for the Elite Premiere.

There must have been times when there was a significant lag between manufacture of the first of a model and availability to the public. Accumulation of sufficient stock, timing of the announcement and publicity, aiming for the Christmas sales period etc. The Timeline attempts to date when the chess computers first became available to the public. So there will be always be some differences with manufacturing/serial dates.

When Mephisto took over Fidelity it is said that there was a substantial discrepancy between what Mephisto thought they had bought and what they found in Fidelity's warehouse. Perhaps there was a major delay while Mephisto sorted things out? However it takes some believing that Fidelity manufactured Elite Premieres in 1990 (including the 1991 Vancouver World Championship programme!!), and then they didn't ship them to retailers for two years.

It beats me regards
Mike


Hi Mike,

I agree and I know Vancouver WM was in May 1991 Smile It also possible that Mephisto delayed approval to release Premiere because of its Vancouver program so that they could exclusively enjoy its success under the Mephisto brand.

From the 1990 sequences it is possible that Chesster was the last one built under the normal Fidelity Serialization and the 000's all started sometime (after Chesster) end of 1990/1991 but were serialized in order of the Model that came to the table first. ie.. a minimal production to complete what was left. Hence the orderly Serial pattern.

Maybe Mephisto placed a production stop in 1990 and then saw all the work in progress parts and pieces and decided to complete what was left after they had ordered this production stop sometime later.

BTW...Designer Master 2265 shows up first in 1989. The ones showing later could be completion of incomplete work in progress stuff. Saying that because you found it hard to see a 2325 ahead of a 2265 in an earlier post.

Another BTW... it also seems that the Designer 2100 was built ahead of 1500's and 2000's, but that could also be because of insufficient serials that have been collected Smile

Best regards
_________________
Nick
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
spacious_mind
Senior Member


Joined: 01 Aug 2007
Posts: 2967
Location: Alabama

PostPosted: Sun Apr 02, 2017 3:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I also think it is possible contrary of how we are told what to believe, that Mephisto based on business practices that happen all the time, their only reason to buy Fidelity was to remove a competition so they worked on that strategy but of course they would never tell you that.

Because it is strange at how much was produced in 1988 and how starting in 1989 Fidelity was only allowed to produce the more expensive products. Other than the Designer 1500 nothing for the mass market was made. Of course it is easy to blame Fidelity for not meeting expectations if that is your mindset from the outset Smile Of course Mephisto had engineers to oversee Fidelity in the U.S. but those engineers did not seem to be doing much Smile

So maybe it was a deliberate run down of Fidelity which also failed because Mephisto's US market presence did not really increase for their own products. Could be a deliberate run down of Fidelity and of course US Management push back by Fidelity in coming on board with Mephisto US strategy.

Things are not always as they seem or officially publicized. Ask a politician Smile

Best regards
_________________
Nick
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Berger
Member


Joined: 08 Sep 2013
Posts: 44
Full Name: Gerardo M.
Location: Barcelona (CATALONIA)

PostPosted: Sun Apr 02, 2017 3:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

spacious_mind wrote:

So maybe it was a deliberate run down of Fidelity which also failed because Mephisto's US market presence did not really increase for their own products. Could be a deliberate run down of Fidelity and of course US Management push back by Fidelity in coming on board with Mephisto US strategy.

Things are not always as they seem or officially publicized. Ask a politician Smile

It's amazing... this thread is getting more and more interesting! LOL Very Happy

Regards,
Berger
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
spacious_mind
Senior Member


Joined: 01 Aug 2007
Posts: 2967
Location: Alabama

PostPosted: Sun Apr 02, 2017 4:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Berger wrote:
spacious_mind wrote:

So maybe it was a deliberate run down of Fidelity which also failed because Mephisto's US market presence did not really increase for their own products. Could be a deliberate run down of Fidelity and of course US Management push back by Fidelity in coming on board with Mephisto US strategy.

Things are not always as they seem or officially publicized. Ask a politician Smile

It's amazing... this thread is getting more and more interesting! LOL Very Happy

Regards,
Berger


Yep, I think Mephisto was more worried about this big range of beautiful wooden and plastic machines that developed a fan base in Germany and they couldn't stand it. So they bought Fidelity and shut it down Smile

I mean just look at all the beautiful machines that came out between 1981 and 1988 which everyone in Germany wanted. Mephisto hated it!! Smile

Best regards
_________________
Nick
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Mike Watters
Member


Joined: 26 Sep 2008
Posts: 213
Location: Milton Keynes

PostPosted: Mon Apr 03, 2017 12:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

spacious_mind wrote:
I also think it is possible contrary of how we are told what to believe, that Mephisto based on business practices that happen all the time, their only reason to buy Fidelity was to remove a competition so they worked on that strategy but of course they would never tell you that.

Because it is strange at how much was produced in 1988 and how starting in 1989 Fidelity was only allowed to produce the more expensive products. Other than the Designer 1500 nothing for the mass market was made. Of course it is easy to blame Fidelity for not meeting expectations if that is your mindset from the outset Smile Of course Mephisto had engineers to oversee Fidelity in the U.S. but those engineers did not seem to be doing much Smile

So maybe it was a deliberate run down of Fidelity which also failed because Mephisto's US market presence did not really increase for their own products. Could be a deliberate run down of Fidelity and of course US Management push back by Fidelity in coming on board with Mephisto US strategy.

Things are not always as they seem or officially publicized. Ask a politician Smile

Best regards


Hi Nick

Now let me understand this theory of yours.

So Sid Samole is still in charge of Fidelity from the moment it was sold to Mephisto (H & G) in 1989 until he is replaced by a German on 1st September 1991. Running it, we are told (?), like an independent company. However through 1990 and 1991 all the time Sid is really overseeing the destruction of his company, as he is in cahoots with Mephisto.
The purpose is to destroy the competition Fidelity used to provide in Germany and to leave the US market wide open for Mephisto. Twisted Evil
A sort of joint suicide mission, handing the market over to Saitek a while later. Success!! Which then leaves the way wide open for Excalibur to sell lots of cheap Chinese stuff, as if it were made in the USA. Cunning. Very Happy

(Computer Chess Reports 1991 Vol.2 No2)

Dazed regards
Mike
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    HIARCS Chess Forums Forum Index -> Main Lobby / General Discussions All times are GMT
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7  Next
Page 5 of 7

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group
Protected by Anti-Spam ACP