The Fads and Fashions for Dedicated Chess Computers

[paulhuk]

Hi Guys,

Would you believe it, a mere four years go by and already the Revelation ii seems but a postscript to the newest kid not he block. What happened to all that glowing appreciation and ecstatic pride in owning the best dedicated chess computer in existence? You may think I’m exaggerating….well maybe just a little but here are some of the more frothy and tasty quotes,

‘It is a beautiful machine’..... 'Its a lovely machine' Ifekali,

'I'm a few weeks into Revelation II ownership and it has to be said it's made the rest of my collection second rate to play against. All of my collection bar the Rev are now in deep storage,' Wardy

'I think the design and appearance of the board is magnificent,' Steve B

‘Can't imagine ever outgrowing this wonderful machine’. Me

‘To be able to play current AND classical engines on a large.. beautifully made wooden board..with beautiful wooden hand made pieces ..in quiet solitude.’ Steve B

‘I can certainly say that this is the best and most beautiful chess computer ever. Rudd has done a fantastic job:’ Chesspcmac

I could go on of course but I’m sure you get the picture. Fast forward to today and what do we find? As far as I can make out the picture of the Revelation ii is more muted, ie aspects of an expensive machine that are clunky and confusing, a non purist device that falls between the desire to capture past classics and represent the best of current chess programmes doing neither full justice. This last point has not been spelt out in this way but it is something I have kind of inferred from some of the more nostalgic references on the board. So where is some of this coming from? The answer is a bit deeper than you might think. But the catalyst is probably time (ie 4years) to find out the real positives and negatives and more recently the afterglow of a new contender……the Millennium Chess Genius Exclusive or MCGP for short. Reaction to this new pretender is a little surprising especially as the main programme is well ‘seasoned’. Also, one of the key protagonists here is our own Steve B. A colossus in the world of dedicated chess computer collecting and no stranger to the long line of Lang contributions….how could he?

Lets start with the Rev ii emulations. It is a fact that these are not straightforward to operate and they do take time and patience to get the hang of…..lots of patience actually. Chesspcmac, an early adopter of the Rev ii struggled with the confusions of the emulation menu’s. Steve B’ responded encouragingly at the time with the following,

‘It takes a little practice but you will get it.’ Steve B

Mostly I agree especially if the Rev ii owner gets the relevant manuals from Alains web site. Many thanks Alain if you are reading this. You are a life saver. But I have noticed our Steve’s head being turned towards the new Millennium and inevitably away from the dark attractions of the more complicated Rev ii and its special emulations. Have a look at the following,

‘The whole issue of dedicated chess computer emulations leaves me a bit queasy
I have the dedicated computer emulation packages for the Res I and II and I can tell you its nothing like having the real computer in front of you..not even close..in fact i didnt even bother buying the new Tasc/Saitek Risc emulations for the RES II because i knew i would hardly ever use it..just too different ..almost annoying..even painful .. to play with it ...the keyboard configurations are not intuitive and are frustrating..almost like a Chinese Finger Trap Puzzle

Nothing Replaces The Real Thing Regards
Steve B’

Ouch!!! What happened to the tranquil playing of Classics across a beautiful wooden board? Unfortunately Steve’s spurning of the older model/models doesn’t end there. The whole package now seems to have completely lost its lustre and wondrous appeal.

‘You know Dave....there is something about the MCGE that I find strangely compelling. I don’t usually keep one computer on my desk very long as I am constantly rotating them in and out ..testing and playing them..making sure they are still working
I had the Res I and Res II out about a month each before I switched to a different computer..same for the MCG and MCGP..but for some inexplicable reason I still have the MCGE out since the first day I got it(7+ months now)..I cant seem to bring myself to box it up and move on,

Perplexed Regards
Steve’


Oh Steve, how could you be so ghastly and beastly!!! Long pause. So. resisting the urge to storm off, wash my hair and have a reassuring game on the Res ii, how are we to explain Steve’s treachery and morally reprehensible promiscuity for which Steve himself seems perplexed? I will embark on an exploration of some of these issues in my next post should there be sufficient interest. If you think I have been picking on Steve then you are, of course, absolutely right. Suffice it to say, his opinions on this board are of a very high calibre most often clearly and honestly expressed. And I do hope he won’t mind me using him as a device for raising issues about the various merits and problems with these incredible machines and how they influence our fascination with them and I do of course include the MCGP in that estimation. Until the next post…..

[Steve B]

And I do hope he won’t mind me using him as a device for raising issues about the various merits and problems with these incredible machines and how they influence our fascination with them and I do of course include the MCGP in that estimation. Until the next post…..

Interesting post
of course i dont mind being used as a sounding board
i stand by my comments at the time and i stand by them now
i still think the Res ll is a magnificently beautiful board but i have grown tired of the Emulation keyboard ..one does get used to it...IF...you play it everyday
put the computer away for a few months and your back to square one of the learning curve with the keyboard...just got tired of re-learning the same thing all over again..
i am however still enjoying the MCGE but i do admit i have finally boxed it up and set up a Mobile Master as my work-a-day computer
gotta love its wooden elegance and simple operation.. plug it in and just play
now in an effort of full disclosure..(and because you will probably find the following in your excellent forum research here...)
i have bitterly complained about the Mobile M in the past due to its abysmal 0-5 performance in the 2009 Paris Tournament

Conflicted Regards
Steve

[TracySMiller]

The Revelation boards are indeed things of beauty and strength, but let's be brutally honest: you can get free chess engines that are among the strongest on the planet, and play them on your phone, tablet, or laptop, and transfer the moves to your favorite tournament board for several thousand fewer dollars. They continue to be a very niche kind of product, in the same vein as the DGT boards.

[paulhuk]

Thanks Steve. You can be forgiven for picking on the mobile’s performance as it is such a drop dead gorgeous looking machine. I had the chance to own a brand new elite premier and regret letting the purchase go to this day.

Hi Tracy, what you say is true for chess players with one whopping caveat. It does not feel natural to go from entering moves into a display and then transcribing them onto a board. It kind of makes my head spin and I feel as if my attention is divided. The beauty of an auto response chess computer is that exciting sense of playing an opponent ‘over the board’ as it were. I guess you could get used to the process of going from one to the other but I would still argue that it is a world away from ARB and smart board chess.

Auto Response regards,

Paulh

[paulhuk]

Well, back again for part II. I want to start by wrestling with the financial elephant in the room, namely the sheer expense of owning an auto response type board. I would argue there are two main effects at work. The first is that those of us who have made such an investment are probably more likely to be forgiving of its shortcomings (one exception being Steve B of course) and defensive of those who attack its virtues. I know I feel this acutely about my Res II. The problem is that defending in this way leads into the second effect, the sentiment was hinted at in Tracy’s previous post. Spelt out it would run like this, ‘well after spending all that money you would try to justify it wouldn’t you. Most people are happy with apps and PC’s’. I think this also gives the advantage to smaller AR boards that are cheaper. One example is the now discontinued Novak Citrine, another is the current MCGE, which costs less than a fifth the price of a Res I or Res II. You could also include some of the DGT offerings although none are auto response boards as such. And even here many people are probably put off by the price. In other words price can strongly affect the perception and value of a chess machine in comparison to others. The worst case being an envious attitude that deliberately seeks to undermine the value of a machine that is well out of reach. However in my experience most people on this forum seem to hold onto a healthy admiration for unobtainable chess machines and their owners.

Overall, the enthusiasm for the MCGE seems to have overridden price objections as far as I can tell and has already garnered a loyal following. From my Res II bunker, the thought of owning yet another iteration of a Richard Lang programme leaves me feeling a bit queasy. So I concluded there must be something else at work and I think an important element may be ‘idealising the new’. There is a saying that boys never grow out of their toys, the toys just keep getting more expensive, especially the new ones. And it may be that this ‘aura of newness’ combined with genuinely desirable features propels the initial popularity and wonder of the new machine. Reading people’s accounts of the MCGE I started to feel that familiar urge join the party, to purchase a chess machine whose virtues I could share with others and might just provide that elusive ultimate degree of satisfaction. After all if Steve B can be entranced and spellbound by it for months then........

But hold your horses, the Res II was also subject to the new wonderment before its gleam became tarnished. I remember feeling I had joined an elite group of chess owning excellence where we could indulge in our anticipation of and passion for the wonder machine, smugly viewing YouTube demo’s, swapping stories of how marvellous it all was. Heady days...sigh. I do think that the worth of a chess machine can only be fully appreciated in retrospect, when we have all calmed down, the machine is no longer new and after thorough testing etc has been carried out and discussed. When machines fall into this bracket I think they may become less susceptible to the slings and arrows of outrageous fad and fashion. They can be both criticised and appreciated in a more dispassionate and objective manner. At least that is the hope.
Not easy to respond to all of this but do feel free to comment especially if you disagree.

Whimsical regards

PaulH

[alynch4047]

Loving the analysis Paul, very entertaining, enlightening even

[Four.nine]

You could also include some of the DGT offerings although none are auto response boards as such.

Hello Paul,

Not quite sure what the above statement means...that is:

The DGT offering that I own is a DGT eBoard that is auto-sensory (and on top of that, piece recognition, wireless AND good workmanship in wood).
Additionally, the DGT includes AT LEAST 6 (maybe a couple more) selectable programs that would likely beat any GM in any match.

Regards,
4.9

PS. I am not on a DGT high either. There are a considerable amount of annoying little bugs that I would like fixed that drop my overall DGT Pi rating to a B+ or maybe A-. However, when working correctly, it is ABSOLUTELY brutal and the most unsympathetic inanimate object I have ever dealt with (not once has it ever been "nice" to me).

[paulhuk]

Hi alynch4047, many thanks, it’s been fun writing about it😀

Hi Four.nine, in about 1978 I bought the Sargon 2.5 auto response board. The key thing for me at that time was the red lights that lit up the corner of the wooden squares directing the computers response. It was amazing to me and all the guys I played chess with. Since then I guess auto response has always meant squares with lights. DGT boards are smart boards with peice recognition but no lights. They rely instead on a read out or voice command but no ‘lit’ auto response. At least that’s my take on it. I have no idea if that is the accepted definition. Maybe someone else can shed light on it.

Pedantic regards,

PaulH

[southernlights]

I was making a list of chess computers I'd like to own and realized that if bought them I'd easily have the price of a Revelation II plus much more. For instance I own a Mephisto Polgar and MCGE already. That is almost half-way to the price. If I add the MCGE bluetooth and King engine that's just more money into the hole.

As a result I have looked again at the Rev II. I would get modern engines, plus emulations of older engines.

It seems the menu system is of course going to be a jack of all trades as each emulation needs different keys. But I get the auto response board, the ability to play bluetooth online, and so many engines I'll never get bored.

I will keep my Mephisto Polgar as I like it too much to part with it. But I'd consider selling my MCGE to help fund the purchase of the Rev II.

What is the final word on the Rev II? Instead of owning 3-4 older computers/Mephisto modules I can own one Rev II and play them the same. Is that just a dream or is there some
reality there if I don't want to fill my room with chess computers?

Maybe some long-time owners can give me their opinions and advice now that the new car smell was worn off.

Debating emulations vs. the real thing regards.

[Steve B]

But I get the auto response board, the ability to play bluetooth online, and so many engines I'll never get bored.

This is a matter of personal taste really
but i think its possible you could get bored
you will have many engines but you will be playing on the same board with the same pieces over and over.. day after day
i am still very pleased with my Rev II but IMHO the emulations in no way replace the real modules or computers
the engines might be the same but having the original modules and/or computer(s) with different style boards and pieces just adds to the playing experience and ownership experience...IMHO

i remember well when Mephisto came out with the Dallas upgrade to the Amsterdam ...i had the choice of just upgrading the eprom in the same module casing as my Amsterdam for a much cheaper price then buying a new 3 module set .
i went for the eprom and when i got home i felt cheated
i just spent $300 and here i am playing the same computer..nothing looked or felt different not even the manual(i was given a copy of the Amsterdam manual with the word"DALLAS" printed over the word "Amsterdam " on every page it appeared)..
i contacted Mephisto in Germany and asked them to at least send me the Dallas name plate so i could replace it on the module casing
(which they did for free)

personally one of the great pleasures i get from the hobby is being able to remove one computer set up on my desk and replace it with a different one every few weeks or so
its just a different feeling when you have a different computer in front of you..

if all you are interested in is the actual chess engine then it might seem like a good idea to sell your MCGE now and buy a Rev II
but in the long run you might regret that,eventually buying another MCGE

Just My Two Cents Regards
Steve

[donkeylane]

Emulations v original dedicateds is a personal preference, and if you haven't had them both you may not be sure. I have both the Revelation 2 with the emulation package, prior to the release of the Tasc programme running at 10 mhz, and the R30v2.5 which runs at 30 mhz,I was not inclined or tempted to acquire the Tasc emulation,not because of the slower clock speed, but I do find the different computer, pieces etc keeps the interest, I have had several of the original dedicated computers in the past that the Rev2 has as emulations as well.I am pleased with the Rev2,but in hindsight of the computers I have had in the past,I believe the originals would be more likely to hold my interest. Regards Steve C.

[southernlights]

But I get the auto response board, the ability to play bluetooth online, and so many engines I'll never get bored.

This is a matter of personal taste really
but i think its possible you could get bored
you will have many engines but you will be playing on the same board with the same pieces over and over.. day after day
i am still very pleased with my Rev II but IMHO the emulations in no way replace the real modules or computers
the engines might be the same but having the original modules and/or computer(s) with different style boards and pieces just adds to the playing experience and ownership experience...IMHO

...


Just My Two Cents Regards
Steve

Thank you for the thoughtful answer. I enjoy both machines I own vastly more than playing on a computer screen of any kind.

I like bringing out the Mephisto Polgar more than the MCGE right now. Maybe it's the quality is a bit better. Or that such a well built machine is still working perfectly so many years after it's made. I also as a programmer appreciate the strength in the chess engine running on a modest 6502 8 bit processor with only 5MHz and little RAM. Yet, it can beat most players on the planet.

I have not been using the MCGE much since the Polgar showed up. When given time to play, I almost always go for the Polgar. I actually have a chance to beat it which with the MCGE on any normal level is just about impossible for me. I will be using the MCGE more, but I am thinking of getting a Vancouver module now which seems like the MCGE from years ago with almost the same Lang engine.

I will think on the Rev II. It's a big expense and the modern engines it uses are not that interesting to me as they can all fillet me in countless ways. I'm interested at this point in something with bluetooth integration and lights so I can play more online against other humans. Perhaps the MCGE is enough once they release the module. But the Rev II with the emulations remains tempting.

[southernlights]

Emulations v original dedicateds is a personal preference, and if you haven't had them both you may not be sure. I have both the Revelation 2 with the emulation package, prior to the release of the Tasc programme running at 10 mhz, and the R30v2.5 which runs at 30 mhz,I was not inclined or tempted to acquire the Tasc emulation,not because of the slower clock speed, but I do find the different computer, pieces etc keeps the interest, I have had several of the original dedicated computers in the past that the Rev2 has as emulations as well.I am pleased with the Rev2,but in hindsight of the computers I have had in the past,I believe the originals would be more likely to hold my interest. Regards Steve C.

Thank you for your answer. I understand what you are saying that each board and designer is unique and is part of the experience. I am thinking on the Rev II some more simply as a way to consolidate what I want to own. If I'm more interested in the engines vs. the entire machine experience is something I need to consider.

[paulhuk]

Hi southernlights,

I do agree that owning and using the original machines is a unique and satisfying experience that the emulations cannot capture. However, many here do not have this privilege and the emulations on the Rev II board are still pretty special in my opinion. They may not be the same but I personally have yet to tire of wonderful variety of styles and play the Rev II offers both emulated and modern. And I must say that both Hiarcs and Stockfish are examples of modern programmes I return too time and again. I do also own the venerable Sargon 2.5 ARB and the 16 bit Mephisto Lyon Exclusive. Sargon comes with a lovely board and also with a somewhat weak programme even for me. The Exclusive is fun and very appealing to play on. But I soon find I miss the grand tournament size of the Rev II, that terrific variety of play and my BCE stage one pieces. So if you do decide to go with the Rev II and emulations I have made a series of crib sheets that simplifies their operation. Let me know and I will send you the file.

RevII rules regards

Paul H

[southernlights]

Hi southernlights,

I do agree that owning and using the original machines is a unique and satisfying experience that the emulations cannot capture. However, many here do not have this privilege and the emulations on the Rev II board are still pretty special in my opinion. They may not be the same but I personally have yet to tire of wonderful variety of styles and play the Rev II offers both emulated and modern. And I must say that both Hiarcs and Stockfish are examples of modern programmes I return too time and again. I do also own the venerable Sargon 2.5 ARB and the 16 bit Mephisto Lyon Exclusive. Sargon comes with a lovely board and also with a somewhat weak programme even for me. The Exclusive is fun and very appealing to play on. But I soon find I miss the grand tournament size of the Rev II, that terrific variety of play and my BCE stage one pieces. So if you do decide to go with the Rev II and emulations I have made a series of crib sheets that simplifies their operation. Let me know and I will send you the file.

RevII rules regards

Paul H

Thanks for your answer. Please send me your crib sheet in PM.

Also, say for an emulation like the Vancouver or London. Does the emulation allow you to save games, piece values, etc. like the Vancouver/London module would? Are they actually full emulations?