Human versus Machine

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Lyudmil Tsvetkov
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Post by Lyudmil Tsvetkov »

I forgot to say that, this time around, all diagrams are accompanied by fens, so it will be possible to check the lines with your engines.
Lyudmil Tsvetkov
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Post by Lyudmil Tsvetkov »

One thing I forgot to mention is games in all 3 parts have been played with ponder=on, so this somewhat decreases the time difference, but I guess, especially for closed positions, the effect would be rather small, as engines would be pondering mostly the wrong moves.

I have always wondered what the effect of ponder on game play is, I presume rather insignificant.
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Stockfish and Fischer

Post by Lyudmil Tsvetkov »

I will post this here, as it has some relevance to computer chess and human-engine competition.

After doing an extensive study of the Fischer game collection, with the help of Stockfish, I just published a book on the theme:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B078N ... _rd_i=4406

While going through the positional test suite, including 112 test positions, I had to ascertain that Stockfish still fails to solve around one third, but maybe even close to half of the puzzles. With the tactical set, Stockfish has no problems at all, all solved.

Make the conclusions yourselves how weak actually Stockfish is and how strong Fischer.

So, you might just want to forget anything about alleged engine superiority in chess.
Lyudmil Tsvetkov
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Post by Lyudmil Tsvetkov »

[d]r4rk1/2q1bpp1/pn3n1p/1pp1pP2/6P1/1BP4P/PP1N1P2/R1BQR1K1 w - - 0 17

One of the positions in the positional suite SF fails to see.
17. h4 wins here.

Why would SF miss that?
Lyudmil Tsvetkov
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Post by Lyudmil Tsvetkov »

Anyone able to post diagram for above fen(I would be very grateful)?

Don't quite have the time to read all the instructions.
herO
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Post by herO »

Lyudmil Tsvetkov wrote:Anyone able to post diagram for above fen(I would be very grateful)?

Don't quite have the time to read all the instructions.
FEN:

[fen]r4rk1/2q1bpp1/pn3n1p/1pp1pP2/6P1/1BP4P/PP1N1P2/R1BQR1K1 w - - 0 17[/fen]
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spacious_mind
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Post by spacious_mind »

herO wrote:
Lyudmil Tsvetkov wrote:Anyone able to post diagram for above fen(I would be very grateful)?

Don't quite have the time to read all the instructions.
FEN:

[fen]r4rk1/2q1bpp1/pn3n1p/1pp1pP2/6P1/1BP4P/PP1N1P2/R1BQR1K1 w - - 0 17[/fen]
Lyudimil,

That SF does not see it, is not really true. It sees it, it however does not see it as a best move at the beginning of its search process and therefore does not pursue it. That is really the gap with all modern engines, they cut off searching lines too soon and as a result you are right they don't see it. SF is not unique with this problem they all have this problem in one way or another.

Regards
Nick
herO
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Post by herO »

spacious_mind wrote:
herO wrote:
Lyudmil Tsvetkov wrote:Anyone able to post diagram for above fen(I would be very grateful)?

Don't quite have the time to read all the instructions.
FEN:

[fen]r4rk1/2q1bpp1/pn3n1p/1pp1pP2/6P1/1BP4P/PP1N1P2/R1BQR1K1 w - - 0 17[/fen]
Lyudimil,

That SF does not see it, is not really true. It sees it, it however does not see it as a best move at the beginning of its search process and therefore does not pursue it. That is really the gap with all modern engines, they cut off searching lines too soon and as a result you are right they don't see it. SF is not unique with this problem they all have this problem in one way or another.

Regards
Hiarcs consider move h4 after few seconds :)
Volodymyr
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Post by Volodymyr »

The chess engines do not see much many positions.

Very interesting video on Youtube GM Sergey Shipov "Do not believe the computer",unfortunately in Russian.
Some positions are bad evaluation Komodo,sometimes vice versa Stockfish or Rybka,or Fritz.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-E3eziVVezc

It's also in the topic,player about 2100 rating beats the best programs mid-2000 Chessmaster 8000,Fritz 7,Nimzo 8 and so on.
"Turkish gambit,or how to beat Chessmaster" Goncharuck (Voronezh,2006),unfortunately also in Russian.

http://www26.zippyshare.com/v/9I7b06La/file.html

Ludmil this is not the secrets of chess, it is an antecomputer strategy.This is just my opinion.
Lyudmil Tsvetkov
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Post by Lyudmil Tsvetkov »

Lyudmil Tsvetkov wrote:Anyone able to post diagram for above fen(I would be very grateful)?

Don't quite have the time to read all the instructions.
Thank you very much for posting the fen!

Would someone, please, just tell me briefly how to do it, so I am able to post those myself?

Oops, I see now the FEN option...
Lyudmil Tsvetkov
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Post by Lyudmil Tsvetkov »

spacious_mind wrote:
herO wrote:
Lyudmil Tsvetkov wrote:Anyone able to post diagram for above fen(I would be very grateful)?

Don't quite have the time to read all the instructions.
FEN:

[fen]r4rk1/2q1bpp1/pn3n1p/1pp1pP2/6P1/1BP4P/PP1N1P2/R1BQR1K1 w - - 0 17[/fen]
Lyudimil,

That SF does not see it, is not really true. It sees it, it however does not see it as a best move at the beginning of its search process and therefore does not pursue it. That is really the gap with all modern engines, they cut off searching lines too soon and as a result you are right they don't see it. SF is not unique with this problem they all have this problem in one way or another.

Regards
Hello, SpaciousMind, it should see it as winning, +200cps or so, and single winning move too.
Lyudmil Tsvetkov
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Post by Lyudmil Tsvetkov »

herO wrote:
spacious_mind wrote:
herO wrote:
Lyudmil Tsvetkov wrote:Anyone able to post diagram for above fen(I would be very grateful)?

Don't quite have the time to read all the instructions.
FEN:

[fen]r4rk1/2q1bpp1/pn3n1p/1pp1pP2/6P1/1BP4P/PP1N1P2/R1BQR1K1 w - - 0 17[/fen]
Lyudimil,

That SF does not see it, is not really true. It sees it, it however does not see it as a best move at the beginning of its search process and therefore does not pursue it. That is really the gap with all modern engines, they cut off searching lines too soon and as a result you are right they don't see it. SF is not unique with this problem they all have this problem in one way or another.

Regards
Hiarcs consider move h4 after few seconds :)
And the score is?
Lyudmil Tsvetkov
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Post by Lyudmil Tsvetkov »

Volodymyr wrote:The chess engines do not see much many positions.

Very interesting video on Youtube GM Sergey Shipov "Do not believe the computer",unfortunately in Russian.
Some positions are bad evaluation Komodo,sometimes vice versa Stockfish or Rybka,or Fritz.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-E3eziVVezc

It's also in the topic,player about 2100 rating beats the best programs mid-2000 Chessmaster 8000,Fritz 7,Nimzo 8 and so on.
"Turkish gambit,or how to beat Chessmaster" Goncharuck (Voronezh,2006),unfortunately also in Russian.

http://www26.zippyshare.com/v/9I7b06La/file.html

Ludmil this is not the secrets of chess, it is an antecomputer strategy.This is just my opinion.
Fritz 7 and Nimzo 8 are eeasy. :)
Try to do the same now with latest SF, Komodo and Houdini.
Yeah, it is an anticomputer strategy, but an advanced one.
'The Secret of Chess' is something quite apart, it includes both normal and specific anticomputer chess terms.
Lyudmil Tsvetkov
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Post by Lyudmil Tsvetkov »

One more very tough one, for you to enjoy(has already been posted and analysed on Talkchess, I don't know about here):
[fen]r3r1k1/pp1q1p2/2p2npb/PPPp1bnp/3PpN2/2N1P1PP/1R1B1PBK/3Q1R2 b - - 0 19[/fen]

The engine has to see 19...Bg4.
Does Hiarcs do it?

This is from Nikolic-Fischer, Vinkovci 1968
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spacious_mind
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Post by spacious_mind »

Lyudmil,

A tip with FEN posts:

r3r1k1/pp1q1p2/2p2npb/PPPp1bnp/3PpN2/2N1P1PP/1R1B1PBK/3Q1R2 b - - 0 19

What we do here is try to remember to change it even if it Black's turn to move by changing the b to w to make it easier for people to follow. So for example we post as follows:

r3r1k1/pp1q1p2/2p2npb/PPPp1bnp/3PpN2/2N1P1PP/1R1B1PBK/3Q1R2 w - - 0 19

[fen]r3r1k1/pp1q1p2/2p2npb/PPPp1bnp/3PpN2/2N1P1PP/1R1B1PBK/3Q1R2 w - - 0 19[/fen]

We have to do it this way because our Moderator hates having to stand on his head to read the FEN .... LOL :P

Regards
Nick
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