Radio Shack strength rankings

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Reinfeld
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Radio Shack strength rankings

Post by Reinfeld »

OK, I've been absent from the forum for a bit, so forgive me. I see the never-ending Radio Shack debate is burbling again, and I'm thinking it might be simplest to start a thread that nails this subject squarely, rather than wading through all the separate debates on this topic. I would lean on Nick's constant contributions, but they become so voluminous that I can't readily find the stats I'm looking for without endless searching.

I'll start. I don't own all the Radio Shack machines by any stretch, so feel free to contribute and correct me. This is my (partial) sense of the rankings at the highest level. Bear in mind that I'm less interested in the lower-ranked machines, so others will have to fill the gaps.

1. 2250XL
2. 2200X
3. Master Chess
4. Mega 2050X
5. 2150
6. 2150L
7. Chess Partner 1680X (60-2428A)

Have at it regards,

- R.
"You have, let us say, a promising politician, a rising artist that you wish to destroy. Dagger or bomb are archaic and unreliable - but teach him, inoculate him with chess."
– H.G. Wells
TracySMiller
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Post by TracySMiller »

Looks about right to me. I'm currently conducting a tournament with a lot of the Radio Shack units. I wonder where the 1900L would fit into your list? Better or worse than the 2150L? It got clobbered by the Mega 2050X 6.5-0.5 in my first round.

The exact sequence for 3-5 on your list is probably the toughest call. After this current tournament is over, I might do a Round Robin with ALL my RS units. I've got a 1750L coming to me soon to add to my collection.
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spacious_mind
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Post by spacious_mind »

TracySMiller wrote:Looks about right to me. I'm currently conducting a tournament with a lot of the Radio Shack units. I wonder where the 1900L would fit into your list? Better or worse than the 2150L? It got clobbered by the Mega 2050X 6.5-0.5 in my first round.

The exact sequence for 3-5 on your list is probably the toughest call. After this current tournament is over, I might do a Round Robin with ALL my RS units. I've got a 1750L coming to me soon to add to my collection.
1900L should be just a little better than 1680x but worse than 2150L
Nick
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Fluppio
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Post by Fluppio »

Hi,

Nick is right.

I played a 9 round tournament with the Fidelity Little Chesster, the Radioshack 1900L is identical, and the performance was 1564 ELO in active chess.

After switching the Litte Chesster on the permanent brain is missing. You have to activate it first.

Peter
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Post by TracySMiller »

Fluppio wrote:Hi,

Nick is right.

I played a 9 round tournament with the Fidelity Little Chesster, the Radioshack 1900L is identical, and the performance was 1564 ELO in active chess.

After switching the Litte Chesster on the permanent brain is missing. You have to activate it first.

Peter
Interesting. On the 1900L you have to turn on "Easy" mode to deactivate the permanent brain. How did your tournament turn out?
CompDad
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Post by CompDad »

I may be wrong, but RS Master Chess is stronger than the 2200x and possible even stronger than the 2250XL, according to informations gathered here and in the MECA forum.
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spacious_mind
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Post by spacious_mind »

CompDad wrote:I may be wrong, but RS Master Chess is stronger than the 2200x and possible even stronger than the 2250XL, according to informations gathered here and in the MECA forum.
The top 3 are quite close in strength. But I do think that 2250 XL is probably the strongest. RS2200 and Master might be a coin flip.

Regards
Nick
Four.nine
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Post by Four.nine »

I had zero interest in wasting any time joining this RS2250 fray. But it turns out that someone already.. about three years ago, wrote the exact words that reflect my opinion on this subject: ME. I have “QUICK START NOTES” in WORD documents for each of my chess computers, which allow me...well...a quick start to a game with any of those chess computers without having to grab a manual (after a long layoff) and figure out how each one works again. Here is the one for RS2250:

Radio Shack 2250XL Quick Start 8/20/15

“Initial note on this purportedly 2061 rated (which is stronger than the 16 MHz Cougar and Ex Pro) 10MHz chess miracle. This box is simply a GK2100 clone (Elo 2021) and nothing more. Actually, it’s LESS, since there is NO Tournament Book, NONE: only Full Book and NONE work. My experience shows that while occasionally it calculates stronger than a 2100, sometimes it calculates weaker. It is definitely a different program, but overall only marginally better than all the other GK2100 brethren (Chess Challenger, Centurion, both of which I own). And, generally, the Cougar and ExPro (I own both) give it a regular, right good ass pumping: Even my overclocked Excalibur GrandMasters, (somewhere in the 1975 elo range) pork it on a fairly regular basis.”

Of my 25 or so total chess computer QUICK START documents, the RS2250XL is the only document that requires an introductory editorial, like the one above.

SO, this calls for a match. One minute per move, strongest settings, Cougar vs. RS 2250XL. I predict Cougar will pull out a 6W 4L 10 D in 20 games. Do I make anyone wait? No...here is game 1; a VERY evenly calculated draw:

[Event "RS2250-Cougar match"]
[Black "Cougar"]
[Date "Jan 6, 2018"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[Round "1"]
[Site "?"]
[White "RS2250"]

1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.cxd5 exd5 4.Nf3 c6 5.e3 Bd6 6.Bd3 Nf6 7.O-O O-O 8.b3 Bg4 9.Nc3 Re8 10.h3 Bh5 11.Bb2 Ne4 12.Be2 Nxc3 13.Bxc3 Nd7 14.Rc1 f5 15.Re1 f4 16.Bd2 fxe3 17.Bxe3 Qa5 18.Ng5 Bxe2 19.Rxe2 Nf6 20.a4 Rac8 21.Qd3 Qc7 22.Rce1 b6 23.Bc1 Qd7 24.Bb2 a5 25.Nf3 Rxe2 26.Rxe2 Re8 27.Rxe8+ Qxe8 28.Ne5 c5 29.Qf5 Bc7 30.Nd3 Qd7 31.Qxd7 Nxd7 32.Kf1 Bd6 33.f4 cxd4 34.Bxd4 Kf7 35.g4 Nc5 36.Ke2 Kg6 37.Ke3 Nxb3 38.Bxb6 Kf7 39.Bd4 h6 40.Ne5+ Ke7 41.Nd3 Kf7 42.Ne5+ Ke8 43.Nd3 Kf7 44.Ne5+ 1/2-1/2
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Post by Four.nine »

More un-pleasantries from my RS 2250XL “Quick Start” doc:

NOTE 2: The pressure sensory board is the absolute WORST of any chess computer I have ever played! From the manual: “To make a move , press down GENTLY on the center of the FROM square...” This statement is laughable and a carefully worded, bold faced cs’er marketing, lying by omission, obfuscation. Every single other pressure sensory chess computer, EVERY SINGLE ONE, uses the chess pieces: stating “lightly press down on the PIECE you want to move”… ALL, Except the Radio Shaft2250XL (i.e., Saitek for Radio Shaft “keep the cost as low as possible” production unit). Everyone, EVERYONE who uses this POS board complains about the excessive force needed to enter moves, EVEN with fingers. I have THREE of these and each is identical: In order to register a move on many squares, the amount of pressure needed actually warps the f’ing plastic housing!!!

And now...Game 2 Cougar-RS2250XL match


Game 2​Cougar misses an early killer. But, given a second chance, Cougar puts together a crushing combination, as if it were Stockfish: Right up there with the best table top chess combos (i.e., TASC, MCG Pro or Atlanta) that I have witnessed.

[Event "RS-Cougar match"]
[Black "RS2250"]
[Date "Jan 6, 2018"]
[Result "1-0"]
[Round "2"]
[Site "?"]
[White "Cougar"]

1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 Bb4 4.Qc2 c5 5.dxc5 O-O 6.Nf3 Bxc5 7.Bg5 Nc6 8.Rd1 d6 9.b3 b6 10.e3 h6 11.Bh4 Nb4 12.Qb2 Nc6 13.a3 g5 14.Bg3 a5 15.Na4 Ne4 16.Nxc5 bxc5 17.Bd3 Nxg3 18.hxg3 f6 19.Rxh6 Ne5 20.Nxe5 fxe5 21.Rg6+ Kf7 22.Qe2 d5 23.Qh5 Ke7 24.Be4 Rh8 25.Rg7+ Kd6 26.Bxd5 Bd7 27.Bxe6+ Kc6 28.Bxd7+ Kb7 29.Be8+ Qc7 30.Qf3+ e4 31.Qxe4+ Kb6 32.Rd6+ Ka7 33.Rxc7+ Kb8 34.Qb7# 1-0

E39d: Nimzo-Indian in book for 7 full moves. Both sides were developing well, until RS foray 11. .. Nb4? RS quickly retreats, 12. .. Nc6, when “it” suddenly “realizes” that the Bishop could be trapped by White: b4. Cougar misses the daring sac 14. Nxg5!! (Stockfish doesn’t: 14. Nxg5 hxg5 Bxg5 a5 Ne4 Nxe4.....). RS makes a mistake with 15. .. Ne4? and a bigger one with 17. .. Nxg3?? GAME OVER. With help from RS (19. .. Ne5??) Cougar now puts together a combinational win...JUST LIKE StockFish.
COUGAR CALCULATED VIRTUALLY EVERY SINGLE STOCKFISH RECOMMENDATION AND AT MOVE 25 HAS MATE IN 9!!!
This Cougar victory was right up there with the best table top chess combos (i.e., TASC, MCG Pro or Atlanta) that I have ever witnessed.
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Post by Reinfeld »

Nice game - and 2250XL v Cougar is a fun matchup.

However, this is slightly off-topic. The thread is about the relative strengths of Radio Shack machines. You're re-fighting the GK 2100 clone wars. That's a fine thing, but it's generally understood that Explorer Pro/Cougar is closely aligned with 2250XL. Fun matchup, as I said, but not very enlightening.

As for the insensitive squares of 2250XL, I can't disagree, though it's something of a first-world problem. I still like that big board, and I like the way it plays, so I'm willing to suffer a bit and apply the extra finger pressure, which hasn't warped my board to date.

Back to the point of the thread. I just ran a game between 2250XL and 2200X using Four.nine's settings (1m/move, "strongest settings," which I interpreted as default.) Here are the moves:

[Date "2018.01.07"]
[Round "?"]
[White "2250xl"]
[Black "2200X"]
[Result "*"]
[ECO "A29"]
[Opening "English/Reverse Dragon Variation"]

1.c4 e5 2.Nc3 Nf6 3.Nf3 Nc6 4.g3 d5 5.cxd5 Nxd5 6.Bg2 Be6 7.O-O Bc5 8.Qa4 f6 9.Nxe5 fxe5 10.Qc4 Bxf2+ 11.Rxf2 Nf4 12.Qb5 Nxg2 13.Qxb7 Bd7 14.Kxg2 Nd4 15.Kg1 Bc6 16.Qa6 Qd7 17.b3 Nc2 18.Rb1 Rf8 19.Rxf8+ Kxf8 20.Bb2 Kg8 21.Qc4+ Kh8 22.Rf1 Qd4+ 23.Rf2 Qxc4 24.bxc4 Rb8 25.Nb5 Bxb5 26.cxb5 Nd4 27.a4 Re8 28.Rf7 Nxe2+ 29.Kf2 Nd4 30.Rxc7 Ra8 31.Ba3 h6 32.Bd6 Re8 33.Rxa7 Re6 34.Bc7 Re8 35.Ke3 Kg8 36.Ke4 Nb3 37.Bxe5 Nxd2+ 38.Kf5 Nc4 39.Bxg7 Nd6+ 40.Kg6 Re6+ 41.Kh5 Nf5 42.Bc3 Kf8 43.g4 Ne7 44.Bb4 Re5+ 45.Kxh6 Re4 46.Ba3 Re6+ 47.Kg5 Re3 48.Bxe7+ Rxe7 49.b6 Re6 50.b7 Rb6 51.a5 Rb5+ 52.Kf6 Ke8 53.Ke6 Kd8 54.Kd6 Ke8 55.a6 Rb6+ 56.Kc7 Rb1 57.b8=Q+ Rxb8 58.Kxb8 Kd8 59.Rb7 Ke8 60.a7 Kd8 61.a8=Q Ke8 62.Ka7# *

For extra ease, you can rip through the game here:

https://lichess.org/i8C720qA#123

To shorten the story, 2250XL wins rather easily, starting with a cute sequence at move 9. 2200X fights back in Morsch-y fashion, but it's academic by move 19. After that, 2250XL grinds out the win, extending it with inevitable Morsch endgame stupidity at move 46, but still.

I don't intend to run a full match with these two combatants, but you get the idea. 2250XL is *stronger* than 2200X, and the margin isn't that close. I would run it against RS Master Chess, but I don't have that model, and my sense is it aligns strongly with Mephisto/Saitek Chess Challenger, which is a dead lift from GK 2100. We already know that Explorer Pro/Cougar is an amped-up version of GK 2100, and we know (broadly) that 2200X is similar to GK 2100, if not as exact, so those rankings should be plain. What matters here is figuring out the strongest RS machine. I remain convinced that it's 2250XL.

- R.
"You have, let us say, a promising politician, a rising artist that you wish to destroy. Dagger or bomb are archaic and unreliable - but teach him, inoculate him with chess."
– H.G. Wells
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Post by Four.nine »

Excellent post. Since I am off topic, this means I won't have to play the other 18 games and waste my time and everybody else's time.

WRT 2250 and cougar "closely aligned":

The SOFTWARE may be closely aligned or identical , but to have a rating list (or people) argue that a the 10 MHz RS is as strong than the 16 MHz cougar is ridiculous...that was my point.
A quick bit of arithmatic says 1.6 times in speed is about 40 elo...which is very close to the cougar-GK2100 difference in rating lists....in short, the 2250 plays just like a 2100.

Again Since my point is off topic: best of luck with your RS rating list.
I have a RS Master which plays almost identical to the GK 2000.
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paulwise3
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Re: Radio Shack strength rankings

Post by paulwise3 »

Reinfeld wrote: 1. 2250XL
2. 2200X
3. Master Chess
4. Mega 2050X
5. 2150
6. 2150L
7. Chess Partner 1680X (60-2428A)
Here is what I extracted from the german wiki:

Name => elo (Clone of ...)
1. RS 2250XL => 2021 (Saitek GK 2100)
2. RS 2200X => 1972 (Saitek GK 2000)
3. RS Master Chess => RS 2200X ?? (not found in the wiki)
4. RS Mega 2050X (7 MHz) => 1927 (Saitek Champion Advanced Trainer/Saitek Travel Champion 2080)
5. RS 2150 (3 MHz) => 1801 (Saitek Simultano 5 MHz)
6. RS 2150L (8 MHz) => 1783 (Saitek Prisma 10 MHz)
7. RS Chess Partner 1680X (60-2428A) => 1475 (Saitek Sensor XL)

So you got it in the right order as far as the wiki concerns ;-)

Regards, Paul
2024 Special thread: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=12741
2024 Special results and standings: https://schaakcomputers.nl/paul_w/Tourn ... 25_06.html
If I am mistaken, it must be caused by a horizon effect...
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Post by Four.nine »

To Paulwise3,

You posted:

1. RS 2250XL => 2021 (Saitek GK 2100)

Hmmm"............I've seen numbers like that before. Hmmmmm...
Now, where was that...now where could that be???

PS

Thank you. Good post.
It IS a GK2100 clone.

Oh and to Reinfeld:

By max strength, I first put 2250 on Selective search and random OFF
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Post by Reinfeld »

So here I am lecturing about going off-topic, and falling right into the trap again. Ah well.

It's maddening that the dedicated chess community hasn't done more extensive testing with the Radio Shack models as a group. Only Nick has tried it, and his efforts have been noble. The information gap on WIki-Elo continues to be annoying. I think it has to do with a certain snobbery and avoidance of perceived duplication, though I understand the reasoning to a point.

Four.nine said this:
Oh and to Reinfeld:

By max strength, I first put 2250 on Selective search and random OFF
We have one difference. On default, 2250XL sets to Brute Force search, so that's where I set it for the game I posted. Random, of course is off.

One of the surprising things about 2250XL is the strength variation that occurs between the Brute Force and Selective settings. In Nick's massive "Final Rating Test Attempt" thread (excerpted in part below, emphasis added), the effect among the Morsch machines was pronounced:
4 Saitek Explorer Pro 66.4 83.00% 2490
5 Mephisto Milano Pro 66.2 82.75% 2483
6 386SX-16 MHz Fritz 1.0 65.7 82.13% 2464
7 Mephisto MM6 65.6 82.00% 2460
8 Radioshack 2250XL Brute Force 65.4 81.75% 2453
9 Mephisto Mystery 32 MHz 64.9 81.13% 2434
10 Mephisto Magellan 64.5 80.63% 2419
10 Mephisto Sentator 64.5 80.63% 2419
12 Mephisto Miami 24 MHz 63.6 79.50% 2385
13 Saitek Brute Force 63.2 79.00% 2370
14 Saitek Cougar 63.1 78.88% 2366
14 Mephisto Mystery 12 MHz 63.1 78.88% 2366
16 Saitek Chess Challenger 63.0 78.75% 2363
16 Saitek GK2100 63.0 78.75% 2363
18 Radioshack Mega 2050X 62.8 78.50% 2355

18 Saitek Travel Champion 2080 62.8 78.50% 2355
20 Saitek Travel Champion 2100 62.7 78.38% 2351
21 Radioshack Chess Master 61.8 77.25% 2318
22 Radioshack 2250XL Selective 61.5 76.88% 2306

22 Saitek Cosmos 61.5 76.88% 2306
22 Saitek Expert Travel Chess 61.5 76.88% 2306
25 Saitek GK2000 61.0 76.25% 2288
25 Mephisto Miami 61.0 76.25% 2288
27 Saitek Barracuda 59.8 74.75% 2243
28 Radioshack 2200X Selective 59.6 74.50% 2235
Those tests are limited, obviously. They were conducted using a single rate-yourself game, matching the best moves from a good engine against the choices by the individual computers. Nick performed similar tests later with greater refinements, but the inference was simple enough: 2250XL (Brute Force) seems to be a bit stronger than the Selective setting.

Four.nine also said this:
It [2250XL] IS a GK2100 clone.


Nick long ago conducted clone tests on suspected GK 2100 variants, including 2250XL and Cougar. The link for that info is here:

http://www.spacious-mind.com/html/gk_21 ... _test.html

Those tests established that 2250XL was *not* a pure GK 2100 clone -- the moves varied too much. However, it's noteworthy that those old tests didn't include Explorer Pro. Testing conducted since then has demonstrated (to my satisfaction at least) several things:

1. Explorer Pro is stronger than Cougar.
2. Explorer Pro is stronger than 2250XL.
3. Explorer Pro is stronger than Radio Shack Master.
4. Explorer Pro is stronger than Mega 2050X.
5. Cougar and Explorer Pro are more closely aligned with each other than 2250XL.
6. All of the above machines are stronger than 2200X, which appears to be a GK 2000 clone.

This makes sense. Explorer Pro is the newest machine. I also love it. I would expect it to beat 2250XL (Brute Force) rather handily in a match.

The interesting test for Four.nine (if he's inclined) would pit Explorer Pro against Cougar.

Never opposed to more testing regards,

- R.
"You have, let us say, a promising politician, a rising artist that you wish to destroy. Dagger or bomb are archaic and unreliable - but teach him, inoculate him with chess."
– H.G. Wells
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paulwise3
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Post by paulwise3 »

Interesting data Reinfeld.
That seems to invite for more testing indeed, because in the wiki, the common opinion is that for the Morsch computers the Selective setting gives stronger play then the Brute Force setting...
I do have the GK2100, Cougar and Mephisto Master Chess, but not the Explorer Pro, so not able to compare them all...

Testing regards,
Paul
2024 Special thread: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=12741
2024 Special results and standings: https://schaakcomputers.nl/paul_w/Tourn ... 25_06.html
If I am mistaken, it must be caused by a horizon effect...
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